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Hello, two units I think the Harlequins really needed were: Infiltrating unit of 5-10 Mimes (Grunt13 proposed rules with tweaks) and an insane Joint fighter Flyer/Bomber. What does everyone else think of this? I will be using Mimes in my friendly games and will start developing a Harlequin attack craft. I just feel the codex missed the target IMO. Thanks.


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The Mimes don't really need to cause a lot of damage but do what they do best: distract the enemy. I'm working on a distracting mechanic, any thoughts or ideas would be great. Thinking the Lias Issodon older rules might fit the Mimes.

Mimers (as in The Citadel Journal 39) would be excellent! I don't see Them having a large flier, it just doesn't fit the style or fluff og the army.

Harlequin wraithlords maybe.
Singleseated jetbike absolutely. - and make the skyweaver more akind to an astartes attackbike.

And I think that star bolas should be changed to assault... Whats the point og having 2 harlequins on a bike if they can only fire one weapon.

I agree with you on the Star Bolas, they should be assault. I would love a wraith knight in a harlequin army, but doesn't it seem slow? The Harlequins are a fast striking force, they don't want to get bogged down and definitely wouldn't win a war of attrition. I also think a fast fighter/bomber fits their play style better. All really good points.

Harlequin Wraith units doesn't make any sense - Craftworld citizens abandon their spirit stones when they join a Harlequin Troupe, and their souls are taken by Cegorach on their death. There's nothing to put into a Wraith construct to animate it.

Absolutely agree on Star Bolas as Assault.

New units wise, it would be nice to see a return of the mimes, but as a unit or a character? Personally I think a character might be more interesting, otherwise you're basically just looking at a scouting version of the troupe. A character that's a bit more like an Imperial Assassin, with some neat abilities would be cool.

I like the idea of either a scouting unit of troupe or a Virtuouso (Mime Solo), behind the enemy lines character like a Solitaire or Sly Marbo. A few interesting additions to this codex could have knocked it out of the park. Maybe something will be released via White Dwarf.

Mimes are conceptually really cool, but I'm not sure what their niche would be. It would seem strange to me that regular harlequins wouldn't be able to infiltrate but that mimes could for some reason. I may be conflating canon with fandex fluff, but aren't mimes the "new recruits?" Surely a veteran trickster is better at sneaking up on the enemy than the newbie.

A flyer doesn't make much sense in my mind purely because of the confines of the webway. When we see characters pop out of the smaller arteries of the webway, it's usually described as being reliant on tiny, hard-to-notice spaces. Almost like finding a way to glitch outside of a map in a video game. Doing that at a billion miles an hour in a vehicle that doesn't have the ability to hold still (unless you give it a hover rule) seems weird. I guess you could like... maybe use bigger on the inside technology to carry around an effectively miniaturized bomber in a little fish bowl and watch him do donuts in the bowl until you crack the lid and let him emerge effectively from thin air, but that feels like a stretch to me.

If harlequins did have a dedicated flyer for some reason, it would definitely be called the dazzler, and it would definitely saturate the enemy with hallucinogenic gas and haywire weaponry to disrupt them while the clowns do their thing. Anything more directly offensive than that would feel like it ought to just be a conventional crimson hunter or void raven or something.

In past fan 'dexes, I've seen people justify harlequin "wraith" units as being "marionettes." Basically, they're wraith constructs being piloted remotely by a specialized psyker. Considering a wraith lord is actually faster than a harlequin on foot, I don't think they're out of the question for harlies. I've always wondered why there weren't more psychically-linked "puppet" units available to eldar. Something to catch bullets for you and your nearly extinct brethren. I know they're averse to full on robots because robots make you lazy and laziness makes you a slaaneshi snack, but modified versions of their existing psychic hookup tech would make sense.

More wraith units would be great.

I heard fluff-wise Asdrubael Vect has some wraith constructs.

Good ideas, but it can be implemented with allies and conversions: run a CWE detachment with rangers (mimes) and flyers.
I actually created rangers with wood elves/dire avenger bits, and added harlequin masks. I also filed down the mouth on these masks (to represent the fact that harlequins don't speak). And of course my CWE flyers are painted just like my weavers.

So, while I would love new units in the codex, it's pretty unlikely, and given 8th ed. ally structure it's actually pretty easy to use conversions and another codex.

