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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





If 6s wound regardless of T being 2x the weapons S, then why doesnt more Astra Militarum spam mortar teams? Its 48" d6 hits s4.

In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes! 
   
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Norn Queen






 CadianGateTroll wrote:
If 6s wound regardless of T being 2x the weapons S, then why doesnt more Astra Militarum spam mortar teams? Its 48" d6 hits s4.
I am not sure if you've just translated from an alternate dimension where GW has actual human rules writers instead of syphilitic badgers (a-ha! Is funny because GW write rules badly!), but Guard DO spam mortars. Like, all the time. The only reason it's less common now is that they worked best in groups of 6, not the 3 limited in tournament play. Even now it's hard to find a guard list that doesn't slot in 3 Cadian Heavy Weapons teams and mortars in every Infantry squad.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 01:14:59


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 CadianGateTroll wrote:
If 6s wound regardless of T being 2x the weapons S, then why doesnt more Astra Militarum spam mortar teams? Its 48" d6 hits s4.

As I recall they did. Then their points went up from 27 to 33 per model. Then the rules of three kicked in.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





What is the rule of 3s kicking in at tourney?

In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes! 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What is the rule of 3s kicking in at tourney?
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_The_Big_FAQ_1_2018_en.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 01:32:11


 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




It takes a LOT of mortars to kill a target. Calculating averages here, it takes 18 mortars to kill a Black Heart Venom. 36 to kill one single Custodes jetbike in a squad of three. 12 to wipe out a humble squad of 4 shield drones, and that’s a T4 target!

Mortars are great, don’t get me wrong. But they aren’t nearly as killy as people make them out to be. And in an environment where most tournaments are limiting players to three squads of HWTs, you will struggle to take 18 mortars anyway.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





No they don't struggle as mortars are by far best option for HWT. Others require LOS which means they die when somebody says "boo".

They are dirt cheap and kill chaff so they have place. They aren't be-all-wipe-all though so you need something more. And rule of 3 keeps them at 9 team max but that's what you often would see. But it just keeps them at 3x3. Doesn't really limit below that as you don't WANT more expensive guns on T3 W2 5+ models with no bullet screens. Those go to infantry squads.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





What do you mean 3x3? Dont you mean 3 squads of 6 teams? Each hwt can have up to 6 teams so 3 squads will be 18 hwt total.

I thought the errata for organized matched play meant 1-1k pts limits non troops and their dedicated transport to 2 selection of the same data sheet. 1001-2000 allows 3 selection of the same data sheet. Not limiting the number of additional models to a unit.

In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes! 
   
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What do you mean 3x3? Dont you mean 3 squads of 6 teams? Each hwt can have up to 6 teams so 3 squads will be 18 hwt total.

I thought the errata for organized matched play meant 1-1k pts limits non troops and their dedicated transport to 2 selection of the same data sheet. 1001-2000 allows 3 selection of the same data sheet. Not limiting the number of additional models to a unit.


Check your codex. Heavy Weapon Teams are 3 per squad.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What do you mean 3x3? Dont you mean 3 squads of 6 teams? Each hwt can have up to 6 teams so 3 squads will be 18 hwt total.

I thought the errata for organized matched play meant 1-1k pts limits non troops and their dedicated transport to 2 selection of the same data sheet. 1001-2000 allows 3 selection of the same data sheet. Not limiting the number of additional models to a unit.


HWT is 3 teams period. Not less, not more. So 3 datasheets each 3 teams. Maybe you are confusing with that technically there's 6 guys but it takes 2 guys to man a mortar so to speak.

You put in 3 60mm bases with mortar for one HWT datasheet. 3 datasheet=9 bases=9 mortars to shoot with.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Hwt should be 6 but they are 3 only.

I've run them at a number of tourneys and they are very effective vs infantry but they are terrible at hunting vehicles come up against mono knights and your 3x3 mortar teams end up doing 0.84 W/turn (assuming 3+ no FNP)
   
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McCragge

They can’t really hurt Primaris Marines in cover but I can see them being efficient versus T3 with tee shirt saves.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

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DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Assuming no rerolls They still score a couple of wounds vs marines the 3 squads will kill 2.63 marines not in cover.

Great for finishing the last couple of models in a squad. Across the game that 2.5 squads which more than pays back the 99pts invested.


Yes they are worse against cover but with a 48" range why target the unit in cover

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 09:55:42


 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

The most disgusting list I ever faced spammed Basalisks, Mortars and Guard squads with a Mortar team tacced on. They just sit behind LoS blocking terrain, use their Cadia orders + light it up and you can't do anything about it unless you also have an army of LoS ignoring artillery.

