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Hello everyone,

I would like to make use of your collective knowledge for help with a thought experiment - creating the best close combat character in 8th, as you no doubt ascertained from the post's subject.
Just to reiterate, the build can include buffs from other sources (e.g. Stratagems and Psychic Powers), and practicality on the tabletop is secondary.

I was thinking An'ggrath with the Khorne stratagems from the Daemon Codex, as well as Warp Surge, a nearby Bloodmaster with the Crimson Crown relic, Locus of Rage, and the Warlord Trait "Oblivious to Pain"?

Thank you for any suggestions.

Are you having into account points? Because if not it will be some kind of ultra expensive FW hero.

But by points, probably blood angel captain Smashfester, or Shield Captains in jetbikes.

Points aren't really being taken into account, no; if the character in question is cheaper than the alternatives, that is obviously better, but that is a secondary concern.
I will look into FW stuff, thanks.

If practicality doesn't matter, a Warlord Titan would probably punch out most things with; 5 S32 AP-5 D12 attacks popping most things with just two hits; 2+/3++ T16 and 70W laughing in the face of most attacks; and the fact it can still shoot it's apocalypse level weapons whilst in CQC.

If practicality does matter however, you're looking at:
Smash Captain
Custodes bike Captain
Celestine
Buffed up Knight Gallant with a Paragon fist
Any of the Primarchs

Those are the only Characters I'd think twice before I charged (Smash Captain less so due to most of it's good stuff happening on the charge and not being as tough as the others).

A fully buffed An'ggrath is putting out 26 S17 AP -4 D6 attacks on the charge, rerolling to hit.
According to https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ , that takes out a Warlord in two rounds, including the reduced stats post-charge.

If the Warlord is using 4 Volcano Cannons (for example), it also requires two rounds. Hence, whoever fights first wins (and if An'ggrath is charging, I believe it will be him?).
Not bad for ~1/6 of the points cost.

More of a practical threat than a super buffed up one, but a Solitaire Blitzing and fighting twice against infantry is really scary.

meleti wrote:
More of a practical threat than a super buffed up one, but a Solitaire Blitzing and fighting twice against infantry is really scary.

Definitely, it outputs an insane number of attacks for what it costs.

Spectre228 wrote:
A fully buffed An'ggrath is putting out 26 S17 AP -4 D6 attacks on the charge, rerolling to hit.
According to https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ , that takes out a Warlord in two rounds, including the reduced stats post-charge.

If the Warlord is using 4 Volcano Cannons (for example), it also requires two rounds. Hence, whoever fights first wins (and if An'ggrath is charging, I believe it will be him?).
Not bad for ~1/6 of the points cost.

The Warlord only requires a single round to blow poor An'ggrath to kingdom come, even if he does have a 3++.

If the Warlord gets the first turn, he blows An'ggrath away.
If An'ggrath gets the first turn, he takes the Warlord down to it's second wound bracket, then the Warlord steps out of combat and blows An'ggrath away.

Double Mori Quake cannons with 4d6 S20 AP-5 D12 (because of Macro) are enough to down anything you throw at a Warlord.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
A fully buffed An'ggrath is putting out 26 S17 AP -4 D6 attacks on the charge, rerolling to hit.
According to https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ , that takes out a Warlord in two rounds, including the reduced stats post-charge.

If the Warlord is using 4 Volcano Cannons (for example), it also requires two rounds. Hence, whoever fights first wins (and if An'ggrath is charging, I believe it will be him?).
Not bad for ~1/6 of the points cost.

The Warlord only requires a single round to blow poor An'ggrath to kingdom come, even if he does have a 3++.

If the Warlord gets the first turn, he blows An'ggrath away.
If An'ggrath gets the first turn, he takes the Warlord down to it's second wound bracket, then the Warlord steps out of combat and blows An'ggrath away.

Double Mori Quake cannons with 4d6 S20 AP-5 D12 (because of Macro) are enough to down anything you throw at a Warlord.

Very true - poor An'ggrath indeed. What about a KX139 Tau'Nar with Gun Drones to block the wounds?

Edit: I remembered why I initially discounted the Mori Quake Cannon - it has a minimum range of 24", and I am talking about CC.