Wyldhunt wrote:

A flyer doesn't make much sense in my mind purely because of the confines of the webway. When we see characters pop out of the smaller arteries of the webway, it's usually described as being reliant on tiny, hard-to-notice spaces. Almost like finding a way to glitch outside of a map in a video game. Doing that at a billion miles an hour in a vehicle that doesn't have the ability to hold still (unless you give it a hover rule) seems weird. I guess you could like... maybe use bigger on the inside technology to carry around an effectively miniaturized bomber in a little fish bowl and watch him do donuts in the bowl until you crack the lid and let him emerge effectively from thin air, but that feels like a stretch to me.
.

Webways are small, large, huge, gargantuan. There are webway paths big enough for a SPACE SHIP to travel. We are talking about kilometers big ships...

Wyldhunt wrote:
Mimes are conceptually really cool, but I'm not sure what their niche would be. It would seem strange to me that regular harlequins wouldn't be able to infiltrate but that mimes could for some reason. I may be conflating canon with fandex fluff, but aren't mimes the "new recruits?" Surely a veteran trickster is better at sneaking up on the enemy than the newbie.

You could maybe spin it on the basis of their not having mastered the flip belts yet, so they use kind of stealth cloak instead? The alternative is to just retcon the fluff and make mimes another specialisation.

Wyldhunt wrote:
In past fan 'dexes, I've seen people justify harlequin "wraith" units as being "marionettes." Basically, they're wraith constructs being piloted remotely by a specialized psyker. Considering a wraith lord is actually faster than a harlequin on foot, I don't think they're out of the question for harlies. I've always wondered why there weren't more psychically-linked "puppet" units available to eldar. Something to catch bullets for you and your nearly extinct brethren. I know they're averse to full on robots because robots make you lazy and laziness makes you a slaaneshi snack, but modified versions of their existing psychic hookup tech would make sense.

There actually used to be a Harlequin Wraithlord wasn't there? It was an old model but had a distinctive mask. I've only been able to find a conversion using a current Wraithlord so far:



I couldn't find any fluff about it though, to find out what the justification was. I do like the idea of Marionettes, but how would they be distinguished? Obviously with the ease of taking allies these days there'd be no point of just having normal wraith units.

I don't recall there being offical Harle Wraith, the face is the canopy from the old metal jetbike, although somewhere in 2nd or 3rd they have an orky looter rule where they could use other armys stuff with a risk of breakdown, my dayglo Predator was heresy to behold

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I don't recall there being offical Harle Wraith, the face is the canopy from the old metal jetbike

Ah, probably just a common enough conversion that I'm misremembering then, thanks!

Wyldhunt wrote:
Mimes are conceptually really cool, but I'm not sure what their niche would be. It would seem strange to me that regular harlequins wouldn't be able to infiltrate but that mimes could for some reason. I may be conflating canon with fandex fluff, but aren't mimes the "new recruits?" Surely a veteran trickster is better at sneaking up on the enemy than the newbie.

Spacemarine scouts are "new recruits"?

Mimers in my opinion should have less attacks and maybe focus on close range shooting attacks (grenadelauncher like weapons shooting smoke and laughing gas), but otherwise same as troupes.

It would be awesome to have harlequin wraith constructs.

warpedpig wrote:
It would be awesome to have harlequin wraith constructs.

Some puppet like constructs controlled by a psyker could be fun, powered by captured essences/soul/animus of Slaanesh demons

The question is still what would the Harlequin wraith constructs be like mechanically to make them different from other wraith units?

I quite like the possibility that they could be primarily bullet sponges rather than damaging units in their own right. For example:

Marionettes:
M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv 4" 3+ - 5 6 4 1 6 3+

Power Rating 5 for five. D3 Damage Melee attacks?
Deep Strike, automatically passes Morale tests. Must pass a Leadership test before it can move, charge, advance or fight.

Puppet Master:
M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv 7" 2+ 2+ 3 3 4 2 8 6+

Power Rating 3
Can select two Marionette units at the start of each turn, these units automatically passes all Leadership tests until the start of the next turn.
Easy to cast psychic powers enable a unit of Marionettes to move twice, fight twice, improve their save, or regain lost wounds (or a model).


Very, very rough (literally 2-3 minutes of work put into this), but basically the idea is you drop them ahead of the main force to take fire and tarpit enemy units, while not being particularly dangerous in their own right. So to get the most out of them you need to time their use with when you use your actual harlequins. Puppet Masters buff, but also crucially mitigate the leadership tests that will cripple marionettes if too many puppet masters are killed.

Borchsenius wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Mimes are conceptually really cool, but I'm not sure what their niche would be. It would seem strange to me that regular harlequins wouldn't be able to infiltrate but that mimes could for some reason. I may be conflating canon with fandex fluff, but aren't mimes the "new recruits?" Surely a veteran trickster is better at sneaking up on the enemy than the newbie.

