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Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






At my local flgs we usually play 2k points. They other night I debuted my knights (crusader + 2 Armiger) alongside my usual Astra militarum, and I had a taker and we had a good game. It was well played, and even though I won it was a close match and we had fun.
However, people seemed a little put off that I brought a Knight to flgs night. So I have two questions since I know knights are good but not impossible to deal with.

Are Knights not FLGS friendly?
What is the primary concern people have when facing a knight?

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Smotejob wrote:
At my local flgs we usually play 2k points. They other night I debuted my knights (crusader + 2 Armiger) alongside my usual Astra militarum, and I had a taker and we had a good game. It was well played, and even though I won it was a close match and we had fun.
However, people seemed a little put off that I brought a Knight to flgs night. So I have two questions since I know knights are good but not impossible to deal with.

Are Knights not FLGS friendly?
What is the primary concern people have when facing a knight?
It depends on the FLGS and "Not enough anti-tank", which isn't really an issue now that you can chip away with any weapons.
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






Knights are (and have been, for a while now) a codex army. At 2k points, no one should be complaining, especially if you're bringing only one full sized knight and a couple baby knights. That is IMO a fair use of super heavies.

If it was 1000 points, I can see how people might be upset as it's harder to deal with super heavies at low point values, but nobody should ever be complaining about armingers, as they're basically dreadnoughts.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Nah, it shouldn't be a problem. If someone brings nothing but Tactical Squads to a game against you then it'll teach them to buy some anti-tank weapons.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




I'm open to playing against anything. Although I'll admit that it's going to be a better game if you play tournament prep list vs tournament prep list and casual vs casual. A Knights list isn't necessarily a tournament list, but some of those Knights + Guard lists are really strong lists I would not want to run 20 Ultramarines Intecessors into.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/23 21:24:39


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It’s funny, a Knight list is generally accepted but Unit’s 3 Guard Superheavies list got all kinds of ZOMG CHEESE OP accusations on these here boards.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I do struggle vs single or two knights, but this is army specific and optimised list shouldn't have problems with knights, as long as it is not from a bad codex, or you don't run some crazy ally combo of knight, custodes and IG.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Multi-knights IS a bit cheesy for most flgs. Something like 2 Helverins, a Crusader, a Gallant, a Warden and Gulliman.

I can't imagine many casual lists standing a chance against that kind of thing.

But one knight? Nahhhhhh
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




 grouchoben wrote:
Multi-knights IS a bit cheesy for most flgs. Something like 2 Helverins, a Crusader, a Gallant, a Warden and Gulliman.

I can't imagine many casual lists standing a chance against that kind of thing.

But one knight? Nahhhhhh


Why do people throw Guilliman into lists with no Ultramarines for his aura. Just what.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




meleti wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Multi-knights IS a bit cheesy for most flgs. Something like 2 Helverins, a Crusader, a Gallant, a Warden and Gulliman.

I can't imagine many casual lists standing a chance against that kind of thing.

But one knight? Nahhhhhh


Why do people throw Guilliman into lists with no Ultramarines for his aura. Just what.


He grants 3CP as warlord and regain on 5+ it a tough warlord to kill surrounded by knights and some of his buffs affect imperium keyword. Also he's not hamstrung by having overcosted units to buff. Though thats turn from a knights list towards a cheesey tournament list.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ice_can wrote:
meleti wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Multi-knights IS a bit cheesy for most flgs. Something like 2 Helverins, a Crusader, a Gallant, a Warden and Gulliman.

I can't imagine many casual lists standing a chance against that kind of thing.

But one knight? Nahhhhhh


Why do people throw Guilliman into lists with no Ultramarines for his aura. Just what.


He grants 3CP as warlord and regain on 5+ it a tough warlord to kill surrounded by knights and some of his buffs affect imperium keyword. Also he's not hamstrung by having overcosted units to buff. Though thats turn from a knights list towards a cheesey tournament list.


