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Made in gb
Been Around the Block





The only Chaos I own is Death Guard and anything that's in the Death Guard codex as I just love the whole look of the army, so since I bought the box set and a friends changed their mind about wanting to go halfs so they can get a knight I now have a spare knight and with the Renegade index being free and with a spare knight I was thinking why not give it to my Death Guard. But I don't know what would be the best options for a Knight for a Death Guard army, i was thinking since I have a cannon from still in a spruce from a old knight I'd try it with two rapid-fire battle cannons and a storm spear rocket pod. I don't know if this is a good option for the knight or not, so please let me know your thoughts and advice.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Rapid fire battle cannon is a preeetty bad choice. In fact, i'd say it is the worst gun you could pick. The best option is the gatling gun for range, and the best melee option is a fist. However, mix and match as you please!...Just don't go double rapid fire
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 vaklor4 wrote:
Rapid fire battle cannon is a preeetty bad choice. In fact, i'd say it is the worst gun you could pick. The best option is the gatling gun for range, and the best melee option is a fist. However, mix and match as you please!...Just don't go double rapid fire

How so? they look quite nice, 72" range, 2D6 shots, S8 -2AP and D3 damage.
   
Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Ohio

Double gattling cannon is an award choice. Or as already mentioned, melee plus gun. Just not the BC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 angelrei wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
Rapid fire battle cannon is a preeetty bad choice. In fact, i'd say it is the worst gun you could pick. The best option is the gatling gun for range, and the best melee option is a fist. However, mix and match as you please!...Just don't go double rapid fire

How so? they look quite nice, 72" range, 2D6 shots, S8 -2AP and D3 damage.
the damage output is wonky at best.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 10:21:09


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Renegade knights are the only ones that can take double gatling cannons and it's ridiculously good. Nobody with hordes will want to charge it and they won't be able to stand up to the amount of bullets it can output to begin with. Worst case, you fight something with T7+ and the 24+ S6 bullets still rip it to shreds...

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Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






 angelrei wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
Rapid fire battle cannon is a preeetty bad choice. In fact, i'd say it is the worst gun you could pick. The best option is the gatling gun for range, and the best melee option is a fist. However, mix and match as you please!...Just don't go double rapid fire

How so? they look quite nice, 72" range, 2D6 shots, S8 -2AP and D3 damage.


2d6 is actually pretty awful. Sure, you CAN get 12 shots...But the gun is way too based on luck, especially since it's d3 damage. What this essentially makes it is a gun that CAN damage heavy tanks...But at d3 damage and -2 AP, you're better off going for elites. Which makes the 8 strength more or less redundent. The gatling cannon just puts out more consistent damage, especially since we have a reroll all hit stratagem now, to make the best of the 100% guarenteed 12 shots.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Okay so double Gatling gun it is then from all the love its getting, any good choice then for the top mounted weapon?
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

4D6 shots with two rapid fire battle cannons sounds fantastic. Play the re-roll failed hit rolls stratagem when you get a good number of shots. For melee you still have titanic feet.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 p5freak wrote:
4D6 shots with two rapid fire battle cannons sounds fantastic. Play the re-roll failed hit rolls stratagem when you get a good number of shots. For melee you still have titanic feet.

So far your the only one that seems to agree with the two battle cannons while everyone else is saying two Gatling guns instead.
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





with the new re roll to hit stratagem i still feel double gatling is better, 24 re rollable 3+ hits are not a thing to laugh at. With rapid fire battlecannon if you roll average you will get 14 hits, 10 less than gatling ok they are str8 but same ap and d3 damage and you can roll 1's.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 11:10:15


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 angelrei wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
4D6 shots with two rapid fire battle cannons sounds fantastic. Play the re-roll failed hit rolls stratagem when you get a good number of shots. For melee you still have titanic feet.

So far your the only one that seems to agree with the two battle cannons while everyone else is saying two Gatling guns instead.


The biggest issue is a knight is paying 104 points as the stubber isn't optional, for the same shooting as a Leman Russ 2 Russes have 24 wounds and the same shots for sub 400 points a knight is paying just under 500 for the same not bad value but it's an expensive 5++
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Also, gatling is 2 damage flat while RFBC is d3. 2 flat is always better than d3.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 vaklor4 wrote:
Also, gatling is 2 damage flat while RFBC is d3. 2 flat is always better than d3.

Would you say a combo of RFBC and Gatling is also bad?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





It takes up bad RFBC in place of awesome gatling. Yeah. It's less sucky than 2 RFBC but worse than 2 gatlings.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Magnetize the arms and leave yourself with options.

Knights are expensive models, the game continues to evolve, and you don't want to be stuck with the worst guns on a pricey model.

   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





It's not that the RFBC is inherently a bad weapon. You look at that statline and sure it's pretty sweet! Average 7 shots at Strength 8 is nothing to sniff at.

The problem is how it stacks up to other options and how much you pay for it.

First off to compare power to the Gatling Cannon. The AGC gets 12 shots. Always. 2 damage is also quite a bit better than D3 because of how many 2 wound models there are. You never leave a Primaris with 1W left. It is lower strength, but a lot more Dakka on average. In fact against everything except T7 targets, the volume of shots more than makes up for the lower strength. That includes T8, yes the AGC maths better against T8 than the RFBC.

This wouldn't be so bad really, there's a lot of T7 out there. It's probably the most common vehicle toughness for many armies. But the thing is that even versus T7, the RFBC only just beats the AGC. It's VERY close. So by taking the RFBC you are significantly worse against many targets to be very slightly better against one specific type of target.

Secondly, all this comparison of course has to be taken in the context of what you're paying for it. And the RFBC, despite being usually worse, is actually MORE expensive. That's the nail in the coffin, and why it really is considered so bad.

