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Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






If you have enough negative modifiers to be hitting on something worse than 6+ do you automatically fail or do people play with that old chart where as 7+ = 6+ followed by a 2+?

If an Ork player suffers from -2 or more, what happens? It feels a little unfair for all of them to automatically miss, but I don't recall seeing that fancy chart in the 8th edition rules.

We've been playing with saving throws ranging from 1+ (1s always fail, but you ignore the first AP) to 7+ (after 6, you lose your save). And with wounds, it goes from 2+ at best to 6+ at worst, or a 6+ with a negative modifier being unable to wound. But how do people treat hitting and does everyone treat saves/wounds like this?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 19:48:01


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

In order to roll a 7+ you must (with modifiers) have a result of 7 or more. There is no such rule that a 6+ allows you to roll a second dice in 8th edition.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Ghaz wrote:
In order to roll a 7+ you must (with modifiers) have a result of 7 or more. There is no such rule that a 6+ allows you to roll a second dice in 8th edition.


You second sentence confuses me, I wonder if you unfamiliar with the mechanic I am referring to. You aren't allowed to roll a second dice, but rather are forced to. In order to successfully hit on a 7+ in the past you needed to roll a 6+ and then follow it with a 2+. That 2+ became a 3+ and 4+ and so on as you gained more negative modifiers.

So, in 8th, you're saying that you've been playing it where if you have enough negative modifiers that your to hit roll is over a 6 you just simply cannot hit? This seems really unfair to orks as it's not very hard for me to spread -2 to hit across my army, at least across a couple of important units each turn.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Nova Scotia

That old chart is gone, so the attacks would miss if you can't (after modifiers) end up with a result of 7+.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 anticitizen013 wrote:
That old chart is gone, so the attacks would miss if you can't (after modifiers) end up with a result of 7+.


That's so unfair xD All I have to do is advance with my Wave Serpent and keep it out of 12" range and all the tankbustas in the world are useless.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kharneth wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
That old chart is gone, so the attacks would miss if you can't (after modifiers) end up with a result of 7+.


That's so unfair xD All I have to do is advance with my Wave Serpent and keep it out of 12" range and all the tankbustas in the world are useless.


That's how 8th edition works, though it's not helped by the fact your compairing the cheesiest army for hit moddifiers against the worst shooting index army.

Also that old chart was not 6+ 2+ it was 6+ 4+ minimum and you could still become auto miss with that system.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

The thing to keep in mind is that the Tankbustas will not be "Hitting on a 7+). They will be hitting on a 5+ with a -2 Modifier, which is impossible.

While there is a rule stating that an Unmodified Attack Roll of 1 is a Miss, there is no such rule making a Unmodified Roll of 6 a Hit.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I guess the ork codex will do something about it. Maybe orks will get a rule which lets them always hit on a natural roll of 6, regardless of modifiers. Or they will get a stratagem which lets them ignore any minus to hit modifiers.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Kharneth wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
That old chart is gone, so the attacks would miss if you can't (after modifiers) end up with a result of 7+.


That's so unfair xD All I have to do is advance with my Wave Serpent and keep it out of 12" range and all the tankbustas in the world are useless.


To be fair (), wave serpent's aren't actually a problem for orks. You just ignore them because their shooting is very weak when they have advanced.

Hemlocks, on the other hand...

In general, -1 to hit spells doom for ork shooting anyways. You basically reduce the efficiency of already mediocre shooting units by half. It's more efficient to just assault allaitoc units with lootaz or flash gits than shooting them.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Ice_can wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
That old chart is gone, so the attacks would miss if you can't (after modifiers) end up with a result of 7+.


That's so unfair xD All I have to do is advance with my Wave Serpent and keep it out of 12" range and all the tankbustas in the world are useless.


That's how 8th edition works, though it's not helped by the fact your compairing the cheesiest army for hit moddifiers against the worst shooting index army.

Also that old chart was not 6+ 2+ it was 6+ 4+ minimum and you could still become auto miss with that system.


Ha! I thought so, but my buddy was telling me it was 6+ 2+ so we went with that.

