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Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Just doing a bit of research about GW and how they manufacturer stuff. Does anyone have any idea how GW make, print and mold codecies and models for their game? I hear they've started to move most to it to China now and have even started hiring Chinese designers (and if the stories are true they didn't even payed one of them). So are these rumours true and do you have sources?

Finally, if it was made in china then I doubt their production costs are too high so was wondering if anyone has any ideas on that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 09:01:26


 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





I don't know how much they pay per book.

What I do know is that any company does not price this sort of thing based on unit cost, it's based on project cost. So that includes research, development, copy writing, editing, art, graphic design, and all those things that happen before a book is sent to print.
   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Stux wrote:
I don't know how much they pay per book.

What I do know is that any company does not price this sort of thing based on unit cost, it's based on project cost. So that includes research, development, copy writing, editing, art, graphic design, and all those things that happen before a book is sent to print.


I know that but I would like to know how much it costs them to make each book. I'm not attack GW in anyway... Every company gets China to make its stuff now a days. I would just like to do some research into thie subject and determine what they spend.
But on the subject, how much do they spend on graphics and so in. Again, I've heard rumours they pay poorly even for designers. I would just like to know and see if any of these stories are true and if anyone has anything to back up these stories.
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




 lolman1c wrote:
Stux wrote:
I don't know how much they pay per book.

What I do know is that any company does not price this sort of thing based on unit cost, it's based on project cost. So that includes research, development, copy writing, editing, art, graphic design, and all those things that happen before a book is sent to print.


I know that but I would like to know how much it costs them to make each book. I'm not attack GW in anyway... Every company gets China to make its stuff now a days. I would just like to do some research into thie subject and determine what they spend.
But on the subject, how much do they spend on graphics and so in. Again, I've heard rumours they pay poorly even for designers. I would just like to know and see if any of these stories are true and if anyone has anything to back up these stories.


Would you want them to produce all their models in China? I've bought that basing stuff that was China plastic, i don't know if it's because it's for basing and they used lower quality molds or if it's due to it being China plastic, but their regular models with the normal plastic is VASTLY superior (even if it costs more, i'd happily pay the current prices for models over cheaper China plastic)
   
Made in fr
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






I cannot say for certain but if they follow other business models this tends to be the order.

- A concept is come up with by the dev team.
- The concept is rejected or accepted.
- A greenstuff worker carves the initial model on a large scale. This is often done by someone at HO in Nottingham but can be done by any GW designer who is capable.
- The design once made (Which can take months depending on the model and how detailed it is to be) is then 3D scanned into a computer and a 3D program breaks the sculpted model down into possible jigsaw puzzles. Those jigsaw puzzles are then sent to a needle 3D printer/sclupter. GW speant a good couple mil a few years back into investing in micro needles to create the sprues.
- I would imagine these machine and scans are what is done in China as it is cheaper to run a factory. Then shipped back to wherever they need to go.

The cost of physically creating an average sprue box if you take into account material and labour cost only you are looking probably around £3-£25 depending on the model/box. (Obv big models like the Knights will be more). Plus shipping for GW to get to the relevant country. I would estimate GW have around a £15-£20 profit on every box.

This could all be wrong but from what I have seen with other business models and standard business practise and stuff I have spoken to store managers about in the past, this is the process I have gathered it to be.

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Made in us
Aspirant Tech-Adept




UK

Where have you heard they moved most of their production to China? Everything I've bought recently has had a giant made in the UK stamp on it.

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Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





Hardback printing and some FW stuff is in China.

We also know form recent interviews the design team has a lot of freedom in techniques used to create the models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 10:14:05





 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Far as I know pretty much everything GW produces is made in their factories in Knottingham. Sure they likely do out-source for some things (eg printing books), but in general the bulk of their models are UK produced.

