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2018/05/23 06:12:51
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
This is the last version of The Hall of the Fire King, the tenth iteration of the list I have taken so far. I, and my local gaming groups, believe it to be the strongest of the versions. It combines elements of all the previous lists to maximise threat overload and toughness at the expense of finesse, sophistication, and the usual elements of what we would consider to be an effective Tau Force. Most importantly it is very easy to use, requiring very little skill, and in my experience is very good at what it does.
"To be weak willed is to be incapable of separating the thoughts of others from your own."
General Strategy
The idea is to overwhelm the opponent as quickly as possible with a massive alpha strike that prioritises heavy weapons and leaves the opponent with insufficient heavy weapons to deal with the 4 big suits. Everything else revolves around that.
Deployment will depend on the range of the enemy guns and my opponents strategy, but generally the idea is to keep the Coldstars and Yvahra together as a pack, with the Ethereal and riptides as a second pack. The Pathfinders and Firesight marksmen sit on appropriate objectives in the back line with their 42" range. Drones deploy with the riptides and yvahra, best case scenario having all drones in range of riptides and yvahra, worst case having a slight emphasis on protecting the yvahra. The pathfinder drones vanguard up first turn towards where the Y'vahra will go. Depending on threat levels the Yvahra pack either advances aggressively, backed up by pathfinder drones, or cautiously towards a flank. Regardless, they should be firing both guns every turn, usually at different targets, and always against targets they are effective against. Riptides hang back on mid-field and back-field objectives primarily focusing on infantry. The markerlights support the Yvahra gun.
Beyond that every unit plays as you would expect, remembering that flexibility after the first turn is generally more important than a predefined battle plan.
Unit Breakdown
Coldstar (Fusion): The primary goal of the Fusion Coldstar is to kill Artillery-esque vehicles on the flanks (T7 3+ Save) or critical targets in the center. The Yvahra can deal with the T8 stuff but the coldstar is there to support in that endeavour if needed.
Coldstar (Plasma): I crunched some numbers and realised that if you used Command and Control Node on a Y'vahra you are increasing its expected average wounds by a similar number to a Coldstar firing 4 fusion blasters into a markerlit Leman russ at point blank range for a significantly lower price. I also started to feel that this list was weighted too heavily towards Anti-elite and Anti-tank, and wasn't as effective against infantry. Although I have some reservations about him (discussed below), I think he is an improvement on the 2 fusion coldstars which I was running initially. He is also cheaper, allowing me to take 3 additional drones. This makes me far more comfortable.
Ethereal: All 3 of the ethereal powers are useful in this list. First turn I foresee using the reroll one's to hit for the riptides given the absence of markerlight support otherwise, and once the drones are dead giving them a 6+ FNP. Movement wise he advances every turn to stand between the two riptides in my backline.
Riptides and Y'vhara: They are two of the best units in our codex. They are insanely tough. As a result, once I destroy my opponent's heavy weapons he usually concedes. There is further discussion and battle reports of my use with them here: http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28185. They are also what gives this list it's rocket ship core. A lot of people hate it (with good reason). But I love it, and it fits my playstyle. Given I am going to be playing Shock and Awe regardless of what units I have, I'd rather be doing it with these than fire warriors. But that's just me. Further, their speed and effective range allow me to deploy outside of the effective range of my opponent, mitigating the alpha that I receive.
Drones: There are 17 Shield drones, and a recon drone in this list. That leaves 19 Savior protocol wounds (25 if I roll averagely on the shield drone FNP). That is sufficient to survive an alpha strike in my experience with some left over. A lot of people don't understand why you would spend 10% of your army on drones. The reason is simple. Drones force your opponent to use their shooting ineffectively. A lascannon is far scarier to a riptide than a shield drone. If your opponent gets first turn, you will be alpha'd regardless. Would you rather lose 200pts of drones or 400 pts of assorted riptides? In my experience 15-20 drones is entirely necessary for this list. They are distributed as much as possible to reduce casualties from moral and increase the potential for my opponent to accidentally overkill units. I take the recon drone because it is the most effective unit for saviour protocols (1.33pts per saviour more effective than a shield drone), effectively gives the pathfinders +1 AP if I want, increases the number of drones that I can vanguard, and the burst cannon gives it a marginal benefit over an ordinary shield drone.