They're still very spammable and work great in objective missions to take out the Obsec units hiding on top of Objectives.

Ghorros wrote:
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 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





U02dah4 wrote:
Hwt should be 6 but they are 3 only.

I've run them at a number of tourneys and they are very effective vs infantry but they are terrible at hunting vehicles come up against mono knights and your 3x3 mortar teams end up doing 0.84 W/turn (assuming 3+ no FNP)



Umm weapons shouidn#t really be good against everything so? No problem that they aren't good against knights. That's why you have other units. But hwt's aren't where you put anti knight weapons if you hate to lose

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 mrhappyface wrote:
The most disgusting list I ever faced spammed Basalisks, Mortars and Guard squads with a Mortar team tacced on. They just sit behind LoS blocking terrain, use their Cadia orders + light it up and you can't do anything about it unless you also have an army of LoS ignoring artillery.

They're still very spammable and work great in objective missions to take out the Obsec units hiding on top of Objectives.


I really don't get what makes an army like this so terrifying. Assuming you're going with a brigade, quick math shows you have 8 basilisks, 3 HWTs, 6 infantry squads, 4 CCs, 3 scout sentinels and lets say 3 command squads with another mortar in 'em for good measure.

Each basilisk deals 2.29 damage against a standard T7 3+ vehicle out of cover, or 1.8 in cover (keeping in mind that every vehicle you can toe-touch to a ruin here is going to be in cover because they're 100% obscured from the sight of the firer). This list therefore has the potential to deal between 14 and 18 wounds against vehicles per turn, and then you have 18 mortars total, 12 of which get to reroll all hits and 6 of which reroll 1s.

Assuming your 1750 point list is nothing but basic, gakky tactical marine squads in rhinos, dreadnoughts, terminators and maybe a couple predators and you allow the guard player to deploy his army behind an impenetrable LOS blocking wall so he can do nothing but shoot you all day every day, and all you can do is sit in cover and take it on the chin, by turn 7 you'll lose 26 marines and 10 rhino-equivalent vehicles.

7 turns of uninterrupted shooting from this scary gunline doesn't table a purposefully garbage list.How is this threatening in a world of venomspam lists and tau fire warrior/riptide lists?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 Fafnir wrote:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What do you mean 3x3? Dont you mean 3 squads of 6 teams? Each hwt can have up to 6 teams so 3 squads will be 18 hwt total.

I thought the errata for organized matched play meant 1-1k pts limits non troops and their dedicated transport to 2 selection of the same data sheet. 1001-2000 allows 3 selection of the same data sheet. Not limiting the number of additional models to a unit.


Check your codex. Heavy Weapon Teams are 3 per squad.




They done gone changed it from previous codex! I used to be able to take 6!


In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes! 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Don't know when you have fielded 6. Not in 7th or 6th at least. Think you are getting confused in them having 6 guys manning 3 weapons.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






yeah they were definitely still always three in the last codex.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in at
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





The last time they mightve been more to a squad was... maybe 4th/early 5th? And even then Im not totally sure, though I think you could get HW platoons, so that might be the cause of your confusion as well...

In any case, 3 man min, 3 man max. No more, no less. So the only way to get more than 9 teams is to run some in infantry, verteran or command squads.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Washington State

HW teams have been 3 Heavy Weapons with 6 men since at the 3rd edition codex.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 CadianGateTroll wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What do you mean 3x3? Dont you mean 3 squads of 6 teams? Each hwt can have up to 6 teams so 3 squads will be 18 hwt total.

I thought the errata for organized matched play meant 1-1k pts limits non troops and their dedicated transport to 2 selection of the same data sheet. 1001-2000 allows 3 selection of the same data sheet. Not limiting the number of additional models to a unit.


Check your codex. Heavy Weapon Teams are 3 per squad.




They done gone changed it from previous codex! I used to be able to take 6!

No, Renegades and Heretics from forge world use to be able to take 6. Imperial Guard has always been at 3 per HWT
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
The most disgusting list I ever faced spammed Basalisks, Mortars and Guard squads with a Mortar team tacced on. They just sit behind LoS blocking terrain, use their Cadia orders + light it up and you can't do anything about it unless you also have an army of LoS ignoring artillery.

They're still very spammable and work great in objective missions to take out the Obsec units hiding on top of Objectives.


