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Hello, I have a short question about the Intercessor Sergeant's equipment, because it just seems to be a bit too good to be true. Codex Deathwatch says:

- Each Intercessor and Intercessor Sergeant is armed with a bolt rifle, bolt pistol, frag grenades and krak grenades.
- Any Intercessor or Intercessor Sergeant may replace their bolt rifle with an auto bolt rifle or stalker bolt rifle.
- The Intercessor Sergeant may either replace their bolt rifle with a chain sword or power sword or take a chain sword or power sword.

So, can the Sergeant carry a power sword, bolt pistol and auto bolt rifle? I'm a bit confused about the "replacing their bolt rifle" part, because who would do that if you can get the melee weapon on top?

Next question:

- For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher.

Does this exclude the Sergeant and therefore mean that a squad must contain at least 5 normal Intercessors to take one and that it can never take more than one because it can contain only nine?

 Riverbear wrote:
So, can the Sergeant carry a power sword, bolt pistol and auto bolt rifle? I'm a bit confused about the "replacing their bolt rifle" part, because who would do that if you can get the melee weapon on top?

Assuming GW don't change it later, yes, you can. My guess is that it is there as an option so you can not pay the points for the Bolt Rifle if you don't want to, since they are not free for Deathwatch.

 Riverbear wrote:
- For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher.

Does this exclude the Sergeant and therefore mean that a squad must contain at least 5 normal Intercessors to take one and that it can never take more than one because it can contain only nine?

 Riverbear wrote:
Next question:

- For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher.

Does this exclude the Sergeant and therefore mean that a squad must contain at least 5 normal Intercessors to take one and that it can never take more than one because it can contain only nine?

A intercessor sergeant is still an intercessor.

You would never take more than one auxiliary grenade launcher anyway, since a single unit can only use one grenade.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Riverbear wrote:
Next question:

- For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher.

Does this exclude the Sergeant and therefore mean that a squad must contain at least 5 normal Intercessors to take one and that it can never take more than one because it can contain only nine?

A intercessor sergeant is still an intercessor.

You would never take more than one auxiliary grenade launcher anyway, since a single unit can only use one grenade.

No, he isn't. He is an Intercessor Sergeant. He might have the INTERCESSOR keyword, but he is not an Intercessor.

Names and Keywords are not the same.

Three examples off the top of my head: Tactical Squad Sergeants can't take heavy weapons, because "one Space Marine may replace his boltgun with an item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list." There are two profiles on the datasheet, Space Marine and Space Marine Sergeant.

Second example: The Astra Copywritum stratagem Aerial Spotter had the term "Select a Basilisk or Wyvern model from your army." to instead say "Select a BASILISK or WYVERN model from your army." Why change them if it didn't make a difference? Pre-errata Forge World variants couldn't use the stratagem, post-errata they could.

Third example, the Feeder Tendrils stratagem states "Use this Stratagem when a Genestealer, LICTOR, Toxicrene or Venomthrope from your army kills a CHARACTER in the Fight phase." Why bother making it Genstealer if a "Broodlord is still a Genestealer" like you would claim? This stratagem only works on models called Genestealer, not the keyword GENESTEALER, so Broodlords can't use it.

Also people always forget that you can combat squad, and models can die. There are plenty of reasons to take a 2nd grenade launcher, but Deathwatch Intercessors cannot, while other Space Marine Chapters Intercessors can.

 Riverbear wrote:
Hello, I have a short question about the Intercessor Sergeant's equipment, because it just seems to be a bit too good to be true. Codex Deathwatch says:

- Each Intercessor and Intercessor Sergeant is armed with a bolt rifle, bolt pistol, frag grenades and krak grenades.
- Any Intercessor or Intercessor Sergeant may replace their bolt rifle with an auto bolt rifle or stalker bolt rifle.
- The Intercessor Sergeant may either replace their bolt rifle with a chain sword or power sword or take a chain sword or power sword.

So, can the Sergeant carry a power sword, bolt pistol and auto bolt rifle? I'm a bit confused about the "replacing their bolt rifle" part, because who would do that if you can get the melee weapon on top?

The rules assume the weapons your model has are the weapons your model has. It also looks at the models available from GW. As it is possible, using standard GW Intercessor and Primaris Upgrade Kits, to model an Intercessor Sergeant without a bolt rifle, the rules allow of that model to exist.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Riverbear wrote:
Next question:

- For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher.