Markerlights (5 Pathfinders and the firesight marksman): These guys have one job only; to each land 1 markerlight on the target that the Y'vahra Ionic Discharge Cannon shoots. No-one else needs the markerlights thanks to the ethereal and I won't be going for 5. Excess markerlights assist the Riptides that are operating outside of the ethereal range, or else after the ethereal gets sniped.
Why Bor'kan?
Y'vahra benefit enourmously from it. The only other useful septs for this list are Sa'cea and Tau. The former I discuss in the areas for change section. The latter I do not take for two reasons. Firstly, the Y'vahra serve as mindblowingly effective deterrents to CC (I've seen them take out 500 pts of enemy stuff in a single opposing assault phase before), and the riptides are fast enough to be able to keep away from Assault based armies. Second, my local meta is gunline heavy, and those who use CC aren't particularly sophisticated with it, so it hasn't really been a threat where it has emerged. There are obvious counters to this (Blood Angels that ignore overwatch spring to mind) but I am unsure whether Tau Sept would help with those anyway. Further, Bor'kan significantly strengthens the Ion Pathfinders and Riptides, allowing them to sit beyond the range of small arms fire, which effectively nullifies a good proportion of most opposing lists.
Command points
The weakest part of this list is the number of command points that it has. That being said, there are only a very small number of stratagems that I foresee using. Command and control node (on the plasma coldstar to the Yvahra), Stimulant injector, and re-rolls. In that endeavour 6 has usually been sufficient. Part of the reason for that is that if you haven't won by around the turn 3 mark, you have probably lost with this list. Thus more CP is not really needed. I have never run out of CP in any of my games.
Areas for Change
[1]: In previous variations of this list I took Sa'cea, which not only improved the effectiveness of the firesight marksmen, but also gave me access to the Sa'cea stratagem, which is a lifesaver given my minimalist approach to markerlights.
[2]: I am unsure about the warlord trait, or even if he should be the warlord. It grants him the ability to operate entirely unsupported, which is valuable given the scarcity of marker-lights I am using, but also leaves my warlord more exposed than most. On top of that there are possibly better alternatives. I have settled on this on balance, but am definitely open to arguments against it.
[3]: Should I drop him to an ordinary commander and take 3 x CIB and an ATS instead? It would slow down the Y'vahra he is supporting (limiting his movement to 8+d6+6+(Y'vahra base size) movement, but would probably be marginally better at shooting when he was doing that. It would also prevent him from being able to advance to the other side of the board to grab a critical objective or support a flank if really needed.
History
I am really enjoying this list. I am undefeated with any of its variations and I think that this is the best of them. It fits with how I play really well and I really enjoy it. I am sure that I will continue to enjoy playing it just as much when I am eventually crushed.
You can see a full history of it's development in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28185.
Context
My local gaming group has banned Tiger Sharks. If they hadn't, I would find room to take 2 in FSE dropping Riptides, Drones, pathfinders and the ethereal to do it. They are I believe the best unit we have and the best flyers in the game. They also remain the only unit banned in my local circuit.
The second piece of context is that there is some dispute about whether the Ethereal's Storm of Fire Ability affects a unit that has moved but did so under the effect of Mont'ka. My local circuit's all ruled that Storm of Fire worked if the unit moved with Mont'ka, which improves the viability of the ethereal. It's no big deal if your circuit doesn't rule that, but it certainly helps.
Gratitude
Again, I'd like to say thank you to all of you who offered advice on this list up until now, as well as those of you who posted various tactics on the units that are used. I very much appreciate it and this list would not have been anywhere as near as successful without your help.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 06:16:00
2018/05/23 09:05:19
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
It's a nice in-depth tactical review, but the one thing I can immediatly see is you have no Troops at all, meaning if you play objectives, you'll have to be 100% certain you can wipe a unit out, otherwise they'll still be able to claim it.
My gut feeling is that while it looks scary, it may falter due to the small numbers. Granted they're Riptides and variants, but once they start taking wounds and degrading your output may drop significantly.