I really don't get what makes an army like this so terrifying. Assuming you're going with a brigade, quick math shows you have 8 basilisks, 3 HWTs, 6 infantry squads, 4 CCs, 3 scout sentinels and lets say 3 command squads with another mortar in 'em for good measure.

Each basilisk deals 2.29 damage against a standard T7 3+ vehicle out of cover, or 1.8 in cover (keeping in mind that every vehicle you can toe-touch to a ruin here is going to be in cover because they're 100% obscured from the sight of the firer). This list therefore has the potential to deal between 14 and 18 wounds against vehicles per turn, and then you have 18 mortars total, 12 of which get to reroll all hits and 6 of which reroll 1s.

Assuming your 1750 point list is nothing but basic, gakky tactical marine squads in rhinos, dreadnoughts, terminators and maybe a couple predators and you allow the guard player to deploy his army behind an impenetrable LOS blocking wall so he can do nothing but shoot you all day every day, and all you can do is sit in cover and take it on the chin, by turn 7 you'll lose 26 marines and 10 rhino-equivalent vehicles.

7 turns of uninterrupted shooting from this scary gunline doesn't table a purposefully garbage list.How is this threatening in a world of venomspam lists and tau fire warrior/riptide lists?

It was a doubles tournie and the exact list we faced was:
4x Basilisks
2x LRBT
Pask
6< Mortars
Lots of infantry
Smash Captain
Scouts
Devastators (Lascannon, HB)
Celestine

Our list was:
Custards Bike Captain
Custards Vexilla
Custard Bikes
Custards Guard
Guard CP battery
Shadowsword
2x Support vehicles
Tank Commander
Psyker

We lost the bikes and the Shadowsword turn 1 and then it was just a matter of slowly wearing us down, we couldn't do anything to them since we lost our anti-tank stuff and we couldn't get through his infantry to hold the tanks in combat.

That team tabled 4/5 teams they played against at the event.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 21:53:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not only does the rule of 3 address spam like this but the issue with anything like this is high armor saves/ toughness or the -1 modifier that plenty of armies have. Its why you don't see many pure guards winning GT after GT. They typically have to be souped with a component they are missing such as the speed and durability and attack profile of jet bikes.

Now mortars are amazing at clearing out low toughness cheep troops.... Which I think is thematically exactly what they should excel at
   
Made in ae
Longtime Dakkanaut



Orlando

As a guard player, they indeed have been 6 dudes in 3 threes since 3rd edition. They used to have a thing in 2nd where you could pull your heavy weapons teams out of your line squads and use them as a single squad from what I remember but that was it. Anyone using 6 heavy weapons in one team was either cheating or simply didnt understand the rules.

Infantrymen do not die, they go to heaven and regroup. 
   
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Beijing,China

Mortars are very cost effective, but full 3 units are only 99pts, about...5% of a 2000pts army. You still need the other 95% doing well to win.

Tokugawa plays:  
   
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Toledo, OH

Even before the rule of three, the availability of LOS blocking terrain limited how many mortars actually made sense. They units are so amazingly fragile that they really can't survive in the open.

OTOH, with ITC terrain rules, weapons that ignore LOS is very strong for a gunline.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





OTOH being very cheap it wasn't too bad even if they got shot. Before rule of 3 18+ mortars wasn't that uncommon.

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Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 CrownAxe wrote:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
What do you mean 3x3? Dont you mean 3 squads of 6 teams? Each hwt can have up to 6 teams so 3 squads will be 18 hwt total.

I thought the errata for organized matched play meant 1-1k pts limits non troops and their dedicated transport to 2 selection of the same data sheet. 1001-2000 allows 3 selection of the same data sheet. Not limiting the number of additional models to a unit.


Check your codex. Heavy Weapon Teams are 3 per squad.




They done gone changed it from previous codex! I used to be able to take 6!

No, Renegades and Heretics from forge world use to be able to take 6. Imperial Guard has always been at 3 per HWT


R&H Still can take 6 HWT's per Heavy weapon squads, granted that R&H mortars suffer from worse bs, still one of our best units.
Also Good if taken in Militia Sqads 2in 20 militia or 1 in 10 guradsmen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/29 11:12:27


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Each basilisk deals 2.29 damage against a standard T7 3+ vehicle out of cover, or 1.8 in cover (keeping in mind that every vehicle you can toe-touch to a ruin here is going to be in cover because they're 100% obscured from the sight of the firer)

no the veichles must be completely inside the terrain and also obscured at least 50%, is not enough touch the terrain to have cover anymore

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/30 17:17:10


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