He's also gotten really, really expensive for an army that isn't using his most powerful ability. The Imperium aura is not worth his point cost at all. Just take Celestine if you want a really punchy character, but frankly I don't think you even need that because you can just run a Guard battalion and get even more Command points while actually having objective holders. Knights are already very punchy on their own.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't disagree with Bobby G being overcosted, but he does bring extra movement which is important if your bringing a gallant. Also a gallant with 15 s8 attacks hitting on 2+ plus Guilliman in CC gives opponents a headache to deal with.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ice_can wrote:
I don't disagree with Bobby G being overcosted, but he does bring extra movement which is important if your bringing a gallant. Also a gallant with 15 s8 attacks hitting on 2+ plus Guilliman in CC gives opponents a headache to deal with.


The Gallant's typically going to run out in front of Guilliman though. 12" move, advancing and charging, possibly with Landstrider or maybe House Terryn if you're going all-in on Gallants. Maybe you get that aura, but I suspect you'll outrun Guillman as often as not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/23 23:27:37


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





A lot of it is a holdover from 7th, when the old Armor Value system meant that Knights were effectively immortal vs. small arms. When all of your small arms bounced off of a Knight, that meant the only thing that could do work was heavy weapons, which were not always optimal to bring.

These days you can threaten knights with any weapons, although it's not always an ideal situation. But the days of a Knight being an unstoppable cheese monster are long gone, and most armies have tools to deal with them. They also get weaker and are less effective the more you damage them.

I recommend playing objective based games though, as they can be a major weakness for Knights and give you a handicap against players not specialized to fight you.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They're fine.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Well, it rather depends on the FLGs and the game size.

For starters, some are highly casual, while others are a bit more cutthroat.

And in either case, what is acceptable in 2000 points differ from at 500.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






I think, like FW stuff, it has a bit of a stigma to it still from the past that will take some time to fade.

   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

No problem at all with Knight armies in a drop in gaming scenario.

If you brought a Knight/Guard/Slamguinous one it could be a problem but that goes for any hyper optimized tournament level army stomping on casual fun games.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





People need to toughen up, I'll play anything someone brings with the only caveat being I know what kind of list theyre bringing before hand (fun or competitive) and go from there

19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I look at it similarly to bringing a full tournament list to a FLGS for a pick up game. It's legal, no one should be mad about it, but it's not a bad idea to let the other player know you are wanting a competitive game and make sure they are on the same page. Especially if they are people you don't know.

This goes a lot more for a whole army of knights than just 1, but the reason I think it's similar is that knights armies seem pretty good almost regardless of how they are set up, to the point that I think a lot of the terrible armies real people tend to take to FLGS pick up games probably auto lose to them. So I'd want to make sure they were up for the challenge.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





jcd386 wrote:
I look at it similarly to bringing a full tournament list to a FLGS for a pick up game. It's legal, no one should be mad about it, but it's not a bad idea to let the other player know you are wanting a competitive game and make sure they are on the same page. Especially if they are people you don't know.

This goes a lot more for a whole army of knights than just 1, but the reason I think it's similar is that knights armies seem pretty good almost regardless of how they are set up, to the point that I think a lot of the terrible armies real people tend to take to FLGS pick up games probably auto lose to them. So I'd want to make sure they were up for the challenge.


Funny you equate knight lists with tournament lists as tournaments are where they won't likely be that good.


So knights are too tournament for flg and too flg for tournaments?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut






This is the same kind of prejudgment stuff that forgeworld units goes true, but guess what, nothing is unfair to bring, even in a drop-in game.

In a game where anything can hurt anything and anti armor is more or less the core of any army, knights preforms worse and worse the more dmg they take.
Even in a 1000p mono codex force, taking one knight is just fine,
but if you want to bring 2 knights at 1000p, common sence is to alert your opponent before the game day.

and why should the IK player limit itself when soup runs rampage?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 08:37:53


darkswordminiatures.com
gamersgrass.com
Collects: Wild West Exodus, SW Armada/Legion. Adeptus Titanicus, Dust1947. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

The shooty damage output of a Knight is mediocre.
This is were a Baneblade can excel with 30 shots S5, AP-1 and the battle cannon.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well some armies don't have much anti tank. In my army it is the sword of titan and a thunder hammer, plus 2 psycannons. Neither of those work much.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Karol wrote:
Well some armies don't have much anti tank.


