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i'm sitting here ready to assemble a bunch of stuff and i just remembered i haven't used niddies since 6th edition. i need to know the following:
1. whats a good loadout for carnifexen?
2. zoanthropes, venomthropes or neurothropes?
3. Toxicrene or Maleceptor?
4. are broodlords too overcosted now? what about genestealers? preferred loadout for them?
5. warriors or shrikes? preferred loadouts?
6. are malanthropes still worth running?
7. Tyrannofex or Tervigon?

Warriors are great. Basic guys with Deathspitters are a fine unit. Take enough of them and buying a Prime to boost their stats is well worth it, imo.

Neurothropes are very cost effective in my experience.

Malanthropes might still be reasonable, but their price increase has turned some people away.

Tervigons are not popular as far as I can tell. Tyrannofexes are somewhat mixed. Most seem to not like them, but some folks get use out of them.

Unfortunately I can't bring myself to like either toxicrenes or maleceptors. Though of the two, I think the maleceptor would be the better build.

Broodlords are a bit expensive, but I can still justify sticking one in a list. It's a capable close combat fighter that's able to hide with the character keyword, and provide a small buff to nearby genestealers, and cast a psychic power.
Don't think I'd include more than one in an army though. Each costs as much as 13.5 genestealers, and I think in most cases I'd rather have an extra 13.5 genestealers.

Genestealers are fantastic. Keep them basic, and in big units. They get an extra attack so long as at least 10 are still alive in a unit, which is a pretty big buff.
They can take a free Acid Maw upgrade for 1 in every 4 models. So 5 acid maws in a full sized unit of 20. This is basically a power sword, and a little more effective than the basic rending claws against most targets.
Scything talons are also a free weapon option. They aren't as good as your basic rending claws against most targets, but are slightly better against units which only have an invulnerable save. They're free, and don't replace anything, so may as well take them for the occasional situation they're useful.

If you take zoanthropes, you’re taking a Neurothrope. And you always take zoanthropes in units of 4.

Maleceptors are pretty great imo, and can decimate gunlines with a bunch of buff characters all huddled together. You kinda need to run it Kraken though to make it up the board before getting shot up, though with a 4++ it’s pretty tough as is. Double movement and double advance stratagems with a mortal wound aoe right in their face turn 1 will always surprise them.

Shrikes are kind of overcosted, but they’re superior to warriors in every way, and the FAQ gave them the Warrior keyword so they count for Primes.

Malanthropes are still worth it. Just the simple 20% increase in survivability alone is great, but there is so much stuff that does horrible things on 6’s that get stopped in their tracks by the -1.

 Badablack wrote:
If you take zoanthropes, you’re taking a Neurothrope. And you always take zoanthropes in units of 4.

Maleceptors are pretty great imo, and can decimate gunlines with a bunch of buff characters all huddled together. You kinda need to run it Kraken though to make it up the board before getting shot up, though with a 4++ it’s pretty tough as is. Double movement and double advance stratagems with a mortal wound aoe right in their face turn 1 will always surprise them.

Shrikes are kind of overcosted, but they’re superior to warriors in every way, and the FAQ gave them the Warrior keyword so they count for Primes.

Malanthropes are still worth it. Just the simple 20% increase in survivability alone is great, but there is so much stuff that does horrible things on 6’s that get stopped in their tracks by the -1.

Malanthrope buff (like the venom buff) is actually a much bigger increase than 20% in survivability.

Against BS 2+ is 25%
Against BS 3+ is 33%
Against BS 4+ is 50%
Against BS 5+ is 100%

That's why my lists always start with a unit of Venomthropes, which i honestly prefer over a Malanthrope.

Spoletta wrote:
Malanthrope buff (like the venom buff) is actually a much bigger increase than 20% in survivability.

Against BS 2+ is 25%
Against BS 3+ is 33%
Against BS 4+ is 50%
Against BS 5+ is 100%

That's why my lists always start with a unit of Venomthropes, which i honestly prefer over a Malanthrope.

That's some iffy Maths there:

For BS2+ you've gone from 5 hits to 4 hits, which is a 1/5 increase in survivability or 20%
BS3+ is 25%
BS4+ is 33%
BS5+ is 50%
BS6+ is 100%

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Malanthrope buff (like the venom buff) is actually a much bigger increase than 20% in survivability.

Against BS 2+ is 25%
Against BS 3+ is 33%
Against BS 4+ is 50%
Against BS 5+ is 100%

That's why my lists always start with a unit of Venomthropes, which i honestly prefer over a Malanthrope.

That's some iffy Maths there:

For BS2+ you've gone from 5 hits to 4 hits, which is a 1/5 increase in survivability or 20%
BS3+ is 25%
BS4+ is 33%
BS5+ is 50%
BS6+ is 100%

Depending on what you mean by this percents. Going from 1 in 6 hits to 0 in 6 is an infinite defense improvement - not a 100%. At he same time it's a 100% offense reduction. Going from bs 5 to bs 6 is a 100% increase in damage and 50% decrease in defense. So, you are getting the same result with different numbers. That's how political statistics works btw.

blueshift wrote:
1. whats a good loadout for carnifexen?

There isn't really a specific load-out that is dominating over all others currently, though if you are looking for a mostly-melee centric 'fex you are probably better served with one of the specialized strains instead of the build-your-own version. Screamer Killers or Thornbacks are both fairly well equipped to deal with infantry while Stonecrushers handle vehicles and monsters with the double claw configuration or do a bit of everything with a single claw + bioflail.