Spacemarine scouts are "new recruits"?

Mimers in my opinion should have less attacks and maybe focus on close range shooting attacks (grenadelauncher like weapons shooting smoke and laughing gas), but otherwise same as troupes.

I could dig that. Reinvision them as just another specialization like the sky weavers, and have them focus on debuffs and lock down for the troupe proper. The Flickerin glights and some hallucinogenic gas attacks would fit their roles as daemons nicely. Flickering lights, weird hallucinations, etc. It's not that harlequins aren't sneaky; it's that they're not sneaky when contrasted with the "appear in a puff of smoke" stylings of the mimes.




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tneva82 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

A flyer doesn't make much sense in my mind purely because of the confines of the webway. When we see characters pop out of the smaller arteries of the webway, it's usually described as being reliant on tiny, hard-to-notice spaces. Almost like finding a way to glitch outside of a map in a video game. Doing that at a billion miles an hour in a vehicle that doesn't have the ability to hold still (unless you give it a hover rule) seems weird. I guess you could like... maybe use bigger on the inside technology to carry around an effectively miniaturized bomber in a little fish bowl and watch him do donuts in the bowl until you crack the lid and let him emerge effectively from thin air, but that feels like a stretch to me.
.

Webways are small, large, huge, gargantuan. There are webway paths big enough for a SPACE SHIP to travel. We are talking about kilometers big ships...

Doors are small, large, huge, gargantuan. There are doors (to certain buildings) large enough for a TANK to travel through. But not all doors are that big, and I can't drive a tank through the door to my house (without breaking the door and a large chunk of the wall.)

I'm not saying that there aren't sufficiently large webway portals for a plane (or much larger things) to fit through. I'm saying there are also a bunch of them that are not large enough to accomodate a plane, and that Jeffrey is going to really annoy the rest of the troupe when he spends an hour trying to fit his plane through one such portal only to find the portal after that entirely impassible. The various weaver vehicles make more sense to me because you can put those things in park and hoof it if you really have to. A flyer should at least have some sort of hover rule (which almost means it's not really a "flyer" so much as just another skimmer) so that the murder clown piloting it doesn't crash into a wall or have to completely land any time the webway gets too narrow.


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 Haravikk wrote:
The question is still what would the Harlequin wraith constructs be like mechanically to make them different from other wraith units?

I quite like the possibility that they could be primarily bullet sponges rather than damaging units in their own right. For example:

Marionettes:
M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv 4" 3+ - 5 6 4 1 6 3+

Power Rating 5 for five. D3 Damage Melee attacks?
Deep Strike, automatically passes Morale tests. Must pass a Leadership test before it can move, charge, advance or fight.

Puppet Master:
M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv 7" 2+ 2+ 3 3 4 2 8 6+

Power Rating 3
Can select two Marionette units at the start of each turn, these units automatically passes all Leadership tests until the start of the next turn.
Easy to cast psychic powers enable a unit of Marionettes to move twice, fight twice, improve their save, or regain lost wounds (or a model).


Very, very rough (literally 2-3 minutes of work put into this), but basically the idea is you drop them ahead of the main force to take fire and tarpit enemy units, while not being particularly dangerous in their own right. So to get the most out of them you need to time their use with when you use your actual harlequins. Puppet Masters buff, but also crucially mitigate the leadership tests that will cripple marionettes if too many puppet masters are killed.

I like it. "Bullet sponges that can die instead of the hyper-elite clown ninjas" is exactly how I see these things working. Especially as they're presumably operated by the puppet master's mind instead of dead space elves. I'd like to propose a couple of small tweaks:

* Lower the wounds to 3. This keeps them in-line with wraith guard. Keep in mind that the keywords you give them might up their durability a lot (more on that later).

* Consider lowering their WS to 4+. Makes them feel less skilled/sapient than their craftworld counterparts thus helping to differentiate the two.

* I wouldn't give them deepstrike. If troupers and shadowseers and so forth can't deepstrike by default, then I'm not sure why puppets would be able to. Using a stratagem to deepstrike these guys seems like a reasonable use of a stratagem.

* Instead of potentially making the harlequin player rolll 3 leadership tests a turn (which don't exist this edition by the way), how about just giving them a rule that says their WS is either 1 higher when in range of a puppet master or 1 lower when out of range? (Either or. Not both.) Gives you have a fluffy, compelling reasons to keep them close to their psychic puppeteer.

