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Model-wise, lightning claws look exactly like powerfists, but with 4 blades sticking out Wolverine-style.
So why have they always functioned more like power swords with re-rolls?

Surely they should at least have a strength boost?

-

This might be more headcannon than actual lore, but perhaps there are power weapons that have different behaviors. So you have your piercing, cutting weapons that destroy matter in a focused beam. Blunt weapons like hammers, maces and power fists release kinetic energy; perhaps by destroying matter in a more broad field to create concussive shockwaves. So power claws apply cutting force in the blades while power fists apply concussive force across its surface.

Always thought the same thing myself.

2nd ed they were powerfists with parry IIRC.

Power Fist actually generate miniature hidokens just with such a short range it translates to 1"

they do different things. A purpose of a power fist is to tear apart armor by gripping it and ripping about big pieces of metal. That's the purpose of a powered grip and a power field that lets it make a hand hold in the side of a tank. If you say its for punching even though it doesn't enhance the arm or back strength then that's wrong and I can't help you. They punch in DoW and the videogames because its easier to animate, they're not relevant.

Lightning claw blades habe piercing and cutting uses. They have more reach but all they do is make some holes or cuts, they don't take out giant chunks like when a powerfist rips the front of someone's chest off, snaps an arm or blade, or crushes and twists off the drives and cannons of a tank.

Now obviously the rules could be more complex. The stupid knuckle duster style lightning claws could indeed get both abilities, maybe like a melee version of a combi weapon, and the versions with longer blades or talon style articulation would have a very good parry rule, if parries were a normal part of the game.

pelicaniforce wrote:
they do different things. A purpose of a power fist is to tear apart armor by gripping it and ripping about big pieces of metal. That's the purpose of a powered grip and a power field that lets it make a hand hold in the side of a tank. If you say its for punching even though it doesn't enhance the arm or back strength then that's wrong and I can't help you. They punch in DoW and the videogames because its easier to animate, they're not relevant.

Lightning claw blades habe piercing and cutting uses. They have more reach but all they do is make some holes or cuts, they don't take out giant chunks like when a powerfist rips the front of someone's chest off, snaps an arm or blade, or crushes and twists off the drives and cannons of a tank.

Now obviously the rules could be more complex. The stupid knuckle duster style lightning claws could indeed get both abilities, maybe like a melee version of a combi weapon, and the versions with longer blades or talon style articulation would have a very good parry rule, if parries were a normal part of the game.

I challenge you to find me evidence from the fluff that indicates power fists are not well-utilized for punching.

It isn't just in the video games. Calgar didn't grab the Avatar of Khaine and tear it apart. He punched it in half.

Lightning claws are basically four powerswords, so they need a larger power generator. The powerfist has a large enough generator to power and mount the claw. As the power is being discharged through the claws, I imagine that there is not enough to adequately release on the fist as well.

They used to be less "power fist + claws" in old days. Guess GW wanted easy way to make plastic ones with just add-on claws rather than completely separate ones. Not sure have they ever really justified it on fluff

 Void__Dragon wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
they do different things. A purpose of a power fist is to tear apart armor by gripping it and ripping about big pieces of metal. That's the purpose of a powered grip and a power field that lets it make a hand hold in the side of a tank. If you say its for punching even though it doesn't enhance the arm or back strength then that's wrong and I can't help you. They punch in DoW and the videogames because its easier to animate, they're not relevant.

Lightning claw blades habe piercing and cutting uses. They have more reach but all they do is make some holes or cuts, they don't take out giant chunks like when a powerfist rips the front of someone's chest off, snaps an arm or blade, or crushes and twists off the drives and cannons of a tank.

Now obviously the rules could be more complex. The stupid knuckle duster style lightning claws could indeed get both abilities, maybe like a melee version of a combi weapon, and the versions with longer blades or talon style articulation would have a very good parry rule, if parries were a normal part of the game.

I challenge you to find me evidence from the fluff that indicates power fists are not well-utilized for punching.

It isn't just in the video games. Calgar didn't grab the Avatar of Khaine and tear it apart. He punched it in half.

There's a reason people include that in the list of ways the Avatar dies that are ridiculous.

 JamesY wrote:
Lightning claws are basically four powerswords, so they need a larger power generator. The powerfist has a large enough generator to power and mount the claw. As the power is being discharged through the claws, I imagine that there is not enough to adequately release on the fist as well.

This seems like a reasonable interpretation, except that then the wielder should be able to energize either the claw or the fist section of the weapon at any time, functionally turning it into a modal claw/fist.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
This might be more headcannon than actual lore, but perhaps there are power weapons that have different behaviors. So you have your piercing, cutting weapons that destroy matter in a focused beam. Blunt weapons like hammers, maces and power fists release kinetic energy; perhaps by destroying matter in a more broad field to create concussive shockwaves. So power claws apply cutting force in the blades while power fists apply concussive force across its surface.

Yeah but why the big gauntlet then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pelicaniforce wrote:
they do different things. A purpose of a power fist is to tear apart armor by gripping it and ripping about big pieces of metal. That's the purpose of a powered grip and a power field that lets it make a hand hold in the side of a tank. If you say its for punching even though it doesn't enhance the arm or back strength then that's wrong and I can't help you. They punch in DoW and the videogames because its easier to animate, they're not relevant.