Also, why has your group decided to ban Tiger Sharks? How many do you own to warrant banning such a rarely-used unit?
2018/05/23 09:24:00
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
Valkyrie wrote: It's a nice in-depth tactical review, but the one thing I can immediatly see is you have no Troops at all, meaning if you play objectives, you'll have to be 100% certain you can wipe a unit out, otherwise they'll still be able to claim it.
My gut feeling is that while it looks scary, it may falter due to the small numbers. Granted they're Riptides and variants, but once they start taking wounds and degrading your output may drop significantly.
Also, why has your group decided to ban Tiger Sharks? How many do you own to warrant banning such a rarely-used unit?
Cheers for the response Valkyrie!
In my experience Tau troops (fire warriors) are pretty average at contesting objectives so that wasn't ever really an option for Tau. Without access to a single viable CC unit, and with all our non-squishy fast units being few in number, contesting objectives isn't really viable no matter what we do beyond wiping the units on them. Further, this list tends to be pretty good at wiping out/overkilling units where it actually targets them at all; the main problem is that you only target 4-6 units per turn. I entirely agree that that's a weakness to this list, but on balance I am happy to swallow it. Versions 3-6 of this list took a bunch of fire warriors instead of a Riptide and it didn't really help at all. My opponents all agreed that a second riptide would be scarier.
Regarding the small numbers, that is actually a strength; it all but guarantees me the +1 to first turn, which gives me a 61.5% chance of going first.
Regarding output drop over time: That was definitely my first concern, but it hasn't been my experience. The main reason for this is that the output of all armies drops over the course of a game. But this one is particularly tough so I find that rarely happens. In the 15 or so games I have used this particular list I always lose all of the drones and generally the pathfinders, but at most beyond that I've only ever lost a single Yvahra at around Turn 3. The only targets you have are shield drones or T7 2+ 4++ units that can redirect to shield drones anyway. Straight out of the gate that negates the effectiveness of all small arms and mitigates heavy weapons until they kill the drones (which is a super slow process). Worst case scenario I have the Stimulant Injector Stratagem to keep me firing at full BS even if they do clear all the drones and get through the invulns.
Regarding tigersharks: Tigersharks with Farsight enclaves and the HBC are the most points effective unit in the Tau codex against ALL targets. i.e. they will outshoot fusion coldstars at point blank range against vehicles and any other unit against any other unit. They are also the toughest unit we have. They are also the fastest so you can deploy them beyond the range of enemy heavy weapons. I often play on tabletop simulator and have run 2-3 in an ordinary list a few times. It's pretty horrific.
Just a disclaimer: I am far from the most skilled player around, and I would hazard the same is true of my opponents. I am sure that this list would crumble against a top-tier player. But it tends to romp the mid-tables.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 09:30:30
2018/05/23 11:54:40
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
Quick thing to clarify – you say you “vanguard” the Pathfinders drones up the table, however, the drones themselves can’t benefit from the Pathfinders vanguard rule, due to them being considered as separate units as soon as you deploy the overall unit. Unless you mean the drones just move up in the first turn movement phase to support the Y’Varhas.
List wise, I agree, it is a pretty strong list, but I can see it struggling against other competitive lists. For example, what do you do if, a) you don’t get first turn against another gunline, or b) can’t get into range of the biggest threat with the Y’Varhras?
My LGT list had 10 drops, which included Magnus and a Rhino transport, Cultist screen and characters. Essentially, all I’d do is deploy Magnus out of range of the Y’Varhas (just in case), then, probably give you first turn if I won the roll off. You’d have 2 options. Hold back and shoot at my screens/dreadnoughts, and take a few wounds off Magnus with the Riptides, or, suicide your Coldstars for a couple extra wounds on Magnus, whilst still targeting my screen/dreadnoughts.