My friend plays shooty orks and I just got into Eldar, so it might be an extreme example but it's a relevant one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
I guess the ork codex will do something about it. Maybe orks will get a rule which lets them always hit on a natural roll of 6, regardless of modifiers. Or they will get a stratagem which lets them ignore any minus to hit modifiers.


I'd actually totally be okay with that if orks had a thing where they always hit on 6s and ignore modifiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
That old chart is gone, so the attacks would miss if you can't (after modifiers) end up with a result of 7+.


That's so unfair xD All I have to do is advance with my Wave Serpent and keep it out of 12" range and all the tankbustas in the world are useless.


To be fair (), wave serpent's aren't actually a problem for orks. You just ignore them because their shooting is very weak when they have advanced.

Hemlocks, on the other hand...

In general, -1 to hit spells doom for ork shooting anyways. You basically reduce the efficiency of already mediocre shooting units by half. It's more efficient to just assault allaitoc units with lootaz or flash gits than shooting them.


I'll let him know. Honestly, I don't know why anyone shoots my wave serpent, it doesn't put out a lot of firepower.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/19 13:00:15


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I actually hope that Orks get an army wide rule that natural 6s count as successful shooting hits regardless of modifiers.
It would fit their fluff of wildly unloading bullets cuz it's fun, would fix the issue of stacking -1 to hit modifiers making it impossible for them to hit and you can even call the rule "Dakka! Dakka!"

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/19 13:30:02


   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I don't even play Orks, and never have, and I would gladly welcome a rule where their BS can't be affected like that.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Valkyrie wrote:
I don't even play Orks, and never have, and I would gladly welcome a rule where their BS can't be affected like that.


I'd be uncool with unmodifiable 5+s, but if they had their 5+ to hit with a rule making it so they never miss on a natural 6 that'd be chill.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Granted we have gotten a bit off topic, but what do people think about the following:
Ork units always hit on natural 6's when shooting, however, if they roll more natural 6's than 1's, they need to reload and cannot shoot in their following shooting phase.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Happyjew wrote:
Granted we have gotten a bit off topic, but what do people think about the following:
Ork units always hit on natural 6's when shooting, however, if they roll more natural 6's than 1's, they need to reload and cannot shoot in their following shooting phase.


Meh, too clunky. Now you'd have to count up your 6s and your 1s every time you shoot. Plus, it's punishing your Orks for something completely probability-based. Like, there's no tactical choice on the Ork player, it's just randomly determined by the dice (I know this sounds like the way the whole game works lol).

I don't think having orks always hit on 6s would be so powerful that it'd need something to tone it down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/19 17:35:16


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Kharneth wrote:
I don't think having orks always hit on 6s would be so powerful that it'd need something to tone it down.

Agreed. And keep in mind that they'd still suffer at least -1 to hit which halves the number of hits they can get already. Ork Shooting isn't that powerful to begin with, but this change gives them a chance and might even shift the meta a bit and counter -1 to hit spam.

-

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Happyjew wrote:
Granted we have gotten a bit off topic, but what do people think about the following:
Ork units always hit on natural 6's when shooting, however, if they roll more natural 6's than 1's, they need to reload and cannot shoot in their following shooting phase.


I agree with Kharneth. If you're going to have a rule like this, though, it should be triggered by more natural 1's than 6's.

If you had to put in a rule like this, then I'd want to see a rule for them that they don't get negative modifiers for their rolls.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/19 18:42:35


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 doctortom wrote:

If you had to put in a rule like this, then I'd want to see a rule for them that they don't get negative modifiers for their rolls.

Something like Orks never suffer more than -1 to their hit rolls in the shooting phase?
That's essentially the same as natural 6s always hit. Not sure what the tangible difference is there.

If you are saying that Orks should never receive negative modifiers at all, I don't think that would go over very well

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/19 19:34:31


   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Galef wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

If you had to put in a rule like this, then I'd want to see a rule for them that they don't get negative modifiers for their rolls.

Something like Orks never suffer more than -1 to their hit rolls in the shooting phase?
That's essentially the same as natural 6s always hit. Not sure what the tangible difference is there.

