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I'm just wondering what he would have been like without them and what would've changed.
from what I know he would've been like the original warhounds.

We get small snippets of a possibility of what he could have been, the following is conjecture based on those.

I think he embodied brotherhood, given his actions in various novels and those of his sons prior to the nails and the musings of the librarians during the pit fights, if true he could have been a uniting factor amongst his brothers, which makes his eventual fall even more tragic.

I think Angron was always destined to be a brutal fighter. He singlehandedly killed an Eldar hit squad that came after him when he was a kid. However, if he never had the nails put into him and never had to see his brothers and sisters get killed while being able to do nothing I think he would be a lot less angry and nihilistic. He would most likely be more similar to Russ, but without the hypocrisy and the self-aggrandizement, but with possibly more resistance to authority. A "rebel" as opposed to Russ' "attack dog" as it were.

He wouldn't be Angron. He'd be Contentron.


sorry.

 amazingturtles wrote:
He wouldn't be Angron. He'd be Contentron.


sorry.

That was good.

I think he would have been a Martin Luther King Jr like figure, advocating non-violent resistance to oppressive regimes as a means of liberating planets during the Great Crusade.

And Malcador would have crucified him for it.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I think he would have been a Martin Luther King Jr like figure, advocating non-violent resistance to oppressive regimes as a means of liberating planets during the Great Crusade.

And Malcador would have crucified him for it.

The thing is, Legionnaries characteristics were derived from their Primarch's, due to the geneseed implatation. Given that pre-Angron Warhounds were already hyper-agressive, I don't think Angron would have been gandhi in Space by nature.

He'd be the same, but minus the maniacal insanity and bloodlust.

Engrenages wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I think he would have been a Martin Luther King Jr like figure, advocating non-violent resistance to oppressive regimes as a means of liberating planets during the Great Crusade.

And Malcador would have crucified him for it.

The thing is, Legionnaries characteristics were derived from their Primarch's, due to the geneseed implatation. Given that pre-Angron Warhounds were already hyper-agressive, I don't think Angron would have been gandhi in Space by nature.

He'd be the Civ version of Gandhi.

pm713 wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I think he would have been a Martin Luther King Jr like figure, advocating non-violent resistance to oppressive regimes as a means of liberating planets during the Great Crusade.

And Malcador would have crucified him for it.

The thing is, Legionnaries characteristics were derived from their Primarch's, due to the geneseed implatation. Given that pre-Angron Warhounds were already hyper-agressive, I don't think Angron would have been gandhi in Space by nature.

He'd be the Civ version of Gandhi.

Only if the World Eaters enable Democracy

Engrenages wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I think he would have been a Martin Luther King Jr like figure, advocating non-violent resistance to oppressive regimes as a means of liberating planets during the Great Crusade.

And Malcador would have crucified him for it.

The thing is, Legionnaries characteristics were derived from their Primarch's, due to the geneseed implatation. Given that pre-Angron Warhounds were already hyper-agressive, I don't think Angron would have been gandhi in Space by nature.

Brutal yes.... But maybe more like the war hounds, refined, and we'll planned assault vs pure brute force.

They would be potentially alot more tactical and cordinanated.

Without nails, and if same upbringing with emparor saving his gladiators. Definitely loyal, and his legion likely have a stronger loyalty to its members. Than thr callous using his men and spending with no care.

 jhe90 wrote:

Brutal yes.... But maybe more like the war hounds, refined, and we'll planned assault vs pure brute force.

They would be potentially alot more tactical and cordinanated.

Without nails, and if same upbringing with emparor saving his gladiators. Definitely loyal, and his legion likely have a stronger loyalty to its members. Than thr callous using his men and spending with no care.

Eh, not necessarily. Angron always had problems with authority figures. Even a no-nails, brothers-saved Angron would still probably not like to be told what to do by anyone. Didn't Angron once call the emperor "just another highborne bastard who is used to bossing around other people and getting his way" or something along those lines?

w1zard wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Brutal yes.... But maybe more like the war hounds, refined, and we'll planned assault vs pure brute force.