This upps the cost, but at the same time increases quality control a lot. If you follow Kickstarters a lot of start up companies have had huge problems with factories in China produce great masters and then rubbish production. Quality control is a huge issue when your factory is half a world away and when you've already got a huge order produced, shipped and now appears with issues that you've got to fix for your customers.

China can be a problem for high quality mass produced models like this because the customer for miniatures is far more demanding than your average toy company or a lot of other plastic products where things like mould lines or little bubbles are often easy to overlook (or by nature of the shape and mould design are far less of a problem in the first place).



I think finecast was out-sourced, but far as I know the metals (in the past), resin (forgeworld) and all plastics are made in-house. Bases might be imported, books are likely printed and imported etc..






As for costs to produce that's impossible to say without going over the public numbers and knowing more specifics about GW's internals. Also note that chances are their production prices are not rockbottom - being around as long as they have chances are that they retain some staff by paying them a decent age above minimum for that field. Plus they might do contract with with some other areas (where again they might work with known names or certain workers with a style rather than always the lowest price).

So chances are you could find room to make savings, but at the same time those savings might come at costs in other areas.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






Pure material/print cost for a standard sized hardcover codex is probably around 0.50-0.80 USD (they are printed in China).

But for 8th edition, they did write a lot of new fluff because they advanced the timeline by a good portion.
Lots of new artwork (at least in everything containing Primaris).
Rules development for new/tweaked units.
Setting the layout.
Proof reading.
Proof printing.
Re-working regarding to the proofs.

There are a lot of strings attached.

   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Esasb wrote:
 lolman1c wrote:
Stux wrote:
I don't know how much they pay per book.

What I do know is that any company does not price this sort of thing based on unit cost, it's based on project cost. So that includes research, development, copy writing, editing, art, graphic design, and all those things that happen before a book is sent to print.


I know that but I would like to know how much it costs them to make each book. I'm not attack GW in anyway... Every company gets China to make its stuff now a days. I would just like to do some research into thie subject and determine what they spend.
But on the subject, how much do they spend on graphics and so in. Again, I've heard rumours they pay poorly even for designers. I would just like to know and see if any of these stories are true and if anyone has anything to back up these stories.


Would you want them to produce all their models in China? I've bought that basing stuff that was China plastic, i don't know if it's because it's for basing and they used lower quality molds or if it's due to it being China plastic, but their regular models with the normal plastic is VASTLY superior (even if it costs more, i'd happily pay the current prices for models over cheaper China plastic)


I know this is dakkadakka but I seriously have no other motivation other than pure interest and fact checking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hanskrampf wrote:
Pure material/print cost for a standard sized hardcover codex is probably around 0.50-0.80 USD (they are printed in China).

But for 8th edition, they did write a lot of new fluff because they advanced the timeline by a good portion.
Lots of new artwork (at least in everything containing Primaris).
Rules development for new/tweaked units.
Setting the layout.
Proof reading.
Proof printing.
Re-working regarding to the proofs.

There are a lot of strings attached.


Ahhh... that makes sense. All the budget went on proof reading.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 10:33:38


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Proof reading isn't "balance" its making sure the spelling and grammar are correct. And yeah some things slip through the net even then *
The rules checking came earlier with the development phase.

Also even if they have existing artwork its got to be made the right size, quality and adjusted for printing to give its best display. Same for the formatting and all the rest.

And all that has to fit into a time-line that, as time advances, gets tighter and tighter toward launch date as its tied into not just other releases alongside it but releases to come after as well.


*The worst modern proof reading (or lack thereof) I find is with many ebooks; as a result of the fact that most are the result of publishers scanning print copies using OCR and then only doing a light amount of checking over the top. I've been reading through David Gemmels books on kindle and SOOO many are missing speech commas at the start of spoken segments.

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Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Overread wrote:
Proof reading isn't "balance" its making sure the spelling and grammar are correct. And yeah some things slip through the net even then *
The rules checking came earlier with the development phase.

