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Recently, I have been re-watching the Macross portion of Robotech. Even after all these years, the show still amazes me. But I can readily admit that it makes for hard watching in 2018. A friend asked me whether enjoying Robotech today requires nostalgia. To me, nostalgia means enjoying the memories associated with something moreso than the thing itself. And I don't think that is true of Robotech, at least not for me. In fact, I think that enjoying Robotech in 2018 actually requires a degree of objectivity. One has to be able to understand the context of the show: How anime was brand new in the US in those days. How most television, and virtually all children's programming, was episodic rather than arc-driven. And of course the behind-the-scenes struggle to forge a single continuous narrative from three unrelated licensed properties.

Any Robotech fans on Dakka Dakka tried re-watching it lately? Any new fans?

Its not too difficult. As you noted, one has to remember that this is like Forbidden Planet or The Thing From Another World. It was groundbreaking at the time.

The positive available to us is that we can FF through the crummy bits (anything with Lin Min May causes me uncontrollable explosive diarrhea even then).

I haven't seen Robotech but I am familiar with the original Japanese films (Macross: Do You Remember Love? etc) it is based on, which are still occasionally played on Japanese TV.)

About the same time as Robotech, or earlier in some cases, a lot of European countries had localisations of various Japanese anime such as Marine Boy, Danguard, Heidi, and Mysterious Cities of Gold. These also were a revelation in terms of story arc and so on, as you have said about Robotech,

Minmei has really grown on me over the years. I totally bought into the notion, supported by the show's narrator, that Minmei represents girlish naivete while Lisa represents a more grounded personality. But on this watch, well, it is starting to seem like the reverse.

Minmei seems to understand that she is too young to get into any serious relationship. She also has a pretty clear vision of her goals and even encourages Rick to enlist, given flying is what he loves, when he's listless and depressed. Minmei does her duty by exercising her talents and therefore understands that Rick can do the same - and she figures it out for him, honestly.

Meanwhile, Lisa actually seems very immature. She is hung up on Karl to the point of basically throwing a fit at Mars Base Sara at the risk of both her life and Rick's. Aboard the Zentraedi ship, Lisa has trouble holding it together. She reveals that she basically only knows a military life and that in this terrible situation she the only straw she could grasp for was "the mission." So she goes to pieces when her micro recorder breaks and tells Rick to leave her and save himself. Rick is like lolwut and this is the moment when Lisa seems to grow up a little, although it more like she just develops a crush on Rick.

Rather than Lisa being the mature one, it's probably closer to the truth that she's more palatable than Minmei because she seems to need Rick, whereas the show emphasizes Rick's anxiety that Minmei doesn't need him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kikrazy: The year before Robotech, we had Voltron in the US. It's another redubbed American series cobbled together from various Japanese shows. But unlike Harmony Gold, WEP cut all the more mature stuff out of Voltron and the lobotomized remains, while delightful to my child brain, are basically unwatchable to me as an adult. (Fortunately, Netflix has entirely remade the series in the last couple of years.) So stateside Robotech was the first "strong" taste of anime for a lot of viewers.

 Manchu wrote:
Recently, I have been re-watching the Macross portion of Robotech. Even after all these years, the show still amazes me. But I can readily admit that it makes for hard watching in 2018. A friend asked me whether enjoying Robotech today requires nostalgia. To me, nostalgia means enjoying the memories associated with something moreso than the thing itself. And I don't think that is true of Robotech, at least not for me. In fact, I think that enjoying Robotech in 2018 actually requires a degree of objectivity. One has to be able to understand the context of the show: How anime was brand new in the US in those days. How most television, and virtually all children's programming, was episodic rather than arc-driven. And of course the behind-the-scenes struggle to forge a single continuous narrative from three unrelated licensed properties.

Any Robotech fans on Dakka Dakka tried re-watching it lately? Any new fans?

I tried rewatching it and reading the old novels at the same time more than once recently. While I enjoyed it, I tended to lose interest after a couple weeks each time. I don't really have any time to watch TV except while doing chores, so the slow pace of an episode every few days killed it for me more than the content. I think the show holds up for the most part, except for the Minmei and Rick stuff.