Does this exclude the Sergeant and therefore mean that a squad must contain at least 5 normal Intercessors to take one and that it can never take more than one because it can contain only nine?

A intercessor sergeant is still an intercessor.

You would never take more than one auxiliary grenade launcher anyway, since a single unit can only use one grenade.

No, he isn't. He is an Intercessor Sergeant.....

Which is still an intercessor.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Which is still an intercessor.

No, it isn't, any more than a Space Marine Sergeant is a Space Marine.

Sorry, you're simply wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Which is still an intercessor.

No, it isn't, any more than a Space Marine Sergeant is a Space Marine.

Sorry, you're simply wrong.

Nope. It could be interpreted both ways really.

From the 'Intercessor Squad' entry on page 148 of Codex Space Marines:

This unit contains 1 Intercessor Sergeant and 4 Intercessors. It can include up to 5 additional Intercessors...

The Intercessor Sergeant is exactly that, an Intercessor Sergeant and has his own Wargear options.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the 'Intercessor Squad' entry on page 148 of Codex Space Marines:

This unit contains 1 Intercessor Sergeant and 4 Intercessors. It can include up to 5 additional Intercessors...

The Intercessor Sergeant is exactly that, an Intercessor Sergeant and has his own Wargear options.

This. It's explicitly clear the Sergeant is not an "Intercessor".

Yeah, BCB and the others have the right of it. An Intercessor Sergeant is NOT an Intercessor.

 Riverbear wrote:
So, can the Sergeant carry a power sword, bolt pistol and auto bolt rifle? I'm a bit confused about the "replacing their bolt rifle" part, because who would do that if you can get the melee weapon on top?

That is sad part of recent GW WYSIWYG mania. There is one promotional model of sarge without gun, so you get (quite dumb, as you pointed out) rules for it.

But giving DW Intercessor sarge option to take DW signature weapon, xenophase blade, is somehow too complicated despite the fact gluing it on takes exact same amount of work as gluing on power sword, that you can take despite it also being absent from Intercessor box. Go figure.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You would never take more than one auxiliary grenade launcher anyway, since a single unit can only use one grenade.

Um, wrong. They can combat squad. So, you can take two to ensure each half has one.

And yes, while BCB is 'technically' correct here it's obvious it's not RAI seeing literally every 10 man Intercessor squad GW made has 2 of them, sooo...

 Irbis wrote:
And yes, while BCB is 'technically' correct here it's obvious it's not RAI seeing literally every 10 man Intercessor squad GW made has 2 of them, sooo...

Deathwatch Intercessors are not the same as Vanilla ones. There is zero reason to think the RaI is to let them take two, especially since the RaW is crystal clear. There is zero reason to ever even consider RaI because RaI my Ultramarines all have 60 wounds.

This is similar to Blightlord Terminators and the Plague Flail. It is an option for a Blightlord Terminator, but not the Blightlord Teminator Champion (intentionally) because they have 2 different profiles, and therefore are 2 different model entries.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Deathwatch Intercessors are not the same as Vanilla ones. There is zero reason to think the RaI is to let them take two

Do take a look at official DW squad and pray tell me what the guy on top right has on his gun:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99020109010_DeathwatchIntercessors01.jpg

I trust counting to 5 is not too complicated for you?

Yes, Codex: DW is full of stupid copy-paste from other SM books that writer forgot to add in latest, errated version but that final remark was even dumber than your usual assault weapon bending.

What the actual model is modeled with has nothing to do with what is allowed by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
What the actual model is modeled with has nothing to do with what is allowed by the rules.

This. GW are notorious for making mistakes in their Artwork and modelling. The rules are the rules. Pretty Pictures of some random GW staffers models are not rules.

Umm. The Models on the boxes and the website are not “some random GW staffers models”.

 alextroy wrote:
Umm. The Models on the boxes and the website are not “some random GW staffers models”.

Yes, they are. If the box showed a Tactical Marine with a Hurricane Bolter, they can't take a Hurricane Bolter because the rules don't allow them to.

 alextroy wrote:
Umm. The Models on the boxes and the website are not “some random GW staffers models”.

Don't bother. BaconCatBug went down the 'everything must be the worst case scenario' path a couple months ago and hasn't surfaced since. You'll never convince him to apply RAW, RAI, or common sense until he recovers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Umm. The Models on the boxes and the website are not “some random GW staffers models”.

Yes, they are. If the box showed a Tactical Marine with a Hurricane Bolter, they can't take a Hurricane Bolter because the rules don't allow them to.

