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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

phydaux wrote:What do you guys think of this:

You no longer roll dice for an Act of Faith. Instead each Act cost one Command Point. Acts are limited to one per squad per turn, but no limit on the number of Acts per turn other than your available Command Points.

Thoughts?


phydaux wrote:What do you guys think of this:

You no longer roll dice for an Act of Faith. Instead each Act cost one Command Point. Acts are limited to one per squad per turn, but no limit on the number of Acts per turn other than your available Command Points.

Thoughts?


Rynner wrote:
phydaux wrote:
What do you guys think of this:

You no longer roll dice for an Act of Faith. Instead each Act cost one Command Point. Acts are limited to one per squad per turn, but no limit on the number of Acts per turn other than your available Command Points.

Thoughts?


I think it would cripple the one ability we have left.

Anyone going to the Slugga?


phydaux wrote:how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote:
phydaux wrote:
how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.


Acts of Faith should be like IG orders.


Amishprn86 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
phydaux wrote:
how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.


Acts of Faith should be like IG orders.


IDK, that would make them very strong. They are a full phase, i pretty sure they will be nerf a bit, a limit like Ynnari.

I'd like to see one of them being a 4++ for a turn on their shield of faith rule, that be a sweet add on, would make a melee unit more fun to play.


Purifying Tempest wrote:Call me a weirdo, but I kinda like Acts as they currently are.

They are strong, very similar to Strength from Death just with more specific timings and harder to access.

And I think that is something else that makes them good, but not too powerful. They are relatively limited access. The more that there are, the less significant any one feels.

I would propose that Acts of Faith are borderline miracles in the narrative aspect of the game... so an army ripping off 4-5 a turn seems... watered down. Keep them significant parts of the turn, but limit access to preserve the significance.

Then when the Codex gets pondered over, they could incorporate a stratagem that allows the army to rip off an extra Act of Faith at the cost of CP.

Plus, if Acts become "common place" actions for Sisters, the cost is going to be baked into every model, or the effectiveness of them are going to be hamstrung because the expectation is they will be taking these actions frequently.


phydaux wrote:The problem is that the current system highly rewards a player with a single Sisters unit in their soup army by allowing that one unit to get off an Act nearly every turn. But it punishes the player who has a full Sisters Battalion with 20+ Sisters units in but can only manage 1 or 2 Acts per turn.

The Trial Rules need to somehow normalize Acts. If al you have is a single unit, then that unit SHOULD get an Act every turn or so. But if you have a full Sisters Battalion.

IMO the only current game mechanic that is at all similar is Psychic Powers.

I say roll 2d6 for an Act, the first Act goes off on a 4+, with +1 for every Act there after. Only Sister Superiors can roll. +2 to the roll for any unit with an Imigifier in it.


Amishprn86 wrote:
phydaux wrote:
The problem is that the current system highly rewards a player with a single Sisters unit in their soup army by allowing that one unit to get off an Act nearly every turn. But it punishes the player who has a full Sisters Battalion with 20+ Sisters units in but can only manage 1 or 2 Acts per turn.

The Trial Rules need to somehow normalize Acts. If al you have is a single unit, then that unit SHOULD get an Act every turn or so. But if you have a full Sisters Battalion.



This ^


Purifying Tempest wrote:That is a problem? Wasn't aware the acts of faith from lone battle sister squads were deforming the environment in any meaningful sort of way. I also don't see 500 points as inconsequential for a suicide squad of squishy Seraphim and Celestine. Celestine is certainly worth that, but the rest is hardly going to flatten much.

Does it give imperium armies the same boost as Sororitas? Sure. But doesn't 200 points give every imperium army +5 CP?

Good things don't having to be spammed to epic extents to make your army work or make a rule fun. In fact, where a 2000 point sisters army gets a boost over a 500 point Celestine hit squad is what happens after those Seraphim die. More meaningful acts deeper into the game.


pretre wrote:This is kind of wish-listing rather than tactics...

That being said, we should just go back to the old 'faith pool'.

