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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

There's always a lot of discussion about whether a kickstarter is a 'real' project (something that won't happen without the KS money)

or a 'fake' project (something a big company was going to do anyway, bar any exclusive stretch goals)

but both did share one aspect generally you had to wait a bunch of time for your product

but CMON has taken a new step towards using KS as a retail store with an expansion to their Arcadia Quest boardgames, Arcadia Quest: Riders
(https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cmon/arcadia-quest-riders/description)


they've just run a 5 day flash kickstarter for this expansion (you need the original game to use it and it's not offered here) which is clearly just about ready to be loaded onto the boats in china as its scheduled for delivery in June and did not have any stretch goals, and each region had a fixed number of pledges available for this rapid delivery (although they will be doing another print run for those that missed the slots and for general retail)

they're already planning another 5 day flash kickstarter for the new Kicks-Ass boardgame next month that was originally announced as a standard retail release so we may see this sort of thing for everything they do going forward.










Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure how I feel about this,

I've no philosophical objection to KS being used like a store, if KS lets the projects run that's their choice, I don't think it should 'only' be for small struggling aritsts who can't pull of a project without KS

but on the other hand this does feel a bit frustrating

perhaps its that AQ: Riders was pretty expensive for what was on offer, a limited expansion compared to a base box with lots of stretch goals (and I fear shipping will make it seem even more expensive)

but whatever my feelings the KSing public seemed pretty enthusiastic

5300 people backed for $320K

compared to 10000 who backed the full game AQ: Inferno for $1.71M in 2015

(Zombicide Green Horde had 27000 backers for $5M in 2017 to put the numbers in context)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/26 10:53:44


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Chicago

I guess it speaks to specific company's belief that kickstarter garners more attention then there respective websites? Or perhaps its a pure play to prevent 3rd party stores from getting the items at a reduced cost? Not sure on what sort of distro agreement is in place, would a company that puts something up for presale be required to fill POs from a FLGS? Using kickstarter as a glorified pre-order store front allows them to get around that issue

I'm unfamiliar with the fees for doing a kickstarter, i assume KS gets something when you post a campaign? Is it a flat fee or a % on total pledges?


DT:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k00+D++A(WTF)/areWD100R+++++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

The "real" or "fake" debate, I really don't care. CMoN isn't "big" by any stretch of the imagination. As for this expansion, it was never going to be a big seller, so why not push it to existing customers?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Since I'm against the idea of exclusive game pieces that you can't get after the fact (I've missed about 10,000 Arcadia Quest characters because of this), I'm absolutely against the idea of flash kickstarters that force you to buy during a very small window (still months in advance) at full price, and offer exclusive products not available again. The entire idea just makes my flesh crawl. Capitalism shouldn't be that one sided.

Thing is, my kids want Arcadia Quest Riders, and I'll probably end up getting it. But I couldn't commit any money during that particular week (my wife broke her arm), and by the time I found out about it, it was on the "second print", meaning I'd have to wait even later (November) before it would ship out. So like.... feth you?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

You couldn't put a buck in for PM access later?

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Assuming there is a pledge manager (there probably will be in CMON's case, but it's not universal; I've seen a few small, short-run Kickstarter campaigns that haven't allowed late pledges). In any case, I prefer to buy luxury items when I want to, not when the supplier deigns to let me. If one of these short-run campaigns is open when I want whatever they're flogging, I might buy in*, but I'm not going to throw money after it "so I don't miss out".

*but even there, I've not backed campaigns for things I'm actually interested in, because quite often by the time it ships the following year, I'm not interested any more.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You couldn't put a buck in for PM access later?



There was a limited amount of stock that had already been produced that will deliver in about a month and a half, if you missed out on that you would have to wait for the second print run which will arrive around November so if you put in $1 you'd only be able to access the latter

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/29 09:33:17


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You couldn't put a buck in for PM access later?
Like I said, by the time I checked out the Kickstarter, it was already on the second printing, and I'd have to wait until November. So, I'd pay more for it (full price + $20 shipping) and get it months later than anybody else (by November, my kids would be back in school from summer break), and I'd get two game pieces that were of questionable worth anyway. I already can't have a complete set thanks to exclusives. What's two more?