* I'd avoid coming up with a new set of psychic powers for the puppet master. In fact, I'd be tempted to not make him a psyker at all. Just reflect his psychic-based tech/talents through the aforementioned buff/debuff aura. This mitigates the number of new rules introduced when pitching using these guys to your opponent, and it lets you keep the puppet master's price low.

* Consider lowering the puppet master's WS/BS to 3+. I know our other specialists have 2+s, but spreading your consciousness into puppets seems like it might not be a specialization that makes you better at stabbing than your peers. This is a nitpick, but it's a good excuse to price him more cheaply. Plus, I feel it's less cringey when you pitch a homebrewed character to your opponent that hits on 3s rather than 2s.

* Give the puppet master access to embraces because puppet string jokes, but also give them access to power swords because relics are mildly less cool when they can only go on a single model in our army.

* Consider what keywords you want to give the marionettes. I'd suggest not giving them <Masque> to avoid crossover with our chapter tactics that may prove too good and to avoid giving them the troupe master's reroll aura. If you give them <harlequin> and <infantry>, then the shadowseer's aura and certain powers work on them that can be very potent. Veil of Tears + a shadow seer aura on these guys makes them TOUGH. And then you add in a couple other powers or debuffs...

Wyldhunt wrote:
Lower the wounds to 3. This keeps them in-line with wraith guard. Keep in mind that the keywords you give them might up their durability a lot (more on that later).
Consider lowering their WS to 4+. Makes them feel less skilled/sapient than their craftworld counterparts thus helping to differentiate the two.

I think you're right on these, I did already make them cheaper on power rating. I guess it depends on how elite they should be; for higher power rating I'd add wounds to represent that they're not as "fragile" as other wraith constructs, since you don't care if they're destroyed as they're puppets, not inhabited.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I wouldn't give them deepstrike. If troupers and shadowseers and so forth can't deepstrike by default, then I'm not sure why puppets would be able to. Using a stratagem to deepstrike these guys seems like a reasonable use of a stratagem.

A stratagem may be a good compromise; but my reasoning for deep strike is that as puppets you don't have to worry as much about them not surviving the trip through the web-way, meaning they can be dumped ahead of a force (even well in advance of it arriving), before activating once the puppet master arrives.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Instead of potentially making the harlequin player rolll 3 leadership tests a turn (which don't exist this edition by the way), how about just giving them a rule that says their WS is either 1 higher when in range of a puppet master or 1 lower when out of range? (Either or. Not both.) Gives you have a fluffy, compelling reasons to keep them close to their psychic puppeteer.

Is this how servitor mind lock now works? I suppose consistency makes sense as they're a similar idea, but I liked that they could potentially stop and start or even go inert entirely, rather than servitors which are still autonomous, just not very useful without direction. If it went the weapon skill route I think it should be 6+ without a puppet master; they'd still function as bullet sponges, but lose almost all offensive ability.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd avoid coming up with a new set of psychic powers for the puppet master. In fact, I'd be tempted to not make him a psyker at all. Just reflect his psychic-based tech/talents through the aforementioned buff/debuff aura. This mitigates the number of new rules introduced when pitching using these guys to your opponent, and it lets you keep the puppet master's price low.

It would only be maybe three power max, so I don't think it should be a big deal. Part of my thinking was to distinguish buffs from general control, so you can decide whether to keep puppet masters out of harms way just to keep your marionettes active, or keep them close (but potential vulnerable) to make them more effective. I suppose it could maybe be achieved by one aura representing control over a wider area, and one aura buff in a shorter area, so you have to balance whether to risk applying both, or just go for max coverage while hiding.

 Haravikk wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Lower the wounds to 3. This keeps them in-line with wraith guard. Keep in mind that the keywords you give them might up their durability a lot (more on that later).
Consider lowering their WS to 4+. Makes them feel less skilled/sapient than their craftworld counterparts thus helping to differentiate the two.

I think you're right on these, I did already make them cheaper on power rating. I guess it depends on how elite they should be; for higher power rating I'd add wounds to represent that they're not as "fragile" as other wraith constructs, since you don't care if they're destroyed as they're puppets, not inhabited.

The fact that they're inhabited is why craftworlders go to such great lengths to ensure wraith bodies are as durable as possible though. If I were ghost and I found out that harlequins put more care into keeping a psychic receiver in a puppet more durable than my grandson had put into keeping my spirit stone safe, I'd be having a chat with said grandson.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I wouldn't give them deepstrike. If troupers and shadowseers and so forth can't deepstrike by default, then I'm not sure why puppets would be able to. Using a stratagem to deepstrike these guys seems like a reasonable use of a stratagem.