Lightning claw blades habe piercing and cutting uses. They have more reach but all they do is make some holes or cuts, they don't take out giant chunks like when a powerfist rips the front of someone's chest off, snaps an arm or blade, or crushes and twists off the drives and cannons of a tank.

Now obviously the rules could be more complex. The stupid knuckle duster style lightning claws could indeed get both abilities, maybe like a melee version of a combi weapon, and the versions with longer blades or talon style articulation would have a very good parry rule, if parries were a normal part of the game.

They absolutely are for punching and tearing, what do you think the thunder hammer is for, also tearing... you are just making stuff up.

They exist in a world where someone probably forgot what the “Claw/Fist Mode” switch does. Or decided it’s blasphemous to use it.

I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

A lot of the strength of a power fist comes from actually useing it to crush things more so then just hit them. The lightning claws really prevent the user form actually opening their hand and just crushing something.

Lore wise the power fist can rip plating off of tanks like pealing a wrapper, or just completely obliterate space marine grate armor by crushing it.

Lighting claws are more staby staby, most of their energy is going into their blades which let them shred through lighter armored target. IMO i think the lighting claws should be a +1 or +2 str.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

Too heavy to be like Neo and too much bulk in the way to move so freely, but yeah I think they have clearly developed their own martial arts over time/chapters/legions, how much that comes into play though is debatable, a martial art to fight eldar would not nessesarily work on an Ork etc. etc.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

No they dont, im all of the books none of them save for a few fight like martial artists, most of their fighting is like bar brawling. If you had to pick a style it would be more like greek wrestling, mixed with barbarian style fighting with powerful swings. Astarties are fast yes, but it would be like trying to use a car that has been kitting for drag racing and thowing it into a rally race. Its going to perform well sure, but its better at doing a drag race. Same thing with Space marines, they can be agile sure, but all their builds are for strength and power.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

No they dont, im all of the books none of them save for a few fight like martial artists, most of their fighting is like bar brawling. If you had to pick a style it would be more like greek wrestling, mixed with barbarian style fighting with powerful swings. Astarties are fast yes, but it would be like trying to use a car that has been kitting for drag racing and thowing it into a rally race. Its going to perform well sure, but its better at doing a drag race. Same thing with Space marines, they can be agile sure, but all their builds are for strength and power.

Martial arts =/= Kung Fu and jumping around like a lunatic, I know you know this just pointing it out for clarity

Anyway, Deliverence lost has an example of an Alpha legion marine covertly working within the Raven Guard, he acidently shows a move that was developed to kill marines, its described in such a way that I would assume its a type of martial art technique and AL developing such a technique during the crusade is very fitting.

Im sponging what you are spilling

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

Too heavy to be like Neo and too much bulk in the way to move so freely, but yeah I think they have clearly developed their own martial arts over time/chapters/legions, how much that comes into play though is debatable, a martial art to fight eldar would not nessesarily work on an Ork etc. etc.

Not heavy at all, the armour moves itself and they must be far stronger than their weight without armour, but the armour maybe too cumbersome for it

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

Too heavy to be like Neo and too much bulk in the way to move so freely, but yeah I think they have clearly developed their own martial arts over time/chapters/legions, how much that comes into play though is debatable, a martial art to fight eldar would not nessesarily work on an Ork etc. etc.

Not heavy at all, the armour moves itself and they must be far stronger than their weight without armour, but the armour maybe too cumbersome for it

No their armor is pretty heavy even for them. There are numorus instances in the books were once a servo goes out on their armor, it requires a moderate amount of effort to move with the armor.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I’ve always imagined (nowt to back this up) that Calgar fights like a kick boxer, or just a boxer in general

I think marines would fight more like martial artists, they are so much faster than humans and have faster reactions, I think boxing etc would be too slow. I see them jumping around like neo from the matrix.

Too heavy to be like Neo and too much bulk in the way to move so freely, but yeah I think they have clearly developed their own martial arts over time/chapters/legions, how much that comes into play though is debatable, a martial art to fight eldar would not nessesarily work on an Ork etc. etc.

Not heavy at all, the armour moves itself and they must be far stronger than their weight without armour, but the armour maybe too cumbersome for it

No their armor is pretty heavy even for them. There are numorus instances in the books were once a servo goes out on their armor, it requires a moderate amount of effort to move with the armor.

Deathwatch RPG shows what happens when the power armour can no longer be powered, while the marine is still faster than a human, its still radically slower than a powered space marine, the armour is VERY heavy, but thats besides the point, its far too cumbersome to pull off the kind of acrobatics that Neo can do, but he is a god in the matrix, so thats hardly a surprise, physics are more of a suggestion to him, not a hard rule.

Yeah not the power armor does not allow them much range of motion, as i said they mostly rely on being a walking fortress.

pelicaniforce wrote:
they do different things. A purpose of a power fist is to tear apart armor by gripping it and ripping about big pieces of metal. That's the purpose of a powered grip and a power field that lets it make a hand hold in the side of a tank. If you say its for punching even though it doesn't enhance the arm or back strength then that's wrong and I can't help you. They punch in DoW and the videogames because its easier to animate, they're not relevant.