Plus, it wasn't about the money. Like I said, my wife broke her arm. We only just this week got things sorted with Worker's Comp. Life has a way of getting difficult for periods of time, and making exclusives limited to a five day kickstarter doesn't give a lot of wiggle room. And there's another flash kickstarter immediately afterwards, not to mention announcing Starcadia Quest. Ain't nobody got time for that. This gak is why I stopped collecting comic books, and I think CMON is going to crash, hard, for exactly the same reasons.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Ok, fair enough. I just recall C'mon usually does $1 access pledges.

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

Some companies do seem to abuse the Kickstarter system. That is not helping FLGSs, so cannot be healthy for the hobby. I popped by a local store to get paints and spray for my Zombicide Black Plague and Horde sets. They cannot compete against the KS when it drops in so much more for the price, and they have trouble getting the extra content packs after the KS campaign has delivered, so that can't help either.

Will flash campaigns end up as retail for stores to sell afterwards? That defeats the whole point of the flash KS, apart from getting an influx of cash as the packs hit the boat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/29 15:29:39


6000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Why should companies care about the LHS? Those shops add basically zero value.

   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why should companies care about the LHS? Those shops add basically zero value.

You know, aside from communities to buy and play their games, promote their product, and bring in new blood.

Not every FLGS is some ratty hole in the wall to scare off the normal folk, many can actually be functional retail establishments.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

I think that this is a model that's meant to attract the big spenders, the whales, and the collectors. It's no different than limited edition GW codexes and the like. Some artificial scarcity followed by a big mark up.
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

My take is that they didn't see the store preorders they were hoping for, so they took the stock they'd already produced and put it up for a quick Kickstarter preorder. They then added a second wave of shipping to take additional preorders past what they already had stock to cover.

I don't think it's inaccurate to say that KS is a sort of preorder platform for CMON and games like it while at the same time functioning in its intended role of bringing games into existence. Could CMON release these games without KS? Sure. Would they be nearly as successful or popular? Probably not. One of CMON's biggest strengths as a company is that they really know how to work Kickstarter.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


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Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why should companies care about the LHS? Those shops add basically zero value.

You know, aside from communities to buy and play their games, promote their product, and bring in new blood.


Almost certainly the most overblown justification for LHS - LHS is obsolete by the Internet, and certainly not needed for playing if you have a kitchen table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kriswall wrote:
Could CMON release these games without KS?


Not at all. Not even close. CMoN can't afford to bankroll a flop like Zombicide Invader. If they had gone to retail with it, assuming it would have sold like any of the last couple Zombicide games, they'd have lost big money and tarnished the brand by leaving retailers stuck with mountains of dead stock.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/29 17:59:24


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Kriswall wrote:
My take is that they didn't see the store preorders they were hoping for, so they took the stock they'd already produced and put it up for a quick Kickstarter preorder. They then added a second wave of shipping to take additional preorders past what they already had stock to cover.

I don't think it's inaccurate to say that KS is a sort of preorder platform for CMON and games like it while at the same time functioning in its intended role of bringing games into existence. Could CMON release these games without KS? Sure. Would they be nearly as successful or popular? Probably not. One of CMON's biggest strengths as a company is that they really know how to work Kickstarter.


I wonder if the new Minimum Advertised Price Reduction policy that CMON brought in last year in June actually had the opposite effect than intended,

fewer orders from game stores as actually the highest volume of orders was coming from online discounters and if they couldn't offer such large discounts they weren't going to order nearly as many games as they risked getting stuck with poorly selling stuff

so as you suggest they're now looking to KS to sell any 'exess' stock from their minimum print run orders

 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why should companies care about the LHS? Those shops add basically zero value.

You know, aside from communities to buy and play their games, promote their product, and bring in new blood.