If you are saying that Orks should never receive negative modifiers at all, I don't think that would go over very well

-


Hey, I believe what he was saying included the person who he was responding to. All of it combined would be this:

Orks ignore all modifiers to hit and always hit on 6s, however if the number of hits is less than the number of 1s rolled then the Ork unit will be unable to shoot in the next shooting phase as it must reload.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

Orks always hit on a natural roll of 6, even if modifiers would normally make them need 7+.
If their required to hit roll is 7+, then any natural 1's rolled count as hits against the Ork unit instead - roll to wound and save as if they had shot at themselves. Resolve these hits after any shots that hit enemy units.

I mean, Orks probably aren't the most discriminating shots really, most of their shots probably go in the general direction of the enemy!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kharneth wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

If you had to put in a rule like this, then I'd want to see a rule for them that they don't get negative modifiers for their rolls.

Something like Orks never suffer more than -1 to their hit rolls in the shooting phase?
That's essentially the same as natural 6s always hit. Not sure what the tangible difference is there.

If you are saying that Orks should never receive negative modifiers at all, I don't think that would go over very well

-


Hey, I believe what he was saying included the person who he was responding to. All of it combined would be this:

Orks ignore all modifiers to hit and always hit on 6s, however if the number of hits is less than the number of 1s rolled then the Ork unit will be unable to shoot in the next shooting phase as it must reload.


That rule I could except, though it maybe should include a limitation/qualifier of ork units which do not move hit on 6's

Dakka Storm 1CP
Select an ork unit at the beginning of the movement phase.
This unit may not move,advance, charge, pile-in or consolidate this turn.
In the shooting phase any to hit rolls of 6 count as a hit regardless of modifiers for this unit. Special effects are effected by moddifiers as normal.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Honestly, my favorite so far is the original one. It's simple, it's not terribly powerful, it fixes the one big issue with modifiers to hit:

"Dakka dakka dakka!:
Ork units with this special rule always hit on a natural roll of a 6 with ranged weapons, regardless of modifiers."

Such a rule allows them to continue hitting on 5+ like they normally do. They will suffer -1 to hit penalties as usual, such as advancing with their assault weapons. They're now immune to 2 or more negative modifiers to their shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/19 20:07:52


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kharneth wrote:
Honestly, my favorite so far is the original one. It's simple, it's not terribly powerful, it fixes the one big issue with modifiers to hit:

"Dakka dakka dakka!:
Ork units with this special rule always hit on a natural roll of a 6 with ranged weapons, regardless of modifiers."

Such a rule allows them to continue hitting on 5+ like they normally do. They will suffer -1 to hit penalties as usual, such as advancing with their assault weapons. They're now immune to 2 or more negative modifiers to their shooting.

The problem with that is it leads to the odity of advancing having no penalty for orks when shooting at anything with a -1 to hit.
Move and shoot a heavy against ravenguard and that move had no penalty.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Ice_can wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
Honestly, my favorite so far is the original one. It's simple, it's not terribly powerful, it fixes the one big issue with modifiers to hit:

"Dakka dakka dakka!:
Ork units with this special rule always hit on a natural roll of a 6 with ranged weapons, regardless of modifiers."

Such a rule allows them to continue hitting on 5+ like they normally do. They will suffer -1 to hit penalties as usual, such as advancing with their assault weapons. They're now immune to 2 or more negative modifiers to their shooting.

The problem with that is it leads to the odity of advancing having no penalty for orks when shooting at anything with a -1 to hit.
Move and shoot a heavy against ravenguard and that move had no penalty.


That's true. You could move and shoot with a heavy weapon or advance and shoot with an assault weapon and if you were fighting someone with a -1 to hit you would ignore the -1.

On the other hand, if you're playing against a foe that has a -1 to hit and that foe adds another -1 you're now unable to do anything. Likewise, if you move with a heavy weapon, you now cannot hit anything. If you advance with an assault weapon, you cannot hit anything.

For an Ork player fighting someone with a -1 army trait, there'd be no reason not to advance with assault weapons or move with heavy weapons, that's true. I just don't really think that'd be too big of a deal. -1 to hit army traits deserve a little kick in the groin as they're very powerful already.