After that, I’d retaliate with ~30 mortal wounds, depending on how grouped up you were, which would see the all the drones dead (if you put all of them in range of 1 battlesuit) and 5-7 wounds on a suit – whilst buffing Magnus with a -1 to hit and +1 invuln. Followed by a whole heap of -2ap shooting, and charges with Magnus and 2 Princes. After that, I’d be surprised if anything other than the Pathfinders, Ethereal and both Riptides still were alive. If you held back, however, you’d not suffer the charge damage, but, you’d then have no table control. After that turn 1, you’d have very little ability to damage my army enough to prevent me from essentially tabling you turn 2 through mortal wounds and charges. You would have a choice. Dump everything into Magnus, and likely, just, kill him. Or try to take out a couple of Daemon Princes and/or Ahriman, leaving Magnus to then run rampart.
You’ve set yourself a 3 turn limit, but, I’d probably drop that to 2 turns tops.
Another issue you’ll have is vs the Guard/Custodes lists that are extremely frequent right now. You’re Riptides are pretty much useless in that matchup as they will be hitting on 5’s turn 1 vs the Custodes, or having to get through a 30-man screen first. After that, unfortunately 20+ Custodes Jetbikes will ruin your day.
Everything depends on how ITC competitive you want to go with this though. At events, you’re going to see 3 main things imo. Horde lists (especially at events not using chess clocks). Custodes and Guard spam. Daemon Prince spam. You are going to need to work out good counter plays to these if you want to consistently do well.
2018/05/24 05:57:09
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
Kdash wrote: Quick thing to clarify – you say you “vanguard” the Pathfinders drones up the table, however, the drones themselves can’t benefit from the Pathfinders vanguard rule, due to them being considered as separate units as soon as you deploy the overall unit. Unless you mean the drones just move up in the first turn movement phase to support the Y’Varhas.
List wise, I agree, it is a pretty strong list, but I can see it struggling against other competitive lists. For example, what do you do if, a) you don’t get first turn against another gunline, or b) can’t get into range of the biggest threat with the Y’Varhras?
My LGT list had 10 drops, which included Magnus and a Rhino transport, Cultist screen and characters. Essentially, all I’d do is deploy Magnus out of range of the Y’Varhas (just in case), then, probably give you first turn if I won the roll off. You’d have 2 options. Hold back and shoot at my screens/dreadnoughts, and take a few wounds off Magnus with the Riptides, or, suicide your Coldstars for a couple extra wounds on Magnus, whilst still targeting my screen/dreadnoughts.
After that, I’d retaliate with ~30 mortal wounds, depending on how grouped up you were, which would see the all the drones dead (if you put all of them in range of 1 battlesuit) and 5-7 wounds on a suit – whilst buffing Magnus with a -1 to hit and +1 invuln. Followed by a whole heap of -2ap shooting, and charges with Magnus and 2 Princes. After that, I’d be surprised if anything other than the Pathfinders, Ethereal and both Riptides still were alive. If you held back, however, you’d not suffer the charge damage, but, you’d then have no table control. After that turn 1, you’d have very little ability to damage my army enough to prevent me from essentially tabling you turn 2 through mortal wounds and charges. You would have a choice. Dump everything into Magnus, and likely, just, kill him. Or try to take out a couple of Daemon Princes and/or Ahriman, leaving Magnus to then run rampart.
You’ve set yourself a 3 turn limit, but, I’d probably drop that to 2 turns tops.
Another issue you’ll have is vs the Guard/Custodes lists that are extremely frequent right now. You’re Riptides are pretty much useless in that matchup as they will be hitting on 5’s turn 1 vs the Custodes, or having to get through a 30-man screen first. After that, unfortunately 20+ Custodes Jetbikes will ruin your day.
Everything depends on how ITC competitive you want to go with this though. At events, you’re going to see 3 main things imo. Horde lists (especially at events not using chess clocks). Custodes and Guard spam. Daemon Prince spam. You are going to need to work out good counter plays to these if you want to consistently do well.
Thanks for the response! I really appreciate you bringing your competitive experience to the table in critiquing it! I'll respond to each of your points in turn.
1) Pathfinders and vanguard: You are wrong. The pathfinder vanguard rule allows you to vanguard the pathfinders and any accompanying drones.
2) Don't get first turn vs a gunline (this list isn't a gunline): I often don't get first turn (I've been very unlucky with seize the initiative). This list combats that in 2 ways. 1) It has 25 saviour protocol wounds, which is an insane amount of defence. 2) It is very fast, allowing me to sit back out of the range of my opponents weapons and psychic powers, avoiding turn 1 charges etc. Shield drones also become considerable tougher at longer ranges because you can't use small arms to kill them. Not getting first turn is a problem for all armies, but I think that this list makes the best of a bad situation more than other Tau lists I have seen.