I'd say most powerful for the points is Daemon Prince w/ wings and 2 claws. Most powerful disregarding points, Ann'grath the Unbound.

BA smash CPT for 116pts its the most cost effective option and high enough damage to deal with anything you will encounter tournament wise

Spectre228 wrote:
Very true - poor An'ggrath indeed. What about a KX139 Tau'Nar with Gun Drones to block the wounds?

Edit: I remembered why I initially discounted the Mori Quake Cannon - it has a minimum range of 24", and I am talking about CC.

Even with Volcano Cannons An'ggrath dies quite quickly.

I'd assume the Tau'nar would want to keep it's distance due to it's less than satisfactory melee abilities, so the Tau'nar would need 6 shield drones to survive just the Warlord's arm mounted guns.

There's a reason the Warlord Titan is the most expensive model Citadel sell both in money and points.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
Very true - poor An'ggrath indeed. What about a KX139 Tau'Nar with Gun Drones to block the wounds?

Edit: I remembered why I initially discounted the Mori Quake Cannon - it has a minimum range of 24", and I am talking about CC.

Even with Volcano Cannons An'ggrath dies quite quickly.

I'd assume the Tau'nar would want to keep it's distance due to it's less than satisfactory melee abilities, so the Tau'nar would need 6 shield drones to survive just the Warlord's arm mounted guns.

There's a reason the Warlord Titan is the most expensive model Citadel sell both in money and points.

The Warlord is definitely insanely powerful, but I am just unsure whether he is the absolute best at CQC. Once you take into account his lowered wound bracket following An'ggrath's attacks, he can't take out An'ggrath in one phase (using Volcano Cannons, Dual Turbo-Laser Destructors, and Ardex Defensor Maulers).

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
Very true - poor An'ggrath indeed. What about a KX139 Tau'Nar with Gun Drones to block the wounds?

Edit: I remembered why I initially discounted the Mori Quake Cannon - it has a minimum range of 24", and I am talking about CC.

Even with Volcano Cannons An'ggrath dies quite quickly.

I'd assume the Tau'nar would want to keep it's distance due to it's less than satisfactory melee abilities, so the Tau'nar would need 6 shield drones to survive just the Warlord's arm mounted guns.

There's a reason the Warlord Titan is the most expensive model Citadel sell both in money and points.

The Warlord is definitely insanely powerful, but I am just unsure whether he is the absolute best at CQC. Once you take into account his lowered wound bracket following An'ggrath's attacks, he can't take out An'ggrath in one phase (using Volcano Cannons, Dual Turbo-Laser Destructors, and Ardex Defensor Maulers).

That does take his lowered wound bracket into account, only one Volcano Cannon or two Mori Cannon shots to get through to instant kill him.

meleti wrote:
More of a practical threat than a super buffed up one, but a Solitaire Blitzing and fighting twice against infantry is really scary.

Take it further, Frozen Stars, Suit of Knives....Lightning Fast Reflexes, Veil of Tears, Fog of Dreams. Not only is he throwing out a ton of attacks, but enemy unit swinging at him inflicts a mortal wound on itself on any roll of 1-4.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
Very true - poor An'ggrath indeed. What about a KX139 Tau'Nar with Gun Drones to block the wounds?

Edit: I remembered why I initially discounted the Mori Quake Cannon - it has a minimum range of 24", and I am talking about CC.

Even with Volcano Cannons An'ggrath dies quite quickly.

I'd assume the Tau'nar would want to keep it's distance due to it's less than satisfactory melee abilities, so the Tau'nar would need 6 shield drones to survive just the Warlord's arm mounted guns.

There's a reason the Warlord Titan is the most expensive model Citadel sell both in money and points.

The Warlord is definitely insanely powerful, but I am just unsure whether he is the absolute best at CQC. Once you take into account his lowered wound bracket following An'ggrath's attacks, he can't take out An'ggrath in one phase (using Volcano Cannons, Dual Turbo-Laser Destructors, and Ardex Defensor Maulers).

That does take his lowered wound bracket into account, only one Volcano Cannon or two Mori Cannon shots to get through to instant kill him.

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

Spectre228 wrote:

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

You misunderstand, my original calculations took into account the degrading BS, no matter who goes first An'ggrath dies.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

You misunderstand, my original calculations took into account the degrading BS, no matter who goes first An'ggrath dies.

