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- detachments are unique and max 3,
- max 2 flyers & max 1 lord of war,
- max 4 same unit troops & max 3 same units(dataslates) non troops,
It is a nice glass scalpel list that could do wonderful against some armies but could struggle against others. I really like shadowseers but I might drop one and remove a unit of rangers so that I could include a unit grotesques.
In most cases I probably 'cloudstrike' the hemlock and deep strike the mandrakes and keep the HQ behind the -2 to hit rangers. Not much to shoot at if the enemy got first turn. Doom in combination with rangers and mandrakes shooting really takes down any big target and leadership could be dropping fast and sending infantry models home with their tale between their legs. Could this work or is it a disaster?
I am curious. What type of army would this list be good against? 50 rangers is overkill for literally any matchup. You have no tools against mass hordes, no tools to deal with heavy armor, your list isnt fast, apart from the solitare.
I just don't understand what you are going for here. I guess you have ok leadership debuffs but kill the one hemlock and that plan goes down the toilet as well.
Rangers and Mandrakes are purely situational.
Don't take them as backbone of your army.
Great advice.
Manfried wrote:I am curious. What type of army would this list be good against? 50 rangers is overkill for literally any matchup. You have no tools against mass hordes, no tools to deal with heavy armor, your list isnt fast, apart from the solitare.
I just don't understand what you are going for here. I guess you have ok leadership debuffs but kill the one hemlock and that plan goes down the toilet as well.
No tools against hordes? You do know that mandrakes shoot and also got 3 attacks each.
No tools to deal with heavy armor? I got a lot of mortal wounds flying around. Yes smite gets more difficult after a few times but that's why i'am also bringing a lot of other mortal wound psychic powers.
I think this list could take on elite-armylists but I'am not sure about a full drukhari skimmer list or mass hordes. Also an ealdari list with lots of -1 to hit modifiers could also bite me in the ass. Problem with a glass-scalpel lists, if it goes badly then it's hard to come back.
For example, let's take one of wuestenfux armylists:
I would probably deploy 2 ranger units in the back with all the HQ behind them and two ranger units a bit further forward to make sure the deathcompany cannot deepstrike close by. Hemlock uses cloudstrike and stays in reserves. I only got two ranger units forward and if the twin assault cannons start shooting at them I could use the 'pathfinder' stratagem to make sure the first unit only get's hit on a 6+, and I could give the second unit 'lightning reflexes' and that would mean a -3 to hit so that's also 6+ to hit. Then it all depends on the death company units. I need to push them back even if it means sacrificing two ranger units but after that the amount of mortal wounds could take them down easily. Deep striking the hemlock and put fortune on it in combination with lightning reflexes could also mean that lascannon's are unable to take it out in one turn.
Against such an army i would like my chances...until I make a big mistake and one unit of deathcompany take down 6+ characters and my whole army...
For example, let's take one of wuestenfux armylists:
Thanks for taking one of my army lists.
The Predators would eventually be overkill vs your army as you have one tank (flyer). The meta in my area has changed a bit so that the Predators would be questionable, today.
If my army gets first turn, I'll be close to your army on top of turn 2 (able to charge), while your deepstrikers would need to wait until the bottom of turn 2.
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For example, let's take one of wuestenfux armylists:
Thanks for taking one of my army lists.
The Predators would eventually be overkill vs your army as you have one tank (flyer). The meta in my area has changed a bit so that the Predators would be questionable, today.
If my army gets first turn, I'll be close to your army on top of turn 2 (able to charge), while your deepstrikers would need to wait until the bottom of turn 2.
I would not care. I would gladly sacrifice 2/3 ranger units if it means that my army could do the following:
My toolbox:
- Move characters within 18 inch.
- Move solitair between both units very close.
psychic phase:
Farseer: doom 1 unit and fortune on hemlock
Farseer: smite (or mind war if character is also close) and executioner
shadowseer 1: smite and shards of light
shadowseer 2: fogs of dreams and veil of tears on solitaire/one deathcompany unit (both -1 to hit)
shadowseer 3: smite and mirror of minds
shooting phase:
At least 30 sniper rangers shoot the (doom) unit.