If you can find it (because Harmony Gold sucks) Macross Frontier is one of the newer Macross shows that rehashes the original series plot a bit but with several twists and such. It's very very good and stands up a bit better than Robotech does all of these years later.

I'm a huge Robotech fan but you do need to watch it with the knowledge that it was a product of its time.

It was one of my first animes and I still enjoy...but wish minmei would die...horrifically...and painfully

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
except for the Minmei and Rick stuff

What doesn't hold up for you? Watching it again this past weekend, as I mentioned above, it feels very fresh to me seeing Minmei as a more mature, together person whereas in the past I just assumed she was selfish and ditsy.

ValentineGames wrote:
wish minmei would die...horrifically...and painfully

Thanks in large part to Kyle, Minmei's storyline definitely gets pretty dark.

 Manchu wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
except for the Minmei and Rick stuff

What doesn't hold up for you? Watching it again this past weekend, as I mentioned above, it feels very fresh to me seeing Minmei as a more mature, together person whereas in the past I just assumed she was selfish and ditsy.

I don't have a problem with her personality but I'm just not interested in her character or Rick's or their dynamic, and I don't like how it affects the pacing. I'm watching the show for the sci fi elements, usually while doing other things, so I end up just tuning out the whole show when she and Rick are talking, and end up looking for a distraction from the distraction. Sometimes I will try to fast forward to the next plot scene or action scene, but usually if I get that bored or annoyed I'll just go to youtube and play the Robotech soundtrack (well, three songs from it over and over again) until that itch is scratched and then start reading or watching something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they don't hold up for me. The whole era of forced romantic subplots is past, in my opinion.

To me, the romance isn't forced but rather a central aspect of the show's theme. When the show starts in 1999, all of Earth is engulfed with war. The arrival of the alien ship forces peace, but only in order to prepare for the next war, the war against the aliens. When the aliens arrive, they turn out to be humans who have forgotten everything but warfare.

Minmei's storyline is emblematic of the larger theme of civilians caught up in war. Macross City itself is swallowed up in the innards of the SDF-1. The ship is both the armor that protects the city as well as the source of all the city's woes (considering the Zentraedi are after the ship itself). The people of Macross City lift Minmei up as a teen idol and the non-militaristic ways of the "Micronians," especially Minmei's songs and image, transfix and ultimately undermine the Zentraedi military.

Of course, the theme of how humanity overcomes violence is nowhere more clear than the romance between super aces Max and Miryia.

The evolving feelings of Rick first for Minmei and eventually for Lisa depict Rick's development from a civilian to a hardened veteran, even though he is just a rather naive young man throughout.

Yes, I see what you are describing. I'm not disputing it. However, I am just not patient enough to engage with the material on its terms. This might come across as watching Fury Road for the car chases, but I only watch Robotech for the space battles.

I gotcha. I just would never have the patience to watch Robotech for the space battles given so many of them are nearly incoherent and/or just involved the Zentraedi attacking and then, for completely internal reasons, recalling their forces.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Macross: Do You Remember Love?

I was going to make a joke about that but now I can't since you brought it up first in a proper context. Darn you and your reasonable memory!

I watched the American cartoon when I could but it seemed like every time I did it was episode where Rick and Minmei were trapped inside the SDF-1. I saw most of those episodes but never saw any of the (what would be called in the US) Southern Cross or Invid Invasion episodes. Now what I did do was read the books in middle school. I tore through those all the way up to Sentinels but had trouble finding them past the first one and never got back around to it. The Valkyrie is still one of my favorite mech designs.

The show may be questionable as to its modern value but that intro...my goodness that intro.

 Manchu wrote:
I gotcha. I just would never have the patience to watch Robotech for the space battles given so many of them are nearly incoherent and/or just involved the Zentraedi attacking and then, for completely internal reasons, recalling their forces.

Maybe that's why I've only been able to watch a handful of episodes per...go. Is there a word for a periodic spurt of obsession, like fans have when they cycle into and out of various series or hobbies?