Ah, I apologise.

What about Scabeiathrax? With Miasma of Pestilence, Plaguefly Hive, and his natural -1, that is a total -3 to hit. When you add a 3++ and 5+++ into that, he isn't going down in the first phase of shooting.
As a Nurgle model, he can be healed by Fleshy Abundance and Revolting Regeneration before each phase.
Although he deals far less damage than An'ggrath (only 13 damage per round on average), he can outlast the Titan, I think.

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

You misunderstand, my original calculations took into account the degrading BS, no matter who goes first An'ggrath dies.

Ah, I apologise.

What about Scabeiathrax? With Miasma of Pestilence, Plaguefly Hive, and his natural -1, that is a total -3 to hit. When you add a 3++ and 5+++ into that, he isn't going down in the first phase of shooting.
As a Nurgle model, he can be healed by Fleshy Abundance and Revolting Regeneration before each phase.
Although he deals far less damage than An'ggrath (only 13 damage per round on average), he can outlast the Titan, I think.

Even with all that, the Warlord still kills Skabby by a single wound in one round of shooting.

Bjorn the fell handed and Murderfang are both pretty handy.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

You misunderstand, my original calculations took into account the degrading BS, no matter who goes first An'ggrath dies.

Ah, I apologise.

What about Scabeiathrax? With Miasma of Pestilence, Plaguefly Hive, and his natural -1, that is a total -3 to hit. When you add a 3++ and 5+++ into that, he isn't going down in the first phase of shooting.
As a Nurgle model, he can be healed by Fleshy Abundance and Revolting Regeneration before each phase.
Although he deals far less damage than An'ggrath (only 13 damage per round on average), he can outlast the Titan, I think.

Even with all that, the Warlord still kills Skabby by a single wound in one round of shooting.

2 Volcano Cannons: dealing an average of 5.2 damage per round.
2 Dual Turbo-Laser Destructors: dealing an average of 2.8 damage per round.
2 Ardex-Defensor Maulers: dealing an average of 0.3 damage per round.
5 Titanic Strides: dealing an average of 1.5 damage per round.

Total: 9.3 damage per round.

Were you using different guns?
I also assumed Scabeiathrax had Locus of Fecundity as well.

Source: https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Garrlor wrote:
Bjorn the fell handed and Murderfang are both pretty handy.

Bjorn is certainly very dangerous - that powerclaw is nasty.

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

You misunderstand, my original calculations took into account the degrading BS, no matter who goes first An'ggrath dies.

Ah, I apologise.

What about Scabeiathrax? With Miasma of Pestilence, Plaguefly Hive, and his natural -1, that is a total -3 to hit. When you add a 3++ and 5+++ into that, he isn't going down in the first phase of shooting.
As a Nurgle model, he can be healed by Fleshy Abundance and Revolting Regeneration before each phase.
Although he deals far less damage than An'ggrath (only 13 damage per round on average), he can outlast the Titan, I think.

Even with all that, the Warlord still kills Skabby by a single wound in one round of shooting.

2 Volcano Cannons: dealing an average of 5.2 damage per round.
2 Dual Turbo-Laser Destructors: dealing an average of 2.8 damage per round.
2 Ardex-Defensor Maulers: dealing an average of 0.3 damage per round.
5 Titanic Strides: dealing an average of 1.5 damage per round.

Total: 9.3 damage per round.

Were you using different guns?
I also assumed Scabeiathrax had Locus of Fecundity as well.

Source: https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

1. Yes, I'm still using the Mori cannons because they are better than the Volcano Cannons.
2. You need to double your damage for all of the Titan's Macro weapons because Skabby is Titanic.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

Yes it could, but those shots are unlikely to get through 2+/3++/6+++ if they are at BS 4+.

You misunderstand, my original calculations took into account the degrading BS, no matter who goes first An'ggrath dies.

Ah, I apologise.

What about Scabeiathrax? With Miasma of Pestilence, Plaguefly Hive, and his natural -1, that is a total -3 to hit. When you add a 3++ and 5+++ into that, he isn't going down in the first phase of shooting.
As a Nurgle model, he can be healed by Fleshy Abundance and Revolting Regeneration before each phase.
Although he deals far less damage than An'ggrath (only 13 damage per round on average), he can outlast the Titan, I think.