That's your problem. 40k has tanks, if you aren't bringing anti-tank units then you have no right to complain when you struggle with tanks.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, I think a well-rounded 40k army should have 40% anti-tank, 40% anti-infantry, and 20% special forces like infiltrators.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

So to the people saying all-knights is fine at a local casual game night. Or that Knight shooting is meh...

Have you actually played against a Knight/Helverin list? They absolutely curb stomp a lot of competitive lists, let alone causal ones. A 50-man tourny in London last week had 4 out of the top 5 players running knight lists.

But it goes beyond asymmetry of power - because there is little in 40k as demoralising as fighting one with a normal 40k list. Knights have a good chance of going first, nuking AT elements and 1st-turn charging. What remains spanks off the 150 wounds of T7/8 Invuln. Those of you who say 'gitgud' are forgetting that you're probably competitive players yourselves, and aren't accounting for the fact that a local club night has noobs, kids, fluffbunnies, etc. None of these stand a hope in hell against all-knights. Autowin.

So yeah, if you like playing a game where you've made it impossible for you to lose, and also like other people in your local area being put off the game, and specifically, put off playing you, then sure. Pull out a crusader, a gallant, 2 wardens and 3 helverins vs that guy's Whitescar biker list. Should be ... fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 09:49:51


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 grouchoben wrote:
Those of you who say 'gitgud' are forgetting that you're probably competitive players yourselves, and aren't accounting for the fact that a local club night has noobs, kids, fluffbunnies, etc. None of these stand a hope in hell against all-knights.


Then perhaps those players should get better at the game and bring stronger lists. Why is the burden of changing list strength always on the "competitive" player? Why isn't the fluffbunny expected to bring a competitive list to make the game more fun?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Those of you who say 'gitgud' are forgetting that you're probably competitive players yourselves, and aren't accounting for the fact that a local club night has noobs, kids, fluffbunnies, etc. None of these stand a hope in hell against all-knights.


Then perhaps those players should get better at the game and bring stronger lists. Why is the burden of changing list strength always on the "competitive" player? Why isn't the fluffbunny expected to bring a competitive list to make the game more fun?


Not everybody has a huge collection of models to finetune his/her list against every possible opponent especially not against armour. If this opponent happens to bring along three imperial knights you can skip the game right away.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

See issues like this are often resolved with a simple discussion on what army each player is bringing. You don't have to go into specifics but I think its more than fair in a casual pick-up game to know what army your opponent will bring and thus have some degree of ability to pick options that will have a benefit against that army; or leave out those that will have a disadvantage.

If someone insists or only has one army combination they can use then there is an onus on the opponent to adapt to that situation IF its proven that in the past the opponent has curb-stomped the other army with ease. That's just part of being a good sportman and respecting that not everyone can adapt their army (maybe they can't carry more models; maybe they are on a limited budget etc...)


And in the end sometimes you have to learn that Joe is really good at the game and going to win every time so its a case of either avoiding playing Joe or seeing if Joe can impart his knowledge and wisdom. Indeed I'd say any gamer who wants to see their local scene grow and improve should be willing to put time into helping others.

You can build fluffy lists that are still competitive; and indeed the concept that fluffy is always weak just depends on the natur of how one interprets "fluffy". Often as not its just that people who build weak fluffy lists are just putting down models they like and lack the ability to see how to read the stats on how models perform. Ergo because they can't easily "see" the mechanics of how the game works they can't make good choices (this often affects how they make target choices in game and means that they often have to trial by error - ergo they fire their unit at nearly everything and find out what takes the most damage and then focus on that in the future - which isn't always the best choice as it means they can get thrown on how to deal with a new unit type against them; plus th random nature of dice means that they might use a unit in the right way but do little damage because of poor dice; and vis versa a good dice roll might make them think a unit is much stronger against another than it really is.

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