I generally agree about Minmei and Lisa. The Lisa storylines aged very poorly IMO. Minmei seems like a stronger person in a number of ways.

I rewatched the Macross saga recently and got through it well enough. Then I tried doing the same with Masters/Southern Cross and...WOOF. It was so bad it even put me off on the idea of skipping ahead to New Generation/Invid Invasion. I just...had to stop.

@Bob: I know exactly what you mean by cyclical interests. My wife calls them "phases."

@Gorgon: Agree wholeheartedly, I have never been able to get into Southern Cross. NewGen is bumpy but there have been a few times over the years where it really sucks me in. About Lisa, her whole obsession with Lynn Kyle - seriously WTF?

I watched it with my daughter a couple of years ago, when she was a pre-teen. She thought it got a bit too intense for her, and she was on the edge of her seat even through the boring dynamics. I actually got more reaction to this than Star Wars.

My wife also was doing her thing. However, as the show went on, she stopped what she was doing and sat down to watch it with us, then joined in as we continued.

It holds up pretty well still. I mean, not many shows can pull off destroying the world as the backdrop for a love triangle.

Edit: Agreed on Southern Cross. The different army designs and such int eh sourcebook are awesome.... but the actual show. Just bad and uncompelling.

The Invid One is much better, but the kid (Annie?) s soooo, soooo annoying.

It is so cool to hear how first your daughter got into the show and then even your wife started to watch it. To me, it goes to show how this cartoon prefigured the current dominant entertainment paradigm: arc-driven storytelling focusing on human drama.

Being my favourite IP, I still love watching Robotech. The art has aged, but the IP/lore/story is still there. The characters are still pretty great. I think it's akin to many old movies - if you watch them now the effects may be dated, the outfits questionable, and the acting somewhat campy...but it can still be a good product.

You can't throw Robotech: Macross Saga at someone who hasn't seen it and not prepare them for the fact it's 30+ years old now.

I hate Robotech. I used to settle for it when I couldn't access anime in the US, but I lived in South East Asia when Macross was airing, and that along with all the toys and models, made for some amazing times. But the US version is just garbage. The narration, music, edits scenes, just robs the original of its glory.

I got this book many years ago, and still have it. Its one of my favorites:



It breaks down all the technical designs from the valkyries to designs of the SDF-1 bridge. If there is a coffee cup in the background in a scene, its in this book. Easily the most comprehensive book I have ever scene on any series. I used to be an artist and carried this book around with me all over the place as inspiration. The technical designs are just brilliant.

One of the coolest things in Macross is the first battle. You have a bombardment from space, the battle for air superiority, the humans being pushed back to Macross city, the ground invasion, the counter attack in space, and then retreat. I haven't scene anything that comprehensive in any other anime or film. Normally things are dedicated to mostly air like Independence Day, or ground like in War of the Worlds. Macross was very well thought out. Not sure if all of you know this, but the original series was supposed to be limited to the final battle around Earth in space. The series was so popular they hastily extended it to cover the aftermath, which is why it feels rushed and the art is poorer.

I haven't followed Macross much since. I did like Macross Plus, but once things started getting into things like playing guitars and music while flying, it jumped the shark for me. I didn't need Macross Zero and actually think its ridiculous that Earth had transforming plans prior to the SDF-1 crashing. It was supposed to be the technology transfer that helped with that, as well as the realization that the aliens were gigantic that they even had the fighters transform to begin with. I do think 'Do You remember Love' is superior in some aspects too and probably defer to that these days, but I appreciate both.

KTG: Marcoss Zero was actually set during the reconstruction of the SDF-1 and what you saw was just early prototypes of what you got in Macross. I don't think there was any mention of preexisting Valkaries prior to SDF-1, of human design at least. Macros Frontier was better than Macross 7 fwiw.

I think Robotech holds up much better than most US cartoons from the time (I have no idea why I ever was obsessed with Thundercats or later could go from reading the original TMNT comics and watch the cartoon with no problems). My only real stumbling is with it is still, to borrow from Macross 2, the Minmei attack in the climactic space battle. Admittedly I will also agree with the Zentraedi on the factory satellite: babies are horrifying.