Almost certainly the most overblown justification for LHS - LHS is obsolete by the Internet, and certainly not needed for playing if you have a kitchen table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kriswall wrote:
Could CMON release these games without KS?


Not at all. Not even close. CMoN can't afford to bankroll a flop like Zombicide Invader. If they had gone to retail with it, assuming it would have sold like any of the last couple Zombicide games, they'd have lost big money and tarnished the brand by leaving retailers stuck with mountains of dead stock.


How is a $3.4 million Kickstarter campaign considered a flop? Just curious to hear your reasoning. The first Zombicide earned less than $800k. Season 2 was $2.2 million. Season 3 was $2.8 million. Black Plague made just over $4 million. Green Horde made just over $5 million. The average ZC game earns just over $3 million. $3.4 is above average, if lower than the Fantasy version. It's higher than all the modern versions?

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

You qualified "without KS", so you don't get to tailor the production based on the actual $3M total. You don't have the luxury of Kickstarter to get real-time demand information. Instead, you have to project and produce based on previous sales.

You said that the average Zc was just over $3M, but if CMoN had produced GH at the average through BP, they would have only produced around $2.5M worth of product, which would have sold out instantly, and incurred a 6+ month wait for a 2nd production run, at which point, demand would have cooled and the game might have only added +$1M worth of subsequent sales vs the +$2.5M they actually got as preorder via KS. That's $1.5M sales that that would have disappeared due to the "hotness" disappearing, and it's $2.5M worth of presale revenue that they didn't get to bank.

To avoid that, CMoN would have looked estimated revenue, projecting from previous sales, to give them a better chance of matching production to demand. CMoN might well have produced $5M worth of GH, and that would have worked very well for them, due to incremental copies being relatively inexpensive.

Following that sort of reasoning, projecting the growth trend to $6M for the next product after GH would have been reasonable. Without Kickstarter, they would have gone to retail with GH volumes, minimum $5M worth of retail stock, probably at least $5.5M worth of retail stock. Then, the actual demand would have been seen at a little over $3M, leaving CMoN, distribution and retail stuck with over $2M worth of dead stock. That's a killer.

The idea that Invader was anything but a flop belies any sort of business sense. Invader is a $3M stinker that did less revenue than either of its predecessors, barely matches Rue Morgue if you account for inflation, and underperforms Rue Morgue when you consider paid add-ons. It's the same reason that Batman vs Superman is a flop, despite getting a lot of revenue - it failed to reach revenue expectations prior to release.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/29 18:50:33


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Seeing as COMON has built a company on Kickstarter Projects, and continues to live there as their own private Tax dodge, Why would they not do this? They've done this, either as success, or failure. They get the money either way, without regard to commitment or not. Easy Money is Easy Money.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grot 6 wrote:
Seeing as COMON has built a company on Kickstarter Projects, and continues to live there as their own private Tax dodge, Why would they not do this?
Because they are overdoing it. Anybody who has played the Assassin's Creed games know what franchise fatigue is, and CMON is not only fatiguing their franchises, but also the Kickstarter experience. Honestly, I think if it weren't for the gambling high that stretch goals give you, I think CMON's kickstarters would've bottomed out two Zombicides ago.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Sqorgar wrote:
Honestly, I think if it weren't for the gambling high that stretch goals give you, I think CMON's kickstarters would've bottomed out two Zombicides ago.


This is why I usually only pledge $1 when they allow it. By the time the PM rolls around, things cool off, and it's easier to assess things rationally. This basically means I don't back, but paying $1 for the show has always been worth it.

   
Made in gb
Stitch Counter






Rowlands Gill

It's a fact that Kickstarter, if handled well, can deliver a decent margin for the manufacturer. A margin that gets whittled away if the product is sold through the normal retail channels. This means that a "large" company may well find a certain project is only really viable via Kickstarter as it isn't suited to retail channels.

