Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
A unit with mixed saves takes multiple melta wounds. Do you roll to determine the damage before allocating the wound and take saves against the damage or is the wound allocated first, save rolls taken, then determine the damage to see how many wounds the attack takes off?
I.e. a unit of 5 termies, one with SS. 3 melta hits successfully wound. Opponent wanted me to roll for damage first so that he can allocate the heaviest hits (i.e. more than 1) to the SS model to take the 3++ against it.
EDIT:
Nevermind. Found the answer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 15:10:53
No, once a wounding hit is rolled, your opponent then decides which model will take the saving throw. you only roll for damage if that save roll fails and remove that model if the damage meets or is in excess of it's remaining wounds.
This is clearly stated in the base rules that a save throw must be taken before damage rolls are allocated.
Tristanleo wrote: No, once a wounding hit is rolled, your opponent then decides which model will take the saving throw. you only roll for damage if that save roll fails and remove that model if the damage meets or is in excess of it's remaining wounds.
This is clearly stated in the base rules that a save throw must be taken before damage rolls are allocated.
So here's a follow up question to that scenario. Because its a mixed save unit, he should roll his saves one at a time. Is damage rolled after each failed save or is damage rolled after all saves are rolled?
So lets say the termie player rolled 3 saves, one at a time and they were as follows:
4
2
1
Would you have him stop rolling after he rolled a 2 and then roll damage for the melta to see if it killed him? Then the 3rd roll would be on a 5++ termie if the damage was enough to kill the SS termie?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 18:01:08
I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Icculus wrote: So here's a follow up question to that scenario. Because its a mixed save unit, he should roll his saves one at a time. Is damage rolled after each failed save or is damage rolled after all saves are rolled?
So lets say the termie player rolled 3 saves, one at a time and they were as follows:
4
2
1
Would you have him stop rolling after he rolled a 2 and then roll damage for the melta to see if it killed him? Then the 3rd roll would be on a 5++ termie if the damage was enough to kill the SS termie?
You wouldn't roll for damage on that first roll of 4 against his 3++ as the result of the damage roll wouldn't matter regardless.
Upon his second roll of 2, you roll for damage and see if the termie dies.
If the termie from step two above didn't die (i.e. the roll for damage was 1, so the termie now has 1 wound left) you would roll against the 3++ again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote: I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Because wound is allocated on a model by model basis, if you have a mixed saves in a unit, you'd allocate the wounds to the model with better saves to try to mitigate the damage better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 18:29:28
BaconCatBug wrote: I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Because wound is allocated on a model by model basis, if you have a mixed saves in a unit, you'd allocate the wounds to the model with better saves to try to mitigate the damage better.
Yes, but being mixed save doesn't change how the wounds are allocated? You can allocate them just as you would any other unit.
BaconCatBug wrote: I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Because wound is allocated on a model by model basis, if you have a mixed saves in a unit, you'd allocate the wounds to the model with better saves to try to mitigate the damage better.
Yes, but being mixed save doesn't change how the wounds are allocated? You can allocate them just as you would any other unit.
Fast Dice. Mixed saves means the Terminator player can't just throw down 3 dice. If they landed as 5,1,4 He would just say one got through and probably lose the SS terminator to d6 damage. But if he rolled them one at a time, which he would have to because of mixed save units, he could have rolled the 1 first. Then the 4 would have hurt or kill a different terminator.
BaconCatBug wrote: I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Because wound is allocated on a model by model basis, if you have a mixed saves in a unit, you'd allocate the wounds to the model with better saves to try to mitigate the damage better.
Yes, but being mixed save doesn't change how the wounds are allocated? You can allocate them just as you would any other unit.
Fast Dice. Mixed saves means the Terminator player can't just throw down 3 dice. If they landed as 5,1,4 He would just say one got through and probably lose the SS terminator to d6 damage. But if he rolled them one at a time, which he would have to because of mixed save units, he could have rolled the 1 first. Then the 4 would have hurt or kill a different terminator.
You can't fast roll saves. Ever. Never have been able to in 8th.
BaconCatBug wrote: You can't fast roll saves. Ever. Never have been able to in 8th.
Even though most people do if the saves are all the same.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
BaconCatBug wrote: I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Because wound is allocated on a model by model basis, if you have a mixed saves in a unit, you'd allocate the wounds to the model with better saves to try to mitigate the damage better.
Yes, but being mixed save doesn't change how the wounds are allocated? You can allocate them just as you would any other unit.
Fast Dice. Mixed saves means the Terminator player can't just throw down 3 dice. If they landed as 5,1,4 He would just say one got through and probably lose the SS terminator to d6 damage. But if he rolled them one at a time, which he would have to because of mixed save units, he could have rolled the 1 first. Then the 4 would have hurt or kill a different terminator.
You can't fast roll saves. Ever. Never have been able to in 8th.
so when a horde of ork shootas scores 20 wounds on your tac squad in cover. you sit there and roll 20 dice one at a time? When was the last time you played an actual game of 40k?
Icculus wrote: [so when a horde of ork shootas scores 20 wounds on your tac squad in cover. you sit there and roll 20 dice one at a time? When was the last time you played an actual game of 40k?