Third point to consider though is that none of this math takes in to account ranges. The RFBC, in its defense, has significantly longer range. Very often you would be able to park your Knight in a corner and unload without much fear of retaliation. This does have its own problems though. You are paying points for a mobile, durable model which you have hiding at the back. This is NOT very efficient. You could take 4 Basilisks (even as Chaos, yay Renegades and Heretics!) for the price of a Knight, which will put out as much firepower, with more wounds, and lovely lovely indirect fire. Basically if all you want is artillery then there are much better ways to achieve it.

Final thought: all this math and efficiency analysis is well and good, but Knights are expensive centre piece models. If you want a Knight that fulfills a particular fantasy I say forget about all this and go for it! It's not going to be terrible by any means, and if you like it that is the most important thing. Also, the pendulum swings! Come chapter approved or next edition or whatever the RFBC could easily become the better choice. Your Knight will hopefully be around for years, so I wouldn't get too caught up in min maxing over what you personally like

EDIT: Oh, and on a practical note: it's pretty expensive to get a second AGC. There's a lot of people after them since the Renegades boxed set came out, as there's only 1 between the two Knights in the set. The Warden sprue is therefore in high demand, I'm usually seeing it go for somewhere in the region of £25 to £30 now! RFBC should be significantly easier to source, as every Knight gets one and they are less desirable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/25 12:51:15


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws



Sioux Falls, SD

As great as double Gatling cannon is, you should probably magnetize the weapons so you can swap between them, it is nice to be able to change out the weapons when you need to and to take them off when transporting the knight. Also magnetize the hip joint for easier transport.

Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Well my old knight has the Gatling and cannon but can easily take the arms off and give the extra Gatling to the renegade knight and just use the spar weapons to give the old knight a thermal cannon and melee weapon.

*edit* I may just mag the extra cannon and run two just for fun one day since the double Gatling seems the best option from everyones advice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 13:03:37


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Check out this chart from Cephalobeard (on the Legacy knight thread in 40K tactics): https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2018/6/11/374559d65427938e88ecbc681aa4eb09_100884.png
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

 mmzero252 wrote:
Renegade knights are the only ones that can take double gatling cannons and it's ridiculously good. Nobody with hordes will want to charge it and they won't be able to stand up to the amount of bullets it can output to begin with. Worst case, you fight something with T7+ and the 24+ S6 bullets still rip it to shreds...


So any kind of mechanized force like sisters is going to rip apart that knight? Double cannons are not as bad as you are insisting, and at some point they will run into that buzz saw.....

Where as the range and strength of those cannons is going to handle pretty much anything. Death guard already have issues against mech armies, and you are suggesting handing him more anti personal in an army that doesn't need more anti personal......

 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 sfshilo wrote:
 mmzero252 wrote:
Renegade knights are the only ones that can take double gatling cannons and it's ridiculously good. Nobody with hordes will want to charge it and they won't be able to stand up to the amount of bullets it can output to begin with. Worst case, you fight something with T7+ and the 24+ S6 bullets still rip it to shreds...


So any kind of mechanized force like sisters is going to rip apart that knight? Double cannons are not as bad as you are insisting, and at some point they will run into that buzz saw.....

Where as the range and strength of those cannons is going to handle pretty much anything. Death guard already have issues against mech armies, and you are suggesting handing him more anti personal in an army that doesn't need more anti personal......


The AGC is not just anti personnel. It is actually better at killing Land Raiders than the RFBC is.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




4d6 RFBC backed up by 9 Heavy Stubber shots isn't that terrible.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






It isn't terrible, it's just not as effective or versatile.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Reemule wrote:
4d6 RFBC backed up by 9 Heavy Stubber shots isn't that terrible.


Absolutely! In a vacuum it's great. It's just sub optimal in the wider context of the game.

But the hobby isn't just about optimisation. So if the OP likes RFBCs he should go for it.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






It comes down to the fact that you could very potentially roll 4-8 shots for 200 points of battle cannons. When if you go gatling, you never have to worry about low volume. Averages are great and all, but there is a reason why the d6 on a meltagun is still piss poor for its points.
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Check out this chart from Cephalobeard (on the Legacy knight thread in 40K tactics): https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2018/6/11/374559d65427938e88ecbc681aa4eb09_100884.png


For the hell of it (not sure how valuable it is, really) I took the mean values of the Renegade Knight options from that table to demonstrate each weapon's performance against all targets. Stubbers and meltas were not included in the original chart, so I don't have them either. This is damage per turn.



Dual (akimbo) gatling wins against the other two guns. Melta is close, but when you look at the original table the damage is obviously skewed toward vehicles. Flamer/harpoon dominus does more damage than a volcano dominus who isn't overcharging plasma.

Anyway, this may be totally pointless but for some reason I enjoy making tables in Excel...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/25 13:56:50


 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





It's not pointless, just important to remember that the number of different targets, chosen somewhat arbitrarily, will skew the data.

What it tells us basically is that the higher the number the 'better' it generally is. But theoretically you could have a weapon that scored highly on this chart but was actually pretty terrible in practice.
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





And adding a stormspear pod will of course add a few wounds, all but guaranteeing a rhino/russ will be crippled to near uselessness - for dual avengers, that is.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
And adding a stormspear pod will of course add a few wounds, all but guaranteeing a rhino/russ will be crippled to near uselessness - for dual avengers, that is.


Dual Gatling's does an average of 7 damage to a Russ. Stormspear adds another 2, so expecting 9 total. So about 50/50 to take them to their bottom damage row.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Seems from that table running round as a Ninja with two thermal cannons beats two rapid fire battle cannons as well and I didn't know the volcano weapon could be overcharged.
   
 
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