My favorite version of the faith rules:
Spoiler:



Now can we maybe start a thread for the proposed rules and take it there?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 22:08:28


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Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






Is there something wrong with somebody's quotations in this thread? Everything looks like all one post to me.


Anyway, I actually quite like the way Acts of Faith are right now, the only thing I'd like to see changed is to remove the random element and just boost the cost of Imagifiers to compensate; having powers tied to characters means you already have to balance how much to spend to offset vulnerability to sniping, having it be random as well is either an annoyance, or deeply frustrating.

   
Made in au
Sister Oh-So Repentia





 pretre wrote:
This is kind of wish-listing rather than tactics...

That being said, we should just go back to the old 'faith pool'.

My favorite version of the faith rules:
Spoiler:



Now can we maybe start a thread for the proposed rules and take it there?


Mildly interesting that with the exception of 'Light of the Emperor' becoming 'Hand of the Emperor', the names of these four original Acts of Faith match the names of the four current ones. Though a quick flick at the 6/7th ed codex I see they've always been in use, amongst others.

I like the idea of a 4++ till the start of your next turn AoF - would massively help Repentia and great for keeping that key unit on an objective, but doesn't make Celestine any better. I would rather keep the list short though - they need to be significant - Stratagems are where the minor buffs belong.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

 Haravikk wrote:
Is there something wrong with somebody's quotations in this thread? Everything looks like all one post to me.


Anyway, I actually quite like the way Acts of Faith are right now, the only thing I'd like to see changed is to remove the random element and just boost the cost of Imagifiers to compensate; having powers tied to characters means you already have to balance how much to spend to offset vulnerability to sniping, having it be random as well is either an annoyance, or deeply frustrating.

I quoted them all from another thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rubenite wrote:

I like the idea of a 4++ till the start of your next turn AoF - would massively help Repentia and great for keeping that key unit on an objective, but doesn't make Celestine any better. I would rather keep the list short though - they need to be significant - Stratagems are where the minor buffs belong.


The 4++ is actually a 4+++ it is after saving throws. It gave everyone a FNP/WBB roll after taking wounds. Read it again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 22:59:22


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




thank you pretre for that compalation
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I am totally on board for a stratagem or AoF that boosts Shield of Faith.

Could even be a Stratagem that replaces the use of an Act that increases Shield of Faith to 3+ Invulnerable and 2d6 Deny the Witch for the round. 1 CP + AoF use seems acceptable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/14 00:51:05


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Remember we can't go too crazy.

The Acts we have now are awesome simply BECAUSE a well-constructed Sisters army can only consistently pull off 2-3 Acts per turn.

If we make a way to up the number of Acts to a consistent 4-5 per turn then we are either going to have to up the cost of Sisters units (a bad thing) or nerf the Acts into the dirt (a WORSE thing).
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




That is a true statement

Stratagems would probably be the best way to incorporate these things. Acts should be strong, and rare. I don't mind other factions leeching them because a smart player just target the unit that is abusing the act and clear them. Not like Sisters are notoriously resilient or anything.

Also, a stratagem to gain an extra Act of Faith for the turn would be amazing and add something to deeper Sororitas armies.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




"a stratagem to gain an extra Act of Faith for the turn would be amazing"

Hmmmm.. That's... really simple and elegant.

Burn CPs for the Acts you really NEED to go off, then roll for a few extra each turn. And when you run out of CPs you still get the Acts you roll for.

I REALLY like this idea. And that guarantees GW WON'T do this.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




GW has really set up a simple system that allows all sorts of stuff like that to be bolted on. The core is mundane and bleh, which is part of why you see so much of a jump from index to codex. The bolt on pieces of "traits" and "stratagems" are where things start to get personalized.

Will they do something so simple like granting acts through Stratagems or making an Order trait (and/or a Relic) that gives Imagifiers +1 to their Faith roll? Probably not. Would it be really nice to have stuff like that? Absolutely
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Edmonds, WA

I recall the salty tears of many a Marine player when they discovered someone was better at shooting Bolters than them.