Also even if they have existing artwork its got to be made the right size, quality and adjusted for printing to give its best display. Same for the formatting and all the rest.

And all that has to fit into a time-line that, as time advances, gets tighter and tighter toward launch date as its tied into not just other releases alongside it but releases to come after as well.


*The worst modern proof reading (or lack thereof) I find is with many ebooks; as a result of the fact that most are the result of publishers scanning print copies using OCR and then only doing a light amount of checking over the top. I've been reading through David Gemmels books on kindle and SOOO many are missing speech commas at the start of spoken segments.


I never even hinted at balancing. I'm talking about the running joke that the Gw products (codex, rukes, white dwarf, etc...) is always full of errors that are often very funny. It has been a joke for years now.

I have a very similar job in real lofe when it comes to designing (i don't spell check though that's what we hire this older women for... damn she is good! Gw needs to hire her!) So the whole tight deadlines thing doesn't do anything for me as my deadlines are a lot tighter for larger peices of work. Sometimes I get a day max to do most of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 10:51:45


 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Texas

As far as codex books go, they make a hefty penny.

https://www.millcitypress.net/author-learning-center/book-printing-costs

I used top of the line for everything 8.5x11, 100 pages, premium color, 70lb paper, laminate hardback cover. If they are manufacturing in bulk, you are looking at $11.44 a book for that they sell for $40. If it has more pages like 200 (SM Codex) you are looking at about $18.50. This is off a website, I am sure they have a bulk manufacture with a deal to mass produce books and can probably get them 20%+ cheaper than this. Think about your FLGS giving the 20% off discounts, same deal.

TL;DR probably about $10-$16 per codex depending on page count.

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Made in de
Experienced Maneater






 Dynas wrote:
As far as codex books go, they make a hefty penny.

https://www.millcitypress.net/author-learning-center/book-printing-costs

I used top of the line for everything 8.5x11, 100 pages, premium color, 70lb paper, laminate hardback cover. If they are manufacturing in bulk, you are looking at $11.44 a book for that they sell for $40. If it has more pages like 200 (SM Codex) you are looking at about $18.50. This is off a website, I am sure they have a bulk manufacture with a deal to mass produce books and can probably get them 20%+ cheaper than this. Think about your FLGS giving the 20% off discounts, same deal.

TL;DR probably about $10-$16 per codex depending on page count.

You can't compare BOD printing services to real book printing. These prices are ridiculous.
I can print a 208 page book (Space Marine size), with hardcover and full colour for 4€/book in a print run of 5.000 copies in Germany.
I can print this same book with same specifics for half that in Poland and for a quarter of that in Asia. Price per books only goes down the larger the print run.

   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





Yeah but the big cost is in the writing and editing , not the printing.




 
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






 Earth127 wrote:
Yeah but the big cost is in the writing and editing , not the printing.

No one said otherwise. But saying that the material/print cost of a codex is a major portion of the RRP and then quoting a BOD service is just misinformation.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I have heard that with regards to printing things such as books and cards, China actually does superior quality work compared to other countries. Maybe they have the most up to date presses? I do know that printing presses can cost several million dollars depending on size and what you're printing.

I work with some local printers (newspapers/flyers/ads) and a decent used press costs upwards of half a million. I'm not sure what a card press or binding costs, though.

Not sure if this helps the discussion or not, but it's something to keep in mind that having a 3rd party handle your printing is VERY standard practice due to the extreme cost of setting up in-house printing. Buying, running, and maintaining presses is waaaaaaay more expensive/difficult than a lot of people think.