3x shadowseer phantasm grenade launcher (solitaire -1 leadership + possible horrify -1 leadership + possible shards of light -1 leadership) So that's 3x 2D and if it beats the leadership thats another d3 mortal wounds each.
Assault: anything left I could assault with the solitaire.
psychic phase: maybe one unit could use the stratagem to auto-win morale test but the other unit (if there is one) is screwed.
No, I don't think I would mind fighting first turn deathcompany units.
I agree with the other posters. Way to many rangers. They really excel as screens and objective campers but just don't do enough to be your line infantry. 10 rangers will put 1 mw a turn plus force a few armor saves. Pretty anemic. 500 points do do 4 mw and as many armor saves will leave you wanting against most opponents, not even just a few
I would drop down to 3x5. Or even 2x5 and a big unit of guardians to webway assault. I might also drop one of the large mandrake squads and with the points from above buy a giant grot squad to hide your characters behind as they advance up to the midfield.
I also think so many psychers might be excessive. Each power is great but there are diminishing returns to all of them and not all are always great. What is so important that you want fortune on, for example? I might change one of the the farmers for a spiritseer for jinx, which is always amazing. He could still smite too! . 3 shadow seers also seems excessive, although I'm less sure how to mix it up. maybe a patrol or vanguard with some death jesters for more ld things?
Frowny wrote: I agree with the other posters. Way to many rangers. They really excel as screens and objective campers but just don't do enough to be your line infantry. 10 rangers will put 1 mw a turn plus force a few armor saves. Pretty anemic. 500 points do do 4 mw and as many armor saves will leave you wanting against most opponents, not even just a few
I would drop down to 3x5. Or even 2x5 and a big unit of guardians to webway assault. I might also drop one of the large mandrake squads and with the points from above buy a giant grot squad to hide your characters behind as they advance up to the midfield.
I also think so many psychers might be excessive. Each power is great but there are diminishing returns to all of them and not all are always great. What is so important that you want fortune on, for example? I might change one of the the farmers for a spiritseer for jinx, which is always amazing. He could still smite too! . 3 shadow seers also seems excessive, although I'm less sure how to mix it up. maybe a patrol or vanguard with some death jesters for more ld things?
Thanks for the input. I do understand your point about rangers put I really like them in combination with mandrakes + doom.
I've been thinking about dropping the 4th ranger unit + a shadowseer but then I need to go for a patrol detachment because I cannot take another vanguard detachment (tournament rules). I really like grotesques but now I need a harlequin troupe so maybe want to get a big unit of them instead. I use fortune for my hemlock but if I don't need it then I just use smite. Not a big fan of the single spiritseer/warlock because the got a price hike and it's harder to pull of those psychic powers(7) compared to a farseer.
I think you should turn the executioner farseer into a bike warlock for jinx. Giving someone -1 to their save or giving a unit of yours +1 is just soo good.
It also will give you like 20 or so points. I think you should drop the deathjester and add a single troupe master. Give him the 3++ from shooting relic maybe.
With those changes you can make the patrol a supreme command again and get +1 CP. The vexator mask is good but I think the troupe master with a 3++ is really solid too. Your call
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I think you should turn the executioner farseer into a bike warlock for jinx. Giving someone -1 to their save or giving a unit of yours +1 is just soo good.
It also will give you like 20 or so points. I think you should drop the deathjester and add a single troupe master. Give him the 3++ from shooting relic maybe.
With those changes you can make the patrol a supreme command again and get +1 CP. The vexator mask is good but I think the troupe master with a 3++ is really solid too. Your call
Thanks for the input..
I do think I'am going to drop the deathjester and add a warlock. Normally I would go for protect/jinx (no-brainer) but in this list I'am actually not that sure. I might be better of with drain and enervate (warlock and hemlock) because my biggest concern are mass infantry. My harlequin troupe needs all the support to fight of those big infantry units and in combination with a shadowseer -1 to wound bubble and the vexator mask the can really stay in the battle for a long time. I can only use protect on craftworld units and jinx is not that important with this amount of mortal wounds.
But then again...a deathjester gives me the ability to redeploy him and a shadowseer + solitaire (stratagem). Got to think about this...