That, and "Rending" flamers spelled the doom of that version of Acts of Faith by surpassing Marines unquestioned superiority.

Now in 8th it might go through again, but as a Stratagem. Mortal wounds on the roll of a 6+ to wound.

Perhaps not enough bang for the buck/Command Point.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Sacred Flames (2 CP): Select an Adepta Sororitas unit armed with at least one Immolation Flamer, Heavy Flamer, or Flamer weapon (including Combi-Flamers). Until the beginning of your next turn, all wound rolls of 6+ inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage (Immolation Flamers inflict a mortal wound on a 5+ instead).

Gives relevance to Flamer Dominions, Heavy Flamer Retributors, and puts Immolators back in the discussion against Repressors.

Alas... we dream.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As long as Flamers have an 8" range no one will take them.
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

phydaux wrote:
As long as Flamers have an 8" range no one will take them.

Immolation Flamers say hi.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Flamers at 2 points instead of 7 would probably help, too. A equal drop for Heavy Flamers (maybe 11-13ish for them?).

But at least a stratagem like the above could help make them relevant. Drop the points on the weapons and it becomes risk/reward type scenario.

A hit squad of flamer Dominions that cost as much as Stormbolter Doms backed with a Stratagem that can punish their target with mortal wounds? May help to make the weapon relevant.

Of course, there is the Immolator. I currently pack those with Dominions, and most of my play partners have a healthy respect for the tank. That is another story, though
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Edmonds, WA

Let's dig even further back into the distant past.

Back to a time when the size of a squad was between 5 and 7 models only. Back when a Canoness had S4 T5 and 3 Wounds. When a Battle Sister cost 32 points if armed with a Flamer and 31 points if armed with a Melta. There were no Dominions, no Exorcists, and no Celestians as such. Jump Packs for the Canoness and her bodyguard were in there from the very beginning. From 1997 with the John Blanche cover, it's thefirst Codex: Sisters of battle.

Back when Acts of Faith weren't even called Acts of Faith.

Instead we had the Sacred Rites:
Spoilered for Huge
Spoiler:


Of note is that having a character in the unit gave you (arguably) better results on your Sacred Rites roll, and the hardest to get result on the table is pretty much the most commonly used Act of Faith: shooting twice. And even then only be used once in the entire battle.

So, is there anything of value which could be mined from these old rules?

Not counting the 15 Relics (and 7 more for named characters), obviously.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/06/17 14:59:12


 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Yeah, those were pretty bad though.

I was cherry picking my favorite faith rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's important to note that the C:CA rules I posted had the faithful character thing where you created a pool during list creation and used it over the game. It also regenerated with martyrdom.

That was the most flexible of the rules (repeated in C:WH) and expanded with size of the army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/17 15:50:23


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Edmonds, WA

 pretre wrote:


It's important to note that the C:CA rules I posted had the faithful character thing where you created a pool during list creation and used it over the game. It also regenerated with martyrdom.

That was the most flexible of the rules (repeated in C:WH) and expanded with size of the army.


I liked that rule set for Acts of Faith because there was no limit on how many Acts of Faith you could buff a unit with during the turn. I often found one unit ended up taking most of the Acts of Faith as they needed to do the job I wanted them to do.

Maybe having the exception would make Celestians more viable, give them a Holier Than Thou unit rule where they get an Act of Faith they can use only on their own unit and which stacks with an Act of Faith from another source. Being able to take an extra movement phase AND then get into melee combat or shoot twice. If they could double up on the Act of Faith it would make their Bodyguard rule better as they return models (twice) after losing them to leaping in the way and getting a mortal Wound for their trouble.

I'd also like to see an HQ which interacts with Acts of Faith. The Canoness is the battle leader, so let's bring back the Palatine as the Act of Faith character. Something like giving a +1 to the Act of Faith roll if with 6", or giving another army-wide Act of Faith per Palatine chosen.

That might also make for a good Warlord Trait.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/26 14:16:48


 
   
 
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