As far as gun selection goes, there isn't really a bad option to choose from. Devourers are short-range anti-infantry, Deathspitters are medium range autocannon-equivalents (single damage but more shots), Stranglethorns are anti-horde (+1 to hit rolls), and Heavy Venom Cannons are for taking heavier targets (fixed 3 damage and S9). If you want to take a Stranglethorn you might want to look at the Thornback, since it gains the ability to ignore cover and reroll failed wound rolls against infantry. Also if you do take a Carnifex with nothing but guns in its arm sockets, you might want to consider an Acid Maw head to give it a token melee weapon. Otherwise, probably look towards Enhanced Senses to make it more accurate (particularly if it has a HVC).

Lastly, the Chitin upgrades are mostly dominated by the Spore Cysts upgrade, as the -1 to hit goes a long way towards keeping your Carnifexes alive.

blueshift wrote:

2. zoanthropes, venomthropes or neurothropes?

Zoanthropes are basically Smite snipers. They can sit back at 24'' away (ideally beyond the denial range of most psykers) and cast Smite once for 2D3 (or 3+D3) mortal wounds. The issue they generally have though is that they have to be taken in larger broods to unlock the extra mortal wounds (one full brood of 6 will do more work than two smaller broods of 3), so prior to the Smite nerf it was more efficient to just spend those points on Neurothropes. With the increasing casting cost and cap on the number of redundant units Zoanthropes are much more attractive now, though one still probably doesn't want more than 1 brood of 6 in most games due to the cost.

Also in regards to the Neurothrope, they are still quite useful to have as they are the cheapest way to open up new detachments and still can hide behind other models. Spamming them isn't as useful though since they will run out of unique powers to cast (especially if other psykers are present) and mass Smite with them will result in the casting cap going up very quickly.


Venomthropes are useful but they really want to be near the front lines where they can rely on threat overload to keep them safe (they aren't as appealing a target with facing down a swarm of Hormagaunts or Genestealers) and to make use of their melee stats which are actually fairly reasonable. Besides providing shrouding coverage in a wide area, they also can provide an element of anti-air capability for a melee swarm since they have Fly and both their melee and shooting attacks get to reroll failed wound rolls and they can cause mortal wounds while engaged. Malanthropes in contrast are much happier in the backfield since their character rule works better with more things between them and the enemy while also providing synapse coverage to keep artillery beasts on target.

blueshift wrote:

3. Toxicrene or Maleceptor?

Both have their uses, though broadly speaking the Toxicrene is a much better fighter while the Malceptor is tankier and more focused on mortal wound generation.

Toxicrene:


Malceptor:

blueshift wrote:

7. Tyrannofex or Tervigon?

For general purposes the Tyrannofex is better. The Tervigon has a very specific style of list it wants to be used in (min-maxed with lots of T8 big bugs and large Termagant units to providing screening) and generally needs to be used in pairs or trios to get the most out of their replenishment abilities. The Tyrannofex can basically slot in to just about any list without really caring about Hive Fleet adaptation (though Kronos has very good synergy with its Weapon Beast rule).

blueshift wrote:
i'm sitting here ready to assemble a bunch of stuff and i just remembered i haven't used niddies since 6th edition. i need to know the following:
1. whats a good loadout for carnifexen?
2. zoanthropes, venomthropes or neurothropes?
3. Toxicrene or Maleceptor?
4. are broodlords too overcosted now? what about genestealers? preferred loadout for them?
5. warriors or shrikes? preferred loadouts?
6. are malanthropes still worth running?
7. Tyrannofex or Tervigon?

1.) Pure Dakkafex (2x Dev) with Spore Cist and Enhanced Sense or Screamer killers pure melee with OOE
2.) Venom for -1 shroud as that is vital this edition for survivability. Need 4 to shroud MC, take a malanthrope if available but has a smaller aura area of effect. Neuro are great cheap HQ units and smite spam.
3.) Neither is really showing up in current competitive scene. had a GT two weeks ago, 9 nids players, I don't think anyone had them.
4.) Broodlords are a bit expensive, Best with either Ygmarl Factor or the Monster Rending Claws relic, but not needed. Genesetealers are a must, rending claws, Scy tals, Acid Maws, NO extended carapace.
5.) Warriors are decent, best with Leviathan IMO with a Prime, but you need to go pure warrior list with Devourers and Scy Tals Or for slightly more punch Boneswords and Deathspitters. Take the Venom cannon per every 3. Units of 6-9. Didn't see any warriors in most recent GT.
6.) They can be, a bit expensive at 140, at 90 they were a steal, 120 would be fair price. Issue with them is speed and small aura. Really only going to be viable turn 1 unless you daisy chain. I normally run Metabolic Overdrive on it to have it keep up with my GS and Flyrants and Swarmlord. I am considering Venomthropes now for bigger aura and slightly cheaper point cost (though they can be targeted) and Malanthrope can't.
7.) Tyrannofex can be good with rupture cannon. Normally need 2. Tervigons are sadly not to good from a competitive perspective. If you do take them you need at least 2.

Every list had Genestealers, Neurothropes, and Hive Guard with Impaler cannons for CC, Synapse and smite, Anti tank respectively. Most list had a termagants, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Carnifex. Also take a unit or 2 of rippers for DS recon points.

 Dynas wrote:

2.) Venom for -1 shroud as that is vital this edition for survivability. Need 4 to shroud MC

The rule triggers at 3 actually, but larger broods are still a good idea to provide ablative bodies for the effect (and adds more attacks if they make it to combat).

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 Dynas wrote:

2.) Venom for -1 shroud as that is vital this edition for survivability. Need 4 to shroud MC

The rule triggers at 3 actually, but larger broods are still a good idea to provide ablative bodies for the effect (and adds more attacks if they make it to combat).

yeah i meant for extra measure to be effective, you normally lose 1.