3) Can't get into range of the biggest threats with the Yvahras: First, that's unlikely. The yvahra flamer threat range is 32+d6 (for an average of 33.5) and the ion gun is 37.5. Plus thanks to fly and movement you don't have to worry about line of sight blocking terrain. I haven't had trouble with that in the past. But sure, sometimes it is a problem like with certain deployment types. My response depends on their list. Ideally I would move up to a midfield position out of line of sight and shoot their midfield stuff. Worst case scenario move up the board shooting their midfield and stay within drone support range. But again, with such a long threat range we are operating in the realms of terrible play and deployment, not list weakness.
4) Why would you ever opt for second turn? Like, I don't understand it. Absolute worst case scenario you don't move any of your guys and just shoot with your long range weapons, your turn takes 5 mins and you've mitigated the first turn damage you receive. I understand you want to wait for your opponent to close the gap, but you can do that on your second turn. Games so rarely go to the full time length in my experience, and are almost always decided around the turn 3 mark (except against horde grind lists for obvious reasons).
5) For this reason, I would sit back. Your list in particular has to close the gap and is shorter than mine. I would move all my units back if I wasn't in range to nuke you T1 and shoot you from 42" with the Riptides. Possibly Pop Kau'yon for good measure.
6) You can do 30 mortal wounds in a single psychic phase reliably every turn without any possibility of counterplay and without even considering CC and shooting!? That's incredible. Link me your list + mechanics! I can't imagine anything being able to beat that. Tau definitely can't bring that sort of firepower reliably.
7) I'm not setting myself a turn 3 limit. I'm saying that's as far as my games have gotten. This list works because its main firepower tends to be 100% intact at the end of a few turns, which is why my opponents tend to concede.
8) 90% of my games are against Guard/Custodes imperial soup lists. I am yet to lose against them, but maybe that's because my opponents were bad. You say riptides are bad against Custodes but in my experience they aren't? A riptide will kill close to 2 bikes every turn, almost making its points back immediately. I mean, a riptide gun is S6 -2AP D2. That seems to be pretty much the optimal stat set for dealing with them (only improvements would be S7/12 and d4 but then you wouldn't be getting 18 shots). Plus they are fast, wonderfully tough, and long range, giving them the ability to kite Custodes. If that isn't effective then I don't know what is. There certainly are not better alternatives in the Tau codex). Re guard: there are 2 types of guard lists. Tanks and infantry. This list was actually built in response to Guard tank lists and reliably takes down 4 leman russes a turn whilst taking little return fire courtesy of the shield drones. Dealing with infantry I find is more about tactics than game play (i.e. minimising their line of sight, forcing them to move etc) but this list is still pretty good at wiping them. Most importantly, this list is super fast, and once I make it into charge range it's pretty much over. That happens either turn 1 or 2 depending on deployment, but charge can nullify their shooting in both cases.
9) In my experience this list performs well against Demon Princes and Custodes/Guard (see the above reasoning). Yvahras are in my experience excellent responses to demon princes, but of course one person's experience doesn't mean that that is necassarily objectively the case.
I guess my main thing is that if all of these arguments were valid, how would you actually improve this list using Tau models against those targets? Yvahra are probably one of the best units around for dealing with Custodes Bikes. Same with the Riptide. Certainly they are the best Tau options. What do you suggest to improve that, other than just playing another army?
Further, how are these problems not a problem for practically all armies? All armies can get nuked first turn by a good alpha if they go second. For example there is pretty much nothing you can do to fight 30 mortal wounds outside of playing a horde on the objectives with little offensive potential.
Lastly, games are also about actual skill. You can't just take a list and win. Why this is important is that a lot of those scenarios you suggested come down to poor play. Obviously poor play will lead to losses.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 06:33:43
2018/05/24 09:30:09
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
Didn’t know that about the Pathfinders drones. I thought the Vanguard ability only applied to the Pathfinder unit/datasheet – so once the unit is deployed, the drones are no longer part of the Pathfinder unit, thus wouldn’t benefit from the Pathfinder special abilities. Not something I come across usually.