Even with all that, the Warlord still kills Skabby by a single wound in one round of shooting.

2 Volcano Cannons: dealing an average of 5.2 damage per round.
2 Dual Turbo-Laser Destructors: dealing an average of 2.8 damage per round.
2 Ardex-Defensor Maulers: dealing an average of 0.3 damage per round.
5 Titanic Strides: dealing an average of 1.5 damage per round.

Total: 9.3 damage per round.

Were you using different guns?
I also assumed Scabeiathrax had Locus of Fecundity as well.

Source: https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

1. Yes, I'm still using the Mori cannons because they are better than the Volcano Cannons.
2. You need to double your damage for all of the Titan's Macro weapons because Skabby is Titanic.

I included Macro already, and we are talking about CQC here, which 24" is not.

Spectre228 wrote:
I included Macro already,

Well you've done something wrong because even your link agrees the Volcano Cannons alone do 10.4 damage.

and we are talking about CQC here, which 24" is not.

Doesn't matter if Skabby doesn't get there. Also, it depends on what you define as a hull on a walker when measuring weapon range; if you take the hull to only be it's torso then the minimum range on the Mori cannons is more like 14", allowing the titan to easily step out of combat and fire.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
I included Macro already,

Well you've done something wrong because even your link agrees the Volcano Cannons alone do 10.4 damage.

and we are talking about CQC here, which 24" is not.

Doesn't matter if Skabby doesn't get there. Also, it depends on what you define as a hull on a walker when measuring weapon range; if you take the hull to only be it's torso then the minimum range on the Mori cannons is more like 14", allowing the titan to easily step out of combat and fire.

2d6 shots S30 AP -5 D 24 BS 3+
vs.
T9 3++ 5+++ rerolling 1's

Comes out as 5.2 dmg.

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
I included Macro already,

Well you've done something wrong because even your link agrees the Volcano Cannons alone do 10.4 damage.

and we are talking about CQC here, which 24" is not.

Doesn't matter if Skabby doesn't get there. Also, it depends on what you define as a hull on a walker when measuring weapon range; if you take the hull to only be it's torso then the minimum range on the Mori cannons is more like 14", allowing the titan to easily step out of combat and fire.

2d6 shots S30 AP -5 D 24 BS 3+
vs.
T9 3++ 5+++ rerolling 1's

Comes out as 5.2 dmg.

BS2+, not 3+.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
I included Macro already,

Well you've done something wrong because even your link agrees the Volcano Cannons alone do 10.4 damage.

and we are talking about CQC here, which 24" is not.

Doesn't matter if Skabby doesn't get there. Also, it depends on what you define as a hull on a walker when measuring weapon range; if you take the hull to only be it's torso then the minimum range on the Mori cannons is more like 14", allowing the titan to easily step out of combat and fire.

2d6 shots S30 AP -5 D 24 BS 3+
vs.
T9 3++ 5+++ rerolling 1's

Comes out as 5.2 dmg.

BS2+, not 3+.

I was assuming Scabeiathrax went first.

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spectre228 wrote:
I included Macro already,

Well you've done something wrong because even your link agrees the Volcano Cannons alone do 10.4 damage.

and we are talking about CQC here, which 24" is not.

Doesn't matter if Skabby doesn't get there. Also, it depends on what you define as a hull on a walker when measuring weapon range; if you take the hull to only be it's torso then the minimum range on the Mori cannons is more like 14", allowing the titan to easily step out of combat and fire.

2d6 shots S30 AP -5 D 24 BS 3+
vs.
T9 3++ 5+++ rerolling 1's

Comes out as 5.2 dmg.

BS2+, not 3+.

I was assuming Scabeiathrax went first.

And if he does he doesn't knock the Warlord down to its second wound bracket, so it doesn't matter who goes first.

I'm throwing in for my boy Draigo. GK might not be great but that guy is still a monster.

Invul strat gets him to 2++, hitting on 2s with str 8 -4 ap 3 damage a hit. Top that off with his -1 to invuls against daemons and he shreds them. Cast hammer hand on him and he is wounding basically anything on a 2+.

Obviously Sly Marbo.