Lightning claw blades habe piercing and cutting uses. They have more reach but all they do is make some holes or cuts, they don't take out giant chunks like when a powerfist rips the front of someone's chest off, snaps an arm or blade, or crushes and twists off the drives and cannons of a tank.

Now obviously the rules could be more complex. The stupid knuckle duster style lightning claws could indeed get both abilities, maybe like a melee version of a combi weapon, and the versions with longer blades or talon style articulation would have a very good parry rule, if parries were a normal part of the game.

I would suggest you've got a mix of wrong and right here.

Going back to the earliest source that seems reasonable, 2nd Edition Wargear.

" The power fist or power glove is a heavy armoured gauntlet surround by an energy field which disrupts the surface of solid matter, allowing the fist to punch through walls and armour, and grip and tear away at solid objects"

The modern munitorum article repeats this duality. Powerfists are a gauntlet with increased mass, armour and stronger servos. This makes the user slower to hit stuff, but allows for a devastating punch in combination with a matter disrupting energy field, as well as allowing the user to rip and tear at solid matter. The article actually specifies that the strength enhancement is secondary to the power field in terms of the "killing might" of a power fist.

There are other examples of power fists also having a functionality where their powerfield can be pulsed, things punched with power fists exploding from the inside out, power armoured individuals convulsing in the grip of an energised fist , etc.

Powerfields have always had a range of effects, although in modern 40k , power swords, axes, and cutting weapons in general act more like lightsabers than their original description, where an impact would result in a crackling storm of energy tearing people apart.

Incidentally, have recalled the 2nd edition entry on lightning claws and somewhat counter intuitively, Thunderhammers.

They've always been a heavy armoured gauntlet, more or less. They are described particularly as such. You can see the Chaos terminator bashing a loyalist [there who happens to have Lightning claws.
https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1449/65/1449652641454.png

I think its reasonable to suggest that Lightning claws are a big armoured gauntlet because they mount the equivalent of four power swords. Rather than enhanced servos , the space is taken up by the equipment required to generate multiple powerfields, rather than a single field covering the entire gauntlet. Either that, or some additional technology is needed to focus the powerfields into multiple cutting edges, rather than the lightning claw being a rather awkward bludgeon like a powerfist. Bearing in mind that lightning claws apparently allow for significantly more dexterity than powerfists.

The conclusion would be that the size of the gauntlet is not due to it simply being a heavy power fist with some blades bolted on, therefore Lightning claws don't get the benefit of a powerfist. As opposed to a chainfist, which is essentially a powerfist incorporating a chainsword, (thats a direct quote) therefore gets to be a "powerfist plus".

Yeah, they were much scarier in 2nd edition when they were powerfists and power swords combined.

Yea, chain fist design, or anything g with an under slung Shooty weapon make even less sense for practicality or aesthetic. Take Guilliman's Hand of Dominion or whatever. He tries to punch someone, that flimsy looking gun barrel gets in the way.

I'd think Lightning Claws have a less powerful power field generator than a Power Fist.
Or since the field is being focused through all 4 or 5 claws on each hand then it is less powerful than the field surrounding a power fist.


Non fluff explanation: BECAUSE DAT'S DA RULES

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Yea, chain fist design, or anything g with an under slung Shooty weapon make even less sense for practicality or aesthetic. Take Guilliman's Hand of Dominion or whatever. He tries to punch someone, that flimsy looking gun barrel gets in the way.

The problem is you're thinking of practicality. You should be thinking of punching someone and shooting their insides and awesomeness.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Yea, chain fist design, or anything g with an under slung Shooty weapon make even less sense for practicality or aesthetic. Take Guilliman's Hand of Dominion or whatever. He tries to punch someone, that flimsy looking gun barrel gets in the way.

I can't really argue with the Hand of Dominion, I've seen conversions that at least try to move it to a similar arrangement as the Gauntlets of Ultramar. I vaguely recall that Calgar can jettison the bolters from those when needed, and its possible that Guilliman's bolter is retractable or otherwise configurable for close quarters work. I have no idea what the weird bit is on the barrel of the gun for Guilliman's weapon. It looks like a pilot light for a flamer weapon, something that has started appearing on Ad-mech plasma gun designs as well.

Without that, I would have said that a heavy bolter muzzle is probably sufficiently robust as to be okay with a bit of bashing about. Perhaps its some sort of field conductor to stop the powerfield shredding the gun or whatever.

As far as the chainfist goes, I don't think there is an issue with the practicality of the weapon. The gauntlet isn't there to do any manipulating, its basically there to generate a powerfield that "shatters" the surface of material, whilst the chainblade cuts through. Its taking advantage of the increased power generation behind the matter disrupting field. From a practical viewpoint, the Terminator Chainfist came about because it was easier to bolt a chainblade onto an existing design.

Castra Ferrum dreadnought versions are simply a gigantic chainblade, however, and the awful contemptor version is another example of the bolt-on approach.