Being incorrect is completely different from being some random GW staffers models. Models produced from the GW staff, painted by the GW paint studio, and used on the official website of GW by GW Marketing to advertise the specific GW kit are official GW.

If I see such a Tactical Marine with a Hurricane Bolter, I would be asking the rules team why the Datasheet doesn’t support my models rather than criticizing the picture as not legal wargear.

What’s far more likely is a simple Datasheet error, and it’s meant to be per five models, not “you can't use the bits in the box unless you buy a second box”.

Lol @ the Studio models being written off as “some random staffer’s minis”. Hilarious.


Rather than this thread, message GW at the FAQ email and it’s likely to be picked up in the 2-week FAQ if it’s a glaring error.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
What’s far more likely is a simple Datasheet error, and it’s meant to be per five models, not “you can't use the bits in the box unless you buy a second box”.

Lol @ the Studio models being written off as “some random staffer’s minis”. Hilarious.

Rather than this thread, message GW at the FAQ email and it’s likely to be picked up in the 2-week FAQ if it’s a glaring error.

The RAW is pretty clear. There's no ambiguity here-you cannot take an Aux Grenade Launcher until you have 5 Intercessors, not 5 models.

Now, I'd certainly be fine playing against someone who had an AGL in a min squad, but that's not RAW.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
What’s far more likely is a simple Datasheet error, and it’s meant to be per five models, not “you can't use the bits in the box unless you buy a second box”.

Lol @ the Studio models being written off as “some random staffer’s minis”. Hilarious.

Rather than this thread, message GW at the FAQ email and it’s likely to be picked up in the 2-week FAQ if it’s a glaring error.

The RAW is pretty clear. There's no ambiguity here-you cannot take an Aux Grenade Launcher until you have 5 Intercessors, not 5 models.

Now, I'd certainly be fine playing against someone who had an AGL in a min squad, but that's not RAW.

Which is why I suggested emailing in if you think it’s an error and they don’t match other Intercessors in other armies. Clear RAW can still be a typo. We’re still in the ‘warranty period’ of the book, not yet at the initial FAQ. Fighting over Codex rules before that drops is a hiding to nothing.

Well look at that, the Errata changed what the rule says.

Once again, RaW proves to be correct. Shocking I know!

At least we know the RaI was clearly something different.

So go ahead and take an auxiliary grenade launcher if you have 5 Intercessors and/or Intercessor Sergeants in the unit.

Errata:
"Page 73 – Intercessors, Wargear Options
Change the second bullet point to read:
'• For every five Intercessors and/or Intercessor Sergeants, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher.'"

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/warhammer_40000_deathwatch_en.pdf

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well look at that, the Errata changed what the rule says.

Once again, RaW proves to be correct. Shocking I know!

Because it’s Errata you mean the RAW was demonstrably incorrect and not their intent, surely? ;-) They patched it exactly as I thought they would die to an oversight when writing the book.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well look at that, the Errata changed what the rule says.

Once again, RaW proves to be correct. Shocking I know!

Because it’s Errata you mean the RAW was demonstrably incorrect and not their intent, surely? ;-) They patched it exactly as I thought they would die to an oversight when writing the book.

If the RaW was incorrect there would be no need to change it via errata. The Errata proves you couldn't take 2 Grenade Launchers before the Errata.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well look at that, the Errata changed what the rule says.

Once again, RaW proves to be correct. Shocking I know!

Because it’s Errata you mean the RAW was demonstrably incorrect and not their intent, surely? ;-) They patched it exactly as I thought they would die to an oversight when writing the book.

If the RaW was incorrect there would be no need to change it via errata. The Errata proves you couldn't take 2 Grenade Launchers before the Errata.

But RAW isn't necessarily RAI. Their answer in the same FAQ about a Xenophase blade vs. a shadowfield stated what their intention was with a shadowfield, and it isn't exactly what they had for RAW with the shadowfield.

 doctortom wrote:
But RAW isn't necessarily RAI. Their answer in the same FAQ about a Xenophase blade vs. a shadowfield stated what their intention was with a shadowfield, and it isn't exactly what they had for RAW with the shadowfield.

What they say their intent is and what the rules say are unconnected. If they intended the no-reroll rule to only work on fails, they need to make the rule say that. As it is we have a Special Snowflake FAQ which while disappointing, closes the issue for the Xenophase blade alone and doesn't help with any future situations.