I have been thinking about the troupe master but just like the solitaire their great for messing up gunlines but the also die very quick. I could just as well use these points for the harlequin troupe and be a bigger disturbance in the enemy gunline (double move with twilight pathway) and use a stratagem for a 3++ inv save on the whole unit. I also need at least one big close combat unit to fight of those fast infantry close combat units (I'am looking at you genestealers!)
A lot of players also underestimate the ability for harlequins to block 'fall back' moves. With double movement (+advance) and ignoring models and terrain, the can lock in models after close combat and make sure the cannot fall back. Also nice that harlequin troupes are troop choice so I could take (or contest) objectives in the enemies zone.
- I need that warlock so that I can use the 'warlock and farseer got +1 psychic test) stratagem.
- Dropped the death jester because it's doing nothing against knights.
- I believe I can add an enigma (suit of hidden knifes) with the stratagem even when I didn't pick a harlequin warlord. Lot of discussion about this but I asked the tournament organisation and waiting for reply.
- Heamonoculus and drukhari warriors means no 'prophets of the flesh' bonus but I don't mind. That grenade launcher could add another d3 mortal wounds with the stratagem.
I like my damage output against knights but 3 knights with 3 custodes jetbike captains is still tough to handle. I rather face a full knight list because the cant 'fly' and it's easy to block their movement.
I might struggle with hordes but poxwalkers isn't a real thing anymore and mass cultist really need that fearless abbaddon, and he cannot walk in the open for too long with 25 rangers in the neighbourhood.
I think I might fear drukhari skimmers the most. Cheap and fast units that can take a first turn punch and wreck me after that.
Let's go with 30 rangers.
30 shots. 20 hit. 10 wound with 2 s for two MWs.
then the mandrakes:
60 shots, 40 hit. 20 wound, with 3 to 4 MWs.
The rangers kill 5 to 6 infantry from MWs and 3.5 from the ranger guns and 10 from the mandrakes. Nearly 2 full squads of marine MEqs.
'Tis not impressive IMHO. Add some Doom, and you assuredly nail a 10 man crew of MEqs and likely the second ... maybe even a 5W character, should your opponent yield one up. But what about porky big units, like Cast robots? Morty? Maggy? DPs? Vehicles? Imp Knights?
You're shelling out 6 Mortal wounds, but that's not enough. The S4 is falling far shorter with these higher Toughness units and having 60 of your dudes shell out to bang one carnifex or a DP or a rhino ....
Have you actually ran this list or is this Theory Hammer?
shogun wrote: I might struggle with hordes but poxwalkers isn't a real thing anymore and mass cultist really need that fearless abbaddon, and he cannot walk in the open for too long with 25 rangers in the neighbourhood.
I have not seen Abbie in a very long time, however, Tide of Traitors or the 2 CP auto-Morale pass bypasses needing Abbie's bubble. Plus, I play in Southern Calif's tourney scene, where poxies and cultists continue to be a mainstay, so I don't think your point is valid here.
shogun wrote: I think I might fear drukhari skimmers the most. Cheap and fast units that can take a first turn punch and wreck me after that.
I might be prejudiced, because I have brought my 5e Dark Eldar back to its glorious 8e incarnation ... and yes, I do think drukhari wyches and 24 blaster/DLs would make short work of this.
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Let's go with 30 rangers.
30 shots. 20 hit. 10 wound with 2 s for two MWs.
then the mandrakes:
60 shots, 40 hit. 20 wound, with 3 to 4 MWs.
The rangers kill 5 to 6 infantry from MWs and 3.5 from the ranger guns and 10 from the mandrakes. Nearly 2 full squads of marine MEqs.
'Tis not impressive IMHO. Add some Doom, and you assuredly nail a 10 man crew of MEqs and likely the second ... maybe even a 5W character, should your opponent yield one up.
If you think I got this amount of rangers for the shooting, you are mistaken.
First: they're my "-3 or only hit on 6's" shield that prevents enemy units from shooting at my characters and keeping alive in the proces because it's hard to do a lot of damage against these units with all these -1 to hit modifiers.