Right now, I can shut down my friend's entire dakka ork army with my Alaitoc just by spreading around some spells and equipment purchases. My rangers have an inherent -2 to hit and are literally untouchable, same with my advancing Wave Serpent. It's awfully cruel. Maybe Ravenguard don't have any ways to add -1 modifiers, but the Orks come with them. Imagine trying to move a heavy weapon unit (Flashgitz) into LoS against Alpha Legion. They can't even try shooting.

Perhaps Orks could halve the modifier values, showing how they're less affected by such things because they barely aim as it is. Halve the modifier, rounding down so a -1 is nothing and a -2 is -1. But then they can move and shoot with heavy or advance and shoot with assault with no penalties unless the enemy brings their own modifiers (maybe this is even fluffier, though).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/19 20:24:07


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I have to agree army wide -1 to hit is very powerful especially since its essentially free and stacking (Alitoc cheese) but some units (Ghostkeels) feel like they are paying a heck of a lot of points for their to hit modifiers and they are being punished for the sins of the Cheese master pointy ears.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/19 20:26:00


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Ice_can wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
Honestly, my favorite so far is the original one. It's simple, it's not terribly powerful, it fixes the one big issue with modifiers to hit:

"Dakka dakka dakka!:
Ork units with this special rule always hit on a natural roll of a 6 with ranged weapons, regardless of modifiers."

Such a rule allows them to continue hitting on 5+ like they normally do. They will suffer -1 to hit penalties as usual, such as advancing with their assault weapons. They're now immune to 2 or more negative modifiers to their shooting.

The problem with that is it leads to the odity of advancing having no penalty for orks when shooting at anything with a -1 to hit.
Move and shoot a heavy against ravenguard and that move had no penalty.

So what? This is a valid concern for natural 6s hitting for everyone (as in a main BRB rule), but for a single army that CANNOT HIT AT ALL without this rule against -2 to hit is perfectly fine.
Moving with a Heavy or Advancing with Assault, then shooting at an amry with -1 to hit will still result in the Orks not hitting on 5+, which is the point, but it doesn't outright stop them from shooting entirely.

-

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




This conversation would be better served in the proposed rules section. This is YMDC and the answer is unless you have at least a +1 to hit you can not hit a 7.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
Honestly, my favorite so far is the original one. It's simple, it's not terribly powerful, it fixes the one big issue with modifiers to hit:

"Dakka dakka dakka!:
Ork units with this special rule always hit on a natural roll of a 6 with ranged weapons, regardless of modifiers."

Such a rule allows them to continue hitting on 5+ like they normally do. They will suffer -1 to hit penalties as usual, such as advancing with their assault weapons. They're now immune to 2 or more negative modifiers to their shooting.

The problem with that is it leads to the odity of advancing having no penalty for orks when shooting at anything with a -1 to hit.
Move and shoot a heavy against ravenguard and that move had no penalty.

So what? This is a valid concern for natural 6s hitting for everyone (as in a main BRB rule), but for a single army that CANNOT HIT AT ALL without this rule against -2 to hit is perfectly fine.
Moving with a Heavy or Advancing with Assault, then shooting at an amry with -1 to hit will still result in the Orks not hitting on 5+, which is the point, but it doesn't outright stop them from shooting entirely.

-

Against army wide buffs it sounds fine but against units paying for thier modifiers or things like glamour that have to be cast it feels very unfair as your punishing people for using the tools GW gave them to protect that key unit.

Realy though the biggest issues with moddifiers stem from alitoc and their broken stacking of modifiers.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Ice_can wrote:

Against army wide buffs it sounds fine but against units paying for thier modifiers or things like glamour that have to be cast it feels very unfair.
If Orks hitting you on 6s only is "unfair" maybe those snowflake units aren't worth taking in the first place.

Ice_can wrote:
Realy though the biggest issues with moddifiers stem from alitoc and their broken stacking of modifiers.
Agreed, which is why the existence of an army that hits them on 6s no matter what is GOOD for the meta.

-

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Gotta leave it to non-ork player to make a rule that doesn't solve the problem and connect it to a downside, making orks worse than they were without the rule in the first place

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
 
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