Mythic Games for instance have stated that they are abandoning retail in favour of Kickstarter because they cannot release the size and quality of game they want to produce on a retail model as the mark-ups required along the retail chain from the distributor and retail vendors make it that either they have to sell it to the retailers at a lower than cost, or that the retailers have to market it at an unattractively high price. Either result is a problem! Indeed, they the retail edition of Conan made a loss because of this, and this is why the expansions are not available any more.

Kickstarter allows the manufacturer to cut out the middle-man in all of this and sell straight to the customer, with no third-party mark-ups along the distribution chain. So without Kickstarter, Mythic Battles: Pantheon would never have been available, not just from a fundraising perspective, but just because such a huge game is not feasible in a traditional B&M store retail environment.

Personally I find this interesting and exciting. It is something that Kickstarter was not initially intended for, but has been "accidentally" discovered along the way. If this means that more awesome games are released to the market than would otherwise be the case, then Yay!

I suspect something like this is behind CMON's decision. It is easy to see how an expansion for an existing game could be pretty much unviable at retail, but work as a Kickstarter for them, given the extra certainty of numbers and the lack of a distribution chain. I can forsee many companies in our niche industry working on a Kickstarter-only model of business, not for capital generation, but simply to enable them to cut out the distribution chain and not over-producing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 09:50:41


Cheers
Paul 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





 Grot 6 wrote:
Seeing as COMON has built a company on Kickstarter Projects, and continues to live there as their own private Tax dodge, Why would they not do this? They've done this, either as success, or failure. They get the money either way, without regard to commitment or not. Easy Money is Easy Money.


Kickstarter might be a good 'interest free loan' source, but I'm not sure how it is a 'tax dodge'?

Insidious Intriguer 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Chicago

 Skinnereal wrote:
Some companies do seem to abuse the Kickstarter system. That is not helping FLGSs, so cannot be healthy for the hobby. I popped by a local store to get paints and spray for my Zombicide Black Plague and Horde sets. They cannot compete against the KS when it drops in so much more for the price, and they have trouble getting the extra content packs after the KS campaign has delivered, so that can't help either.

Will flash campaigns end up as retail for stores to sell afterwards? That defeats the whole point of the flash KS, apart from getting an influx of cash as the packs hit the boat.


My FLGS has actually started ordering things via the kickstarter to be able to have stock on hand. They also allow people to "pre-order" for the kickstarter items, basically pledging for the customer. I've never really looked into so not sure what the store charges for the items. I assume the customer pays the KS price and then the extras the store orders are resold at regular retail pricing


DT:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k00+D++A(WTF)/areWD100R+++++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Actually, CMoN and other publishers do "back door" deals for B&M Retailers, allowing them to sell KS pledges with SGs as the KS price, but typically with a larger minimum buy. Basically, a Costco pack.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Mysterio wrote:
 Grot 6 wrote:
Seeing as COMON has built a company on Kickstarter Projects, and continues to live there as their own private Tax dodge, Why would they not do this? They've done this, either as success, or failure. They get the money either way, without regard to commitment or not. Easy Money is Easy Money.


Kickstarter might be a good 'interest free loan' source, but I'm not sure how it is a 'tax dodge'?


Its a tax dodge that plays fast and loose with the rules. You put up a "Project" knowing darn well that you have the funds and facilities to produce it, yet you don't pay the same tax fate as you would if it was a legitimate business. Not to mention, you can take the money and run and there is no recourse/ impact, or repercussions...

If you want, you can start up multiple projects, and all you have to do is string people on for years, until they either forget about you, or get so frustrated that they just troll the comments section.

Trust me, Its a Tax Dodge.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grot 6 wrote:
If you want, you can start up multiple projects, and all you have to do is string people on for years, until they either forget about you, or get so frustrated that they just troll the comments section.
... but enough about Soda Pop Miniatures...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Sqorgar wrote:
 Grot 6 wrote:
If you want, you can start up multiple projects, and all you have to do is string people on for years, until they either forget about you, or get so frustrated that they just troll the comments section.
... but enough about Soda Pop Miniatures...

... and Palladium Books

   
 
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