Second: they could actually be used as a shield to block incoming close combat units or deploy even outside 9 inch from enemy units to block movement.
Third: 25 rangers could actually be a threat to important characters with sniper shooting.
Fourth: with doom the can do a 'nice' amount of mortal wounds. But also regular wounds because the mortal wounds are bonus wounds upon the regular 'hits'.
I think you should not just simply look at the damage output from a single unit, but look at how the whole army works together.
Brothererekose wrote: But what about porky big units, like Cast robots? Morty? Maggy? DPs? Vehicles? Imp Knights?
You're shelling out 6 Mortal wounds, but that's not enough. The S4 is falling far shorter with these higher Toughness units and having 60 of your dudes shell out to bang one carnifex or a DP or a rhino ....
Porky units? My whole list is designed to take down porky units so thats not a big deal.
shogun wrote: I might struggle with hordes but poxwalkers isn't a real thing anymore and mass cultist really need that fearless abbaddon, and he cannot walk in the open for too long with 25 rangers in the neighbourhood.
I have not seen Abbie in a very long time, however, Tide of Traitors or the 2 CP auto-Morale pass bypasses needing Abbie's bubble. Plus, I play in Southern Calif's tourney scene, where poxies and cultists continue to be a mainstay, so I don't think your point is valid here.
I'am just saying that I could snipe down abbaddon if he shows his face and that I don't expect a lot of poxies with the full upgrades and stuff (cloud of flies etc..) because the new zombies are not free anymore. I might see some poxies but rather expect a bunch of cultist instead.
shogun wrote: I think I might fear drukhari skimmers the most. Cheap and fast units that can take a first turn punch and wreck me after that.
I might be prejudiced, because I have brought my 5e Dark Eldar back to its glorious 8e incarnation ... and yes, I do think drukhari wyches and 24 blaster/DLs would make short work of this.
Blasters and DL's? I only got one flyer and the rest are all single model units and characters. Most times I cloudstrike/deepstrike my hemlock and try to put fortune on it. I don't fear blasters/Dl's. Also venom cannons need to get close for rapid fire and thats a perfect range for my psykers.
But drukhari also suffers from -1 to hit modifiers and suffers even more from ranger and mandrake shooting because of the toughness 5 and 4+ save skimmers.
Suit of the hidden knives is a waste. You can only force your opponent to fight you with models that are within an inch of the Solitaire. Smart opponents won't pile in. It's also reliant on 2CP and/or a boat load of psychic powers when you'd probably be better off casting smites.
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mokoshkana wrote: Suit of the hidden knives is a waste. You can only force your opponent to fight you with models that are within an inch of the Solitaire. Smart opponents won't pile in. It's also reliant on 2CP and/or a boat load of psychic powers when you'd probably be better off casting smites.
It's situational and works better against models with multibel attacks and this boatload of psychic powers are not a waist and can be useful apart from the suit of hidden knifes.
I first try drain with hemlock and then fog of dreams + veil of tears with the shadowseer. I could also use 'lightning refexes' but only as a last resort because that's gonna cost me 2CP. A knight that can only kick (12 attacks) could take about 7 mortal wounds with -3 to hit modifiers. Could be worth it to finish it off, for example, and much more reliable then d3 mortal wound - smites.
I'am just waiting for that moment when two badly wounded knight castellan/valiant's are standing close to each other,
Solitair blitz forward,
psychic powers and stratagem's to give one knights -2 to hit and the other -3 to hit,
Solitair uses the silken knife stratagem (no overwatch),
Multicharge both knights within 1 inch,
Enemy players slaps himself in the face "why did I put those knights so close together"!!
Scratch the -2 to hit knight with the solitaire fingernails and maybe deliver 2 wounds,
Both knights attack with 12 attacks and but miss sensationally!,
Both knights get 6+ mortal wounds in return and die!
Solitaire walks away from the double nova explosions and doesn't look back at the explosion! (so cool).
I want this option, so thats why I'am gonna take the suit of hidden knifes!!