They would be potentially alot more tactical and cordinanated.

Without nails, and if same upbringing with emparor saving his gladiators. Definitely loyal, and his legion likely have a stronger loyalty to its members. Than thr callous using his men and spending with no care.

Eh, not necessarily. Angron always had problems with authority figures. Even a no-nails, brothers-saved Angron would still probably not like to be told what to do by anyone. Didn't Angron once call the emperor "just another highborne bastard who is used to bossing around other people and getting his way" or something along those lines?

True. He was his own primarch and took his own routes pretty much at cost to anyone even himself. Il revise it, he probbly would have been loyal and maybe more a slightly combative brother to leman Russ. The lap dog, vs rebel, but maybe rep's t the others ability to fight. They where both top tier primarchsnin CC.

Less of the monster that his legion became as a terror weapon. But still maybe more like a heavy assult force like wolves or blood angels?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I think he would have been a Martin Luther King Jr like figure, advocating non-violent resistance to oppressive regimes as a means of liberating planets during the Great Crusade.

And Malcador would have crucified him for it.

The thing is, Legionnaries characteristics were derived from their Primarch's, due to the geneseed implatation. Given that pre-Angron Warhounds were already hyper-agressive, I don't think Angron would have been gandhi in Space by nature.

He'd be the Civ version of Gandhi.

Only if the World Eaters enable Democracy

Nah, given the tech level that must've been reached for 30k, Gandhi would be in "nuke-throwing lunatic" mode...

None of those pesky Butchers Nails. Yay

I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

I like that theory a lot actually and never really thought about why each one landed on the planets they did, but wasn't it kinda randomized?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

I like that theory a lot actually and never really thought about why each one landed on the planets they did, but wasn't it kinda randomized?

Can't be random. We know that Fulgrim was "initially" supposed to land on Chogoris, not the Khan, which means that it was somehow planned. Then, you've got the fact that many ofd them miraculously landed on planets that fitted their "theme" or "archetype" : for example Magnus, the most powerful primarch landed on Prospero, a planet extremely receptive to psyker.

Engrenages wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

I like that theory a lot actually and never really thought about why each one landed on the planets they did, but wasn't it kinda randomized?

Can't be random. We know that Fulgrim was "initially" supposed to land on Chogoris, not the Khan, which means that it was somehow planned. Then, you've got the fact that many ofd them miraculously landed on planets that fitted their "theme" or "archetype" : for example Magnus, the most powerful primarch landed on Prospero, a planet extremely receptive to psyker.

I thought Magnus was just sheer luck and Lorgar just had an obsessive personality in the first place. I guess I haven't brushed up on that piece of lore too much I guess. Mind explaining the Chogoris thing? Spoilers of course for those who need it.

Who really knows. He might have been wise like Sanguinius or Girlyman, he might have been a less Angry version of his self but still a hot head. He is what he is, you can't know what he'd be like.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Who really knows. He might have been wise like Sanguinius or Girlyman, he might have been a less Angry version of his self but still a hot head. He is what he is, you can't know what he'd be like.

we can't but it's fun to speculate, assuming he'd not be THAT differant without the nails though is faulty, those things screw up your brain chemistry. And brain damage CAN affect people's personalities. I've heard stories of people taking brain damage and emerging almost a completely differant person, and make no mistake, Angron had brain damage.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

It's worth noting that the motives of the Chaos Gods may appear random to mortals, and they're not consistent ("Chaos"), but they're thematic. Angron was destined for Khorne's right hand, and in earlier iterations of the 40k universe he was simply one of the most martial of the Primarchs, leading the World Eaters in blood rites that were easily redirected by Horus to Khorne.

He'd probably be pretty honor focused and a more moderate version of Leman Russ - which would make Leman Russ the target for Khorne's desires. We woulda had chaos werewolf marines.