I agree, that shield drones are extremely useful, but, I just feel like most lists are now setting up towards killing 20-40 chaff models a turn now. Your list has the ability to kill enough chaff, it just then depends on whether or not you have the ability to remove the units behind the chaff in the following turns – especially high invuln, multi wound models.
How are you getting the extra +D6 range on the Y’Vahra? You won’t be able to advance and fire its weapons, due to them being heavy, not assault when running Bor’kan. My comment in regards to getting into range was probably mis-typed, sorry! I was mostly talking – not so much about “max range” but, more about, what happens if you can’t get past all the screens to target the threat units behind. For example, what would you do if your Riptides killed my Rhino, but then my Rubric squads were sat in front of your Y’Vahras meaning you can’t get at my Daemon Princes? Sure, the Rubric squads will get absolutely roasted, but, the Princes then play a significant part in destroying your Y’Vahras. Alternatively, you could dump everything in range into Magnus, but then the Rubrics and Rhino will then kill 1 unit of 5 Drones. Magnus would also likely survive vs the Riptides, and Y’Varhas due to the flamers not being in range.
I’d potentially opt to go 2nd, depending on deployment. With you going first, in most deployment types – knowing I have the +1 on the dice roll, I could deploy in a way that requires your Y’Vahras and Commanders to come out and expose themselves or the Riptides. You could move everything, but then you’re missing out on Kauyon on the Riptides. At worst, I’d expect to lose Magnus. At best, I’d lose my Cultist screen, Rhino and then potentially my Rubric secondary screen to your alpha strike. My retaliation would then see 1-2 of your big suits die. At that point, I’d be happy to just slog it out, knowing you’re only hitting on 4’s (sometimes 5’s depending on psychic – before I start degrading them) and I have a 3++/4++ on no degrading platforms. Your list depends on being in either 1 big blob, or 2, smaller blobs during deployment. My army doesn’t suffer from that issue. I can spread out as much as I want. My high psychic threats are 12”-16” movements, with a 24” smite/mortal wound powers. Worst case scenario is I’m just out of range turn 1 for everything (bar the 1 warptime), but, then it also means only your Riptides are in range of me. If I see you blobbing up in 1 area of the table, I’d happily start deploying in corners/behind LOS terrain in my deployment zone. Turn 2 would then be big for us both, but you’d be relying on what your Riptides can do turn 1, whereas, I’d have just lost a screening unit or 2.
Sure, it’s not going to match your 42” range – but it doesn’t need to. I can take several turns of 2 Riptides nova charging their HBCs into my screening units without any issues. The biggest threat to me is the Y’Vahras flamers. And if you are in range to use them, you are in range to counter. The London GT terrain setup, for example, would leave your tactic struggling, simply because it had 2 very large pieces of LOS blocking terrain in the centre of the table. By deploying 1 or both units of Rubrics behind it as a screen for my entire army, I can then eat your SMS fire for the entire game without having to worry. My list also contained 2 Contemptors, both with a c-beam cannon apiece meaning I can deploy in the back corner myself and still pick off drones every turn. I’d then have the mobility advantage in regards to objective gathering later on.
Yeah, it’s a lot of mortal wounds, but, my newer list is upping it a bit more.
Spoiler:
Magnus – D6 (maybe 2D6) smite, Infernal Gateway, D3 mortal wounds on the closest, but then D3 for every unit within 3” of the first unit. (This is the power that would seriously hurt your drone blobs). Doombolt, D3 moral wounds + half movement + no advance. Bolt of Change, D3 mortal wounds. 9.5 wounds on average from Magnus, if no super smite and no units blobbed up. If all 3 drones are next to each other and 1 or 2 Y’Varhas this jumps up to 17.5. Super smite makes it 21.
This does cost 1CP though.
Total basic = 22 mortal wounds
With Gateway = 30 mortal wounds
With super smite = 33.5 mortal wounds.