Reality: solitaire blitz forward and get's killed by 5 ork boyz.
mokoshkana wrote: Suit of the hidden knives is a waste. You can only force your opponent to fight you with models that are within an inch of the Solitaire. Smart opponents won't pile in. It's also reliant on 2CP and/or a boat load of psychic powers when you'd probably be better off casting smites.
It's situational and works better against models with multibel attacks and this boatload of psychic powers are not a waist and can be useful apart from the suit of hidden knifes.
I first try drain with hemlock and then fog of dreams + veil of tears with the shadowseer. I could also use 'lightning refexes' but only as a last resort because that's gonna cost me 2CP. A knight that can only kick (12 attacks) could take about 7 mortal wounds with -3 to hit modifiers. Could be worth it to finish it off, for example, and much more reliable then d3 mortal wound - smites.
Except that knight can decide to use the basic combat weapon that all models are assumed to have per the BRB and do 4 attacks per its profile. If this list is purely designed for a fun experiment in order to test out a combo, then shoot the moon with the best of luck. If you are buying a bunch of models to make this work with the intent that it can help win games in a league/tournament/etc, then I feel you will be sorely disappointed in the end. Ultimately, your plan might work against some less savvy players, but when you play the more experienced folks, you'll find the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
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mokoshkana wrote: Except that knight can decide to use the basic combat weapon that all models are assumed to have per the BRB and do 4 attacks per its profile.
I believe thats when models don't got a melee weapon. Knight with two shooty arms got titanic feet and got to use them, no holding back. Please show me the rules if i'am missing something.
mokoshkana wrote: If this list is purely designed for a fun experiment in order to test out a combo, then shoot the moon with the best of luck. If you are buying a bunch of models to make this work with the intent that it can help win games in a league/tournament/etc, then I feel you will be sorely disappointed in the end. Ultimately, your plan might work against some less savvy players, but when you play the more experienced folks, you'll find the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Are you talking about the whole armylist? If you do, please show me your armylist or better: show me the kind of experienced armylist I could face that would be a problem.
I can almost take out two knights in one turn. It's not just a fun experiment.
mokoshkana wrote: Except that knight can decide to use the basic combat weapon that all models are assumed to have per the BRB and do 4 attacks per its profile.
I believe thats when models don't got a melee weapon. Knight with two shooty arms got titanic feet and got to use them, no holding back. Please show me the rules if i'am missing something.
Looks like you are correct with respect to this. However it still does rely on you getting two powers off (WC 6 and WC 7 with the possibility of 1 re-roll for 1CP), and having two wounded knights next to each other.
mokoshkana wrote: If this list is purely designed for a fun experiment in order to test out a combo, then shoot the moon with the best of luck. If you are buying a bunch of models to make this work with the intent that it can help win games in a league/tournament/etc, then I feel you will be sorely disappointed in the end. Ultimately, your plan might work against some less savvy players, but when you play the more experienced folks, you'll find the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Are you talking about the whole armylist? If you do, please show me your armylist or better: show me the kind of experienced armylist I could face that would be a problem.
I can almost take out two knights in one turn. It's not just a fun experiment.
Well, I don't usually play 2k, but if I'm listing building to beat your Army, it isn't that hard. starts with 3x Hemlock Wraithfighters and 3x hornets all back lined at the start. The Hemlocks can move wherever they'd like and with 3x smites and 6D3 auto hits, they are just deleting the entirety of your rangers. They may not wipe them all out, but the -2 Leadership will force a bunch of rangers to run. The Hornets probably taking out mandrakes or harelquins. After that, I'd add some rangers and farseers, but the rest of my army is not really necessary. I'd most likely win in the deployment phase. You'd be forced to deploy in a manner which prevents me from sliding those Hemlocks next to juicy characters, which means their 18" range isn't going to hurt me. If you deep strike them in, I get at least one from turn (assuming I go second) before they come into play, but I can re-position my chaff to keep them back. Oh yeah, and lets throw in some Dark Reapers for fun too. Then all of your negative hit modifiers are meaningless as well.
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mokoshkana wrote:Looks like you are correct with respect to this. However it still does rely on you getting two powers off (WC 6 and WC 7 with the possibility of 1 re-roll for 1CP), and having two wounded knights next to each other.