Edit: Someone said it might cost them between $11-$16 to print a codex (could be euros, as well--similar conversion, though). I HIGHLY doubt that their cost from the printer is that high (maybe this person was including overhead, idk). I would bet it's less than half of that at MOST. You have to remember the overhead involved in these things. It's not about all materials/printing cost. They pay writers, artists, modelers, etc on their staff full time. For a $40 codex, I bet their total cost including overhead is probably around $5. This leaves room for shipping and distribution and final retail margins at your FLGS. All that stuff adds up REALLY quick. Plus, this is all assuming a fixed number of books being printed. Additional print runs beyond their initial projections would just be gravy--only having print cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 14:23:23


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

At the same time something like a codex might well have a higher profit margin than some other products. Eg a higher priced Knight or a special character might both take far longer to recoup their investment as they are smaller sales per customer and higher production value products.

So it could be that a codex gets a higher mark up to help cover other products so that in total GW can support its running costs day to day; not just in the long term.

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
At the same time something like a codex might well have a higher profit margin than some other products. Eg a higher priced Knight or a special character might both take far longer to recoup their investment as they are smaller sales per customer and higher production value products.

So it could be that a codex gets a higher mark up to help cover other products so that in total GW can support its running costs day to day; not just in the long term.


Current behaviour at GW suggests they agree with you. 8th edition has pushed a lot of books on people with not a huge number of new models released...
   
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





In a macro sense their half year revenue was £108.9m, profit was £34.6m, and taxes were £7.3m. So at least for this period in time GW made 25%. Leaner years were around 6-10%, which is still very respectable.
   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Galas wrote:
The answer is 43.


That's Numberwang!
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






 Earth127 wrote:
Yeah but the big cost is in the writing and editing , not the printing.


Don't forget shipping. Not by ship, that's the cheap part, but shipping to distributors - generally by truck - can get expensive. I have no doubt GW is making a profit off books, but a lot of that has to be from the volume they can push, as it's the set up costs for printing that cost the most - print lots, and you drive the per-unit cost down pretty quick.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 16:13:09


   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Okay, but what about that woman in china they hired for FW but then never payed? Anyone got a source for that story?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 John Prins wrote:
 Earth127 wrote:
Yeah but the big cost is in the writing and editing , not the printing.


Don't forget shipping. Not by ship, that's the cheap part, but shipping to distributors - generally by truck - can get expensive.


And warehousing.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 lolman1c wrote:
I hear they've started to move most to it to China

You know you can just look at the box to see where it's made?

Some of the scenery products and bases have been made in China. All of that stuff is very obviously worse quality.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 19:27:08


 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




The marginal costs are low but the fixed costs (molds, factories, labor, distribution networks, retail spaces, etc.) are quite large. They've got a 26% net margin, which is quite healthy: GW is a profitable company these days.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 19:10:16


 
   
Made in us
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 lolman1c wrote:
Okay, but what about that woman in china they hired for FW but then never payed? Anyone got a source for that story?


Nope.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Cheeslord wrote:
 Overread wrote:
At the same time something like a codex might well have a higher profit margin than some other products. Eg a higher priced Knight or a special character might both take far longer to recoup their investment as they are smaller sales per customer and higher production value products.

So it could be that a codex gets a higher mark up to help cover other products so that in total GW can support its running costs day to day; not just in the long term.


Current behaviour at GW suggests they agree with you. 8th edition has pushed a lot of books on people with not a huge number of new models released...


Aye but don't forget GW has never rolled out codex as fast as they have this time; despite their size I suspect it would have been impossible to put out new models for each 40K army alongside the codex for 8th edition without shutting down work on all the other games. Especially considering how GW has been taking on more Bloodbowl and Necromunda and and Shadspire now Titanicus.

And GW also has a lot of long term fans who are at a point where their bulk investment in their chosen army(ies) is in the past. Older customers who are now likely only to buy the occasional model and rules.

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Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

FW DID have a facility in Shanghai. Ostensibly to make it easier to get their product to SEA/Oceania, so that UK could focus on Europe/Americas

They shut it down. The "fakes" increased when it was operational. Not so much "recasts" as just "Foreign orders" produced when the FW staff went home after shift. It's not an uncommon thing in Asia. It's also why it's the home of "knock offs".


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