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Made in us
Been Around the Block




Doylestown, PA

Not sure why Cypher and the Fallen are in the Chaos book, they seem out of place, from things I read they are more traitors then chaos.

I want to build an army based on fluff.

I can make a vanguard detachment, Cypher & 6 units of 10 Fallen, but I read a few posts that they cant use transports because of the <legion> issue. Can they take Rhinos and Land Raiders ? Does it mess anything up ability wise ?

I know Cypher doesnt get a warlord trait.

I want to build something that could be tournament legal then just taking what I want for casual play.

I reread all the FAQ's and didnt find anything, is Fallen considered a Legion ? would they fall under Renegades ?

Maybe its just me, but sometimes reading weapon options confuses me.

Fallen 1 Champion, 4 Fallen, can take an additional 5. (so 5-10)

So a unit of 5 is basic and was under the impressions that all options are based on the base unit, in this case 5 unless stated otherwise like in Chaos Space Marines, if the unit numbers 10 or more models, etc.

Any model may replace its boltgun with a chainsword - understand

Up to Four Fallen may choose one of the following options
replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol - understand
replace Bolt gun with one item from Combi-weapons or Special Weapons, so can take 4 Combi-meltas or 4 Melta guns as example.
replace bolt pistol & bolt gun with 2 lightning claws - understand
Take one item from melee weapons list - so each fallen has Bolt gun & Bolt Pistol and I can add a Melee weapon giving them 3 total ? it doesnt say to replace anything.

"One additional"(? so up to 5 ?) Fallen may replace Bolt gun with one item from Special or Heavy weapons list. (basing on a base unit is 5 how does this work) does this mean if I take 10 in a unit I can have 5 Melta guns (as example?) instead of the 4 above or does this change. or can this be combined with the first option of replacing Bolt pistol with plasma pistol then bolt gun for Heavy weapons ?











AoS - Chaos 48030+, 40K - Chaos 33215+
Trading Thread - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/774634.page#10426221 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Page 116:

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from. The rules and abilities for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions are detailed in their own codexes, and both of the datasheets that describe the forces of the Fallen can be found later in this book.


So no transportation by RAW, unless you agree something off piste with your opponent for fluff/fun.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/20 18:10:50


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

My rules knowledge is out of date, but I think Cypher is Imperial as well? In either case, you could probably take Cypher with either Sternguard or Cypher with Chosen and call them counts-as Fallen. Alpha legion tactics seem like they would be acceptable fluff wise, as Cypher infiltrates organizations to mess things up, like leading the population (cultists) in armed revolt.

Just a thought.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 MightyQue wrote:
Not sure why Cypher and the Fallen are in the Chaos book, they seem out of place, from things I read they are more traitors then chaos.


Many Fallen are explicitly fully Chaos. A warband of Fallen assault The Rock, the fortress stronghold of the Dark Angels, and were led by a freaking Daemon Prince! So that is no in dispute in the current fluff.

There are two things we don't know:

1. Whether Fallen are a coherent faction in the current timeline, or if they are subdivided into deeply different groups. Are they all Chaos? Or are some Chaos, some anti-Imperium but not Chaos, and some pro-Imperium but simply hunted by the Dark Angels unfairly.

They have the Imperium keyword too, so if they are all Chaos then it's still not simple. Personally I think there are at least two main factions of Fallen: Chaos worshippers, and those who resisted Chaos.

2. What Cypher's deal is. He clearly has big plans involving a sword and getting to the Emperor. But we have no real idea of what his intentions are. Does he want to save the Imperium (or at least mankind), bring them down, or something else? Is he an agent of Chaos, the Cabal, or charged with something by the Emperor himself before his death (actually possible!).

Personally I don't believe him to be an agent of Chaos, as he's met Guilliman and they even worked together for a bit. Which if there was any hint of corruption, which Psykers should detect, I can't believe would have been possible. But that does make his Chaos keyword confusing!

Until they advance this part of the plot, if they do, that's basically where we are!
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 MightyQue wrote:
Can they take Rhinos and Land Raiders ? Does it mess anything up ability wise ?
You can take them, you just can't give them FALLEN for <LEGION> so you can't ride in them.

My official suggestion is to give up trying to use the actual Fallen rules, just run counts as Dark Angels and use Cypher in an Auxillary Detachment if you really want.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/20 18:12:33


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Doylestown, PA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 MightyQue wrote:
Can they take Rhinos and Land Raiders ? Does it mess anything up ability wise ?
You can take them, you just can't give them FALLEN for <LEGION> so you can't ride in them.

My official suggestion is to give up trying to use the actual Fallen rules, just run counts as Dark Angels and use Cypher in an Auxillary Detachment if you really want.


I am working on doing the 9 legions of chaos, actually anything and everything chaos, unless Dark Angels get Chaos keyword, no Dark Angels.

AoS - Chaos 48030+, 40K - Chaos 33215+
Trading Thread - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/774634.page#10426221 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

So play Chosen (?) as Fallen, pick an appropriate Legion trait and ta-daa, you have fluffy Fallen with Cypher using Chaos units. That way they can get into their Rhinos and such.

Havocs might also be a good alternative if they can still pack 4 specials instead of heavies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 04:13:32


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 MightyQue wrote:
"One additional"(? so up to 5 ?) Fallen may replace Bolt gun with one item from Special or Heavy weapons list. (basing on a base unit is 5 how does this work) does this mean if I take 10 in a unit I can have 5 Melta guns (as example?) instead of the 4 above or does this change. or can this be combined with the first option of replacing Bolt pistol with plasma pistol then bolt gun for Heavy weapons ?
The “additional” isn’t referring to “additional” marines beyond the original 5 models (champion and 4 basic), it’s referring to the “up to 4 fallen may” list of options. “One other” would have been a better description. It means you cannot combine a heavy weapon with a plasma pistol and melee weapon, but can have a minimum-sized unit with a heavy weapon.
At least that’s how I would read it, people will tell me if they think I’m wrong.
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

 MightyQue wrote:
Maybe its just me, but sometimes reading weapon options confuses me.

Fallen 1 Champion, 4 Fallen, can take an additional 5. (so 5-10)

So a unit of 5 is basic and was under the impressions that all options are based on the base unit, in this case 5 unless stated otherwise like in Chaos Space Marines, if the unit numbers 10 or more models, etc.

Any model may replace its boltgun with a chainsword - understand

Up to Four Fallen may choose one of the following options
replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol - understand
replace Bolt gun with one item from Combi-weapons or Special Weapons, so can take 4 Combi-meltas or 4 Melta guns as example.
replace bolt pistol & bolt gun with 2 lightning claws - understand
Take one item from melee weapons list - so each fallen has Bolt gun & Bolt Pistol and I can add a Melee weapon giving them 3 total ? it doesnt say to replace anything.

"One additional"(? so up to 5 ?) Fallen may replace Bolt gun with one item from Special or Heavy weapons list. (basing on a base unit is 5 how does this work) does this mean if I take 10 in a unit I can have 5 Melta guns (as example?) instead of the 4 above or does this change. or can this be combined with the first option of replacing Bolt pistol with plasma pistol then bolt gun for Heavy weapons ?


You can have 5 melta guns, yes, but only if your unit numbers at least 6 models (1 Fallen Champion, and 5 Fallen).

Options are not based upon minimum-sized units. Essentially, this is giving permission to take up to 4 special weapons, and 1 additional weapon which may be either a fifth special weapon or a singular heavy weapon.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
 
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