A stratagem may be a good compromise; but my reasoning for deep strike is that as puppets you don't have to worry as much about them not surviving the trip through the web-way, meaning they can be dumped ahead of a force (even well in advance of it arriving), before activating once the puppet master arrives.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The fact that they're inhabited is why craftworlders go to such great lengths to ensure wraith bodies are as durable as possible though. If I were ghost and I found out that harlequins put more care into keeping a psychic receiver in a puppet more durable than my grandson had put into keeping my spirit stone safe, I'd be having a chat with said grandson.

Sure, I'm not suggesting they'd actually be more durable as such, but remember that casualties in 40k don't necessarily represent dead models, this is why medics are able to bring some models back, same with Morale which removes models to represent fleeing; on a regular wraith unit for example any damage that threatens the spirit stone should give even the ghost inside pause, potentially forcing it to withdraw to protect the stone. Puppets however don't have anything to protect, they can just keep fighting until they're destroyed.

Again, it depends what people think is better; for the puppets to be fairly low power rating and potentially numerous, or for them to still be fairly elite like other wraith units, but differentiated. For the Power Rating 5-6 (I'm leaning towards 6) I put them at for now going back to 3 wounds makes sense, I'm just saying that if people think it should be higher then they need something to compensate.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe we're picturing different things. When someone steps out of the webway in all the stories I've read, they basically just walk through. There's a little vertigo as the new location and its physics assert themselves, but that's about it. Your response suggests that you're picturing like... a warp jump or something. Or are you picturing a Mantis Warriors/Ahriman style "let's bury these guys in the sand a week in advance so they can pop out and surprise the enemy" kind of a thing?

I like keeping the latter as a possibility, but also the web-way isn't exactly in pristine condition; there are routes even the Harlequins won't travel, but which should be no danger to the puppets as they are essentially just inert material until activated. I've always assumed that mechanically the reason Harlequins can't just emerge anywhere is either because they are limited by the available safe routes, or because they don't want to risk the enemy seeing the exact position of an exit, in either case you don't have the same risk when hurling puppets through a dangerous route as there's no risk to life, and the enemy finding their way into a daemon infested tunnel isn't going to help them much

 Haravikk wrote:

Sure, I'm not suggesting they'd actually be more durable as such, but remember that casualties in 40k don't necessarily represent dead models, this is why medics are able to bring some models back, same with Morale which removes models to represent fleeing; on a regular wraith unit for example any damage that threatens the spirit stone should give even the ghost inside pause, potentially forcing it to withdraw to protect the stone. Puppets however don't have anything to protect, they can just keep fighting until they're destroyed.

Again, it depends what people think is better; for the puppets to be fairly low power rating and potentially numerous, or for them to still be fairly elite like other wraith units, but differentiated. For the Power Rating 5-6 (I'm leaning towards 6) I put them at for now going back to 3 wounds makes sense, I'm just saying that if people think it should be higher then they need something to compensate.

Ah. That makes sense. I see where you're coming from. I'd still probably recommend keeping them at just 3 wounds though. It retains consistency with wraith units, plus having to deal with a whole squad of T6 models with 4 wounds is likely to be rather frustrating for many opponents, even if they don't have much in the way of offense.

I like keeping the latter as a possibility, but also the web-way isn't exactly in pristine condition; there are routes even the Harlequins won't travel, but which should be no danger to the puppets as they are essentially just inert material until activated. I've always assumed that mechanically the reason Harlequins can't just emerge anywhere is either because they are limited by the available safe routes, or because they don't want to risk the enemy seeing the exact position of an exit, in either case you don't have the same risk when hurling puppets through a dangerous route as there's no risk to life, and the enemy finding their way into a daemon infested tunnel isn't going to help them much

This also makes sense. Giving deepstrike to a bunch of mindless puppets still feels off to me though. The mechanics we've discussed imply that the puppet master loses a significant amount of influence over the marionettes if they get very far away at all. Trying to guide them through warp-polluted webway corridors from miles and possibly a dimension away seems like a good way to lose your marionettes. I'm picturing someone trying to drive a drone or a remote controlled car around the block without a camera. Even if your signal is strong enough, you quickly lose the ability to effectively guide them.

That said, the puppet master and his marionettes seem kind of like a combo package. Maybe there should be a stratagem that lets you put marionettes in reserves and have them arrive when the puppet master does so? So you would end up spending 2CP instead of 3 for a puppet master and his marionettes coming in via this stratagem and webway strike or 1CP if you deepstrike the puppet master with a warlord trait or have him arrive through a webway gate.