Magnus’s powers are WC 8 and 9 BUT, with his +2 to cast and in-built re-roll 1’s for psychic tests, makes getting the required 6’s and 7’s relatively doable. On top of this I have a 1CP re-roll AND a free re-roll from Gaze of Fate psychic power.
Newer list increases the output by 4 additional full dmg smites, but drops Magnus, leaving the heavy WC powers down to Ahriman with his +1. This list (if everything went right) would be looking at 25-33.5 wounds.
Note – in game 1 at the LGT I ended up with 5 perils in turn 1 after re-rolls, but then only 2 perils for the rest of the event. So, I do occasionally do more damage to myself! I agree that you can force the issue generally by turn 3, but, you also said that if the game goes beyond turn 3, you generally lose.
Might just be different lists. Even at the LGT there was a massive variety of lists. However, most of the Custodes/Guard lists were 2 Captains on jetbikes, 3 units of jetbikes and a vexilla with the -1 to hit banner. This was then backed up by a Guard battalion for screening and CP farming. With the -1 to hit, I’d expect the Riptides to kill 1 standard biker each on the first turn with Kauyon, and maybe 1 each with just the re-roll 1s. I’d then expect the Y’Vahras to kill another 5 Bikers between them. But again – if they are in range to do this, they are then in range to get shot and changed by the other 16 bike models in the Custodes turn.
The list that won the GT range 14 standard bikes and 1 captain. The 1 captain and remaining 9 bikes would be more than enough to destroy the drones, add a couple of wounds to the Y’Vahras and then likely kill at least 1 in combat. His list also contained a couple of Eversor assassins which would also add on some damage.
I’m not saying your list can’t beat it, in fact I think you stand a good chance against it, but I believe it would test your list to the max. Your Y’Vahra’s have to move out in this matchup, or, you simply just lose objectively. Again, this also depends on you getting first turn and there not being any LoS blocking terrain for everything to hide behind.
I agree, Y’Vahras seriously hurt Daemon Princes. They don’t really have the ability to survive the overwatch, or do the damage in combat to kill one. This then becomes a game of trying to spread out and pick them off with smites and other damage.
What would I do, in regards to T’au, I think I’d probably drop 1 Riptide or Y’Vahra and increase table presence. Not having troops is going to be a big issue the moment you start playing objective games vs horde style lists. Yes, you can nuke a horde pretty well over a couple of turns, but likewise, a couple of turns is all 150 ork boyz need to ruin your game. Just having that additional line of screen or obsec for late game is usually worth it – especially when ITC revolves a lot around progressive objective scoring. I’d prob remove a Riptide, as the Y’Vahras are needed vs all the –‘s to hit out there, and the Riptide is the weaker version vs the targets we’ve discussed imo. Sure, the range can mean a lot, but, the damage is mainly coming from the other units.
BUT – everything has to be built around your own meta and ITC scene. If what you are using is winning, and winning well, then everything I say probably has a high chance of making things worse for you. It is only when you start going outside of your area when things might need adapting.
My approach has always been around trying to build a strong TAC list that can play the missions well. It doesn’t really matter if you table me in turn 4 in the ITC, if I have a 15-20 point lead at that point, due to the objective scoring and secondary mission points. Likewise, if you fail to table me (due to me running away and hide or something) then you won’t win the game.
To be fair, I’d really like to play against this at some point. I think it’d be a really tough list to go up against, and it’ll require a lot of thought and skill to come out and beat it.
2018/05/31 05:46:29
Subject: [2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
Hi guys I'm new to Tau and I really like how this list looks but how would you change it to fit it into a 1500pt list? Drop a yvahra and a few other bits or drop both riptides?
Thanks
2018/05/31 13:25:14
Subject: Re:[2000] - Tau Competitive ITC - The Hall of the Fire King [V10]
I'm sorry but I don't see this list performing well at a tourney. You have done a decent job of getting around the need for extensive marker light support, but a list with no ob sec is a non starter as far as tourneys go. You are also in deep trouble if you don't get first turn. You can't afford to lose any board control with this kind of list because you have no troops and any tourney list worth its salt will easily wipe your drones turn 1.
Another concern is how little CP you have. Your coldstar is 100% going to die every game and along with it your CP farm.
I agree with warpedpig. Its an absolute pub stomper though.