Thanks GW.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Who really knows. He might have been wise like Sanguinius or Girlyman, he might have been a less Angry version of his self but still a hot head. He is what he is, you can't know what he'd be like.

we can't but it's fun to speculate, assuming he'd not be THAT differant without the nails though is faulty, those things screw up your brain chemistry. And brain damage CAN affect people's personalities. I've heard stories of people taking brain damage and emerging almost a completely differant person, and make no mistake, Angron had brain damage.

It's a lot more than that, though. Angron also had all kinds of psychological trauma just from being enslaved as a child, presumably tortured, and forced into becoming a gladiator for others' amusement. Other primarchs went through some nasty gak, but nothing like that. The Nails were the icing on the cake, and part of the tragedy of Angron is that *he knows* he's broken and less than he should be, as evidenced during his fight with Guilliman in Betrayer. ADB did a great job of underlining this in that book by giving us very brief moments and glimpses of what he could have been. Holding up the Warhound leg as the World Eaters chant his name is one of them.

IMO, if Angron lands on, say, Macragge instead of Nuceria, you'd be looking a primarch focused on brotherhood and honor who leads from the front. Even the Angron we know still has a strong sense of honor...it's just been warped by all the trauma.

 gorgon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Who really knows. He might have been wise like Sanguinius or Girlyman, he might have been a less Angry version of his self but still a hot head. He is what he is, you can't know what he'd be like.

we can't but it's fun to speculate, assuming he'd not be THAT differant without the nails though is faulty, those things screw up your brain chemistry. And brain damage CAN affect people's personalities. I've heard stories of people taking brain damage and emerging almost a completely differant person, and make no mistake, Angron had brain damage.

It's a lot more than that, though. Angron also had all kinds of psychological trauma just from being enslaved as a child, presumably tortured, and forced into becoming a gladiator for others' amusement. Other primarchs went through some nasty gak, but nothing like that. The Nails were the icing on the cake, and part of the tragedy of Angron is that *he knows* he's broken and less than he should be, as evidenced during his fight with Guilliman in Betrayer. ADB did a great job of underlining this in that book by giving us very brief moments and glimpses of what he could have been. Holding up the Warhound leg as the World Eaters chant his name is one of them.

IMO, if Angron lands on, say, Macragge instead of Nuceria, you'd be looking a primarch focused on brotherhood and honor who leads from the front. Even the Angron we know still has a strong sense of honor...it's just been warped by all the trauma.

Yeah his whole fall is almost rooted in honour

The Emparor betrayed his brothers, despite being human he saw them as fellow warriors, thus a honour code to stand beside them.

Had he saved them, minus nails, he would of been a hot head, but had a sense of honour, not the butcher he was.

The Emparors first act was one of betrayal. not Honour, so began on bad foundations.

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

I find it doubtful that would change anything. He could give all the warning he liked but the Emperor would just ignore it all.

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

I find it doubtful that would change anything. He could give all the warning he liked but the Emperor would just ignore it all.

You can't think of any points in the Heresy that would have been wildly different if some forewarning arrived? Like, ya know, the Dropsite Massacre? Istvaan V? Calth? Prospero? Signus?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Who really knows. He might have been wise like Sanguinius or Girlyman, he might have been a less Angry version of his self but still a hot head. He is what he is, you can't know what he'd be like.

we can't but it's fun to speculate, assuming he'd not be THAT differant without the nails though is faulty, those things screw up your brain chemistry. And brain damage CAN affect people's personalities. I've heard stories of people taking brain damage and emerging almost a completely differant person, and make no mistake, Angron had brain damage.

I didn't say he wouldn't be different I just said he still might of been an extremely angry and irrational person without the nails, Angron with the butchers nails is just a whole other level of angry and irrational. But even with the nails he still retain a lot of his personality, his pride in fighting from the gladiator days, his kinship with the people he fought with, his anger at the Emperor etc. It wasn't until he fought with Lorgar that he started to really become lost.