Thats why I posted this:
shogun wrote:Reality: solitaire blitz forward and get's killed by 5 ork boyz.
Thats my obvious way of telling it's very situational and could be useless from time to time. But even so... it's not hard to get in close combat with a blitz solitaire and a few misses could get some extra mortal wounds. For 1 CP I would like to add this to my toolbox. Especially when those big shooty knights can get big auto hit flamers and missle's that could hit my farseers.
mokoshkana wrote: Well, I don't usually play 2k, but if I'm listing building to beat your Army, it isn't that hard. starts with 3x Hemlock Wraithfighters and 3x hornets all back lined at the start. The Hemlocks can move wherever they'd like and with 3x smites and 6D3 auto hits, they are just deleting the entirety of your rangers. They may not wipe them all out, but the -2 Leadership will force a bunch of rangers to run. The Hornets probably taking out mandrakes or harelquins. After that, I'd add some rangers and farseers, but the rest of my army is not really necessary. I'd most likely win in the deployment phase. You'd be forced to deploy in a manner which prevents me from sliding those Hemlocks next to juicy characters, which means their 18" range isn't going to hurt me. If you deep strike them in, I get at least one from turn (assuming I go second) before they come into play, but I can re-position my chaff to keep them back. Oh yeah, and lets throw in some Dark Reapers for fun too. Then all of your negative hit modifiers are meaningless as well.
No, don't go " I just bring a bunch of this and kick your ass"... Thats just simple list-tailoring and I even think a fem hemlocks and hornets are not going to cut it. Give me a full 2000p decent tournament list that could do well in a competitive environment. So you also would add rangers, farseers, dark reapers? And what more? Give me that 2000 points list please?
This gives me 10 CP. I make the Autarch Skyrunner the Warlord in order to proc Path of Command for CP farming. I back line everything, to prevent it from getting shot off of the table. The reapers go in the wave serpent.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 20:59:53
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I think if you get a good turn 1 you will set the tone.
If your opponent uses transports and deepstrikes denying you a turn 1 wipe you may struggle
Alternatively... you should keep in mind that being eldar makes you insanely easy to wound and you can suffer in the morale phase with big blobs of rangers/drakes.
Its a glass list - it looks fun - I'd like to know how it fares.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/26 01:14:25
This gives me 10 CP. I make the Autarch Skyrunner the Warlord in order to proc Path of Command for CP farming. I back line everything, to prevent it from getting shot off of the table. The reapers go in the wave serpent.
Decent list. Did a few tests against it. Really comes down to who get's the first turn. Yes, hemlock's + hornets + dark reapers are devastating for my ranger wall but after that my 30 mandrakes drop in and those hemlock's get in trouble. If I get first turn then my mandrakes can drop in turn 2 anywhere with a reroll to charge (power from pain), and thats a big different's compared to dropping in first turn in the deployment zone. It really forces me to castle up and that gives you more board control. Also might depends on where the hemlocks can move second turn because I could ignore them and go for the hornets/wave serpent/spears if possible. For me it's the art of getting closer with my characters without getting targeted. Also a big difference if there is line of sight blocking terrain in my deployment zone because that could prevent the hornets, wave serpent, direct shooting reapers from shooting first turn. I would also deploy 5 rangers or my 5 drukhari warriors in front of the 2x10 rangers to take the 3 hemlock smites before the start flaming my big ranger units. Decreases the amount of rangers running away I hope.
But overall it's not a clear win for your list.
1.Your first turn you kill guardians,
2.My first turn: forced to drop mandrakes in deployment zone and kill hemlocks,
3. Your second turn: Mandrakes get's a beating,
4. My second turn: drop two harlequin units to disrupt enemy line and force more bodies between characters and enemy units, try to do as much damage as possible within reach,
5 Your third turn: try to kill all the units that intervene between your units and the characters. If you succeed you win. If you don't I might win with sheer psychic power damage and close combat.
It's a bloodbath so it would be a fun game whatever the outcome!
BTW: I do think your armylist lacks the tools to deal with knights. Hemlocks are nice but also need to get close for effect and might drop fast after the first turn. You really need doom to work with all those S6 hornets shooting.
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s for two MWs.
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