Admittedly it's been two weeks since my last 40k game due to having to study for an exam, but when I play I follow the actual rules.
At the very most, I allow my opponent to pre-allocate the order of casualties, assuming identical saves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 21:15:56
Icculus wrote: [so when a horde of ork shootas scores 20 wounds on your tac squad in cover. you sit there and roll 20 dice one at a time? When was the last time you played an actual game of 40k?
Admittedly it's been two weeks since my last 40k game due to having to study for an exam, but when I play I follow the actual rules.
At the very most, I allow my opponent to pre-allocate the order of casualties, assuming identical saves.
Agreed, insofar as if the target unit have mixed saves then you MUST roll them one by one, no question.
BaconCatBug wrote: I don't understand what being a mixed save unit has to do with anything here, you allocate the wound first, then roll to save, if you fail the save you apply the damage to that model. It's the same sequence regardless of whether it's a mixed save unit or not.
Because wound is allocated on a model by model basis, if you have a mixed saves in a unit, you'd allocate the wounds to the model with better saves to try to mitigate the damage better.
Yes, but being mixed save doesn't change how the wounds are allocated? You can allocate them just as you would any other unit.
Fast Dice. Mixed saves means the Terminator player can't just throw down 3 dice. If they landed as 5,1,4 He would just say one got through and probably lose the SS terminator to d6 damage. But if he rolled them one at a time, which he would have to because of mixed save units, he could have rolled the 1 first. Then the 4 would have hurt or kill a different terminator.
You can't fast roll saves. Ever. Never have been able to in 8th.
so when a horde of ork shootas scores 20 wounds on your tac squad in cover. you sit there and roll 20 dice one at a time? When was the last time you played an actual game of 40k?
From 'Fast Dice Rolling', page 179 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.
If you want to make a house rule, that's fine but the rule is actually quite clear on the matter.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Practically, between friends, it’s entirely fine to fast roll saves for a Tac Squad and remove models in the order you prefer. Functionally identical to slow rolling, tbh.
In a competitive game or a situation where it ‘might matter’ then absolutely follow the rules exactly. But if it’s practical to speed things up in a way that doesn’t impact on the game, please, let’s not pretend that’s some kind of cheating, eh?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
I think when it comes down to multiple wound models, random damage weapons, and mixed save units, it is essential to roll saves one at a time. But when it comes down to mass single damage weapons on a large squad of single wound models all with the same save, you will see the fast rolling of saves in basically every setting.
But I can see they made the rule to handle the complex situations, which is a benefit.
BaconCatBug wrote: You can't fast roll saves. Ever. Never have been able to in 8th.
Even though most people do if the saves are all the same.
Well, they are doing it wrong then. You can't get annoyed at something if you deliberately do it wrong.
In some friendly games and tournaments, when fast rolling the save is the same as rolling them one at a time, the majority fast roll to save time.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
BaconCatBug wrote: You can't fast roll saves. Ever. Never have been able to in 8th.
Even though most people do if the saves are all the same.
Well, they are doing it wrong then. You can't get annoyed at something if you deliberately do it wrong.
In some friendly games and tournaments, when fast rolling the save is the same as rolling them one at a time, the majority fast roll to save time.
The advantage of that sort of setting is that long-term players are more likely to be able to interpret when fast rolling makes no difference and when it does. Heck I've played games where diffrent weapons and saves were fast rolled together using different dice. But that's us agreeing to a convention to speed up the roll-reroll fest.
Assuming same SV # for your unit vs identical weapon mods and dam what difference does it make in fast roll vs one at a time.
For example my unit takes 20 lasgun wounds. My unit has a SV of 5+ for all of them and they are all 1 wound models. Does it make a difference whether I roll the saves 1 at a time or all at once? I don't think there's a difference but I could be wrong.
Yes, you can do that. And reduce damage you suffer that way. Thats why you dont fast roll damage in a competitive game. You roll one at a time and the opponent then allocates that to his models.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Assuming same SV # for your unit vs identical weapon mods and dam what difference does it make in fast roll vs one at a time.
For example my unit takes 20 lasgun wounds. My unit has a SV of 5+ for all of them and they are all 1 wound models. Does it make a difference whether I roll the saves 1 at a time or all at once? I don't think there's a difference but I could be wrong.
Technically it could, as if you're slow rolling you don't know how many saves you're going to fail after that, so it could influence your choice of what models you select. You might not end up with the same models removed as you would if you fast roll and know in advance before removing models exactly how many you're removing.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Assuming same SV # for your unit vs identical weapon mods and dam what difference does it make in fast roll vs one at a time.
For example my unit takes 20 lasgun wounds. My unit has a SV of 5+ for all of them and they are all 1 wound models. Does it make a difference whether I roll the saves 1 at a time or all at once? I don't think there's a difference but I could be wrong.
Technically it could, as if you're slow rolling you don't know how many saves you're going to fail after that, so it could influence your choice of what models you select. You might not end up with the same models removed as you would if you fast roll and know in advance before removing models exactly how many you're removing.
5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