I'll take Robotech over the base series it was edited from or the Macross franchise as a whole. For Gen 1/Macross it's simply because I can watch Robotech in English so I can do other things while I watch. Later versions of Macross still rely even more heavily on the whole music and love battle war and hate, except for Macross Plus (imo the best of the bunch). Robotech does improve on Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEDA. MOSPEDA isn't bad, but it lacks the same epic feel on its own considering that humans are trying to retake Earth from Mars instead of from outside the solar system. If you guys think Robotech Gen 2 was hard to watch though, believe me that SDCSC is worse. At least it gives a kind of reason why anyone would put Dana in command of a squad, why she can actually be affective, and why she is tolerant of alien invaders. IIRC, Jean was mainly looking for a man in the army. I think the only real hard part in Gen 3 is Amie, but if you can deal with Minmei, you can survive her. Then again Gen 3 holds a weird spot for me as I probably didn't get to see it again for over 20 years.

Off Topic: any one else remember Macron 1? I haven't seen that one since the 80s but I still get the damn theme song stuck in my head even now.

 KTG17 wrote:
I hate Robotech. I used to settle for it when I couldn't access anime in the US, but I lived in South East Asia when Macross was airing, and that along with all the toys and models, made for some amazing times. But the US version is just garbage. The narration, music, edits scenes, just robs the original of its glory.

I got this book many years ago, and still have it. Its one of my favorites:



It breaks down all the technical designs from the valkyries to designs of the SDF-1 bridge. If there is a coffee cup in the background in a scene, its in this book. Easily the most comprehensive book I have ever scene on any series. I used to be an artist and carried this book around with me all over the place as inspiration. The technical designs are just brilliant.

One of the coolest things in Macross is the first battle. You have a bombardment from space, the battle for air superiority, the humans being pushed back to Macross city, the ground invasion, the counter attack in space, and then retreat. I haven't scene anything that comprehensive in any other anime or film. Normally things are dedicated to mostly air like Independence Day, or ground like in War of the Worlds. Macross was very well thought out. Not sure if all of you know this, but the original series was supposed to be limited to the final battle around Earth in space. The series was so popular they hastily extended it to cover the aftermath, which is why it feels rushed and the art is poorer.

I haven't followed Macross much since. I did like Macross Plus, but once things started getting into things like playing guitars and music while flying, it jumped the shark for me. I didn't need Macross Zero and actually think its ridiculous that Earth had transforming plans prior to the SDF-1 crashing. It was supposed to be the technology transfer that helped with that, as well as the realization that the aliens were gigantic that they even had the fighters transform to begin with. I do think 'Do You remember Love' is superior in some aspects too and probably defer to that these days, but I appreciate both.

I also thought highly of Do You Remember Love? It's a great way to basically bullet point the entirety of the Macross Saga up until the destruction of the Zentraedi fleet. It also has the benefit of having that scene where Minmei begs Hikaru to abandon the Earth and run away with her, and he stoically slaps her in response. My friend replayed that small segment over and over.

As a series, Robotech still comes off as disjointed as a whole. If I try to show it to anyone, I tell them that stopping at the end of the Macross Saga won't make them lose out on anything other than the magnificence that is Rook Bartley.

I'll also watch subtitles over any dubbed series or film as well. Its amazing what can be lost in a scene by messing with a few words to match the lips.

Not to mention all the 'Ah''s that plague the end of every dubbed sentence in anime.

Not gonna lie. I thought the thread title said 'Robo Cop' originally. Now i'm kinda in the mood for that.

Macross still has some of the best designs in history. None of the susequent ones have managed to do anything but gild the lily.

I'm also still impressed with the whole aspect of winning over your enemies, it's odd that American entertainment almost never uses that theme while it is all over Japanese. I can't help but see a WWII reference in there.

Going to quickly post some images I found on Google from Macross Perfect Memory to show how amazing this book is:


Look at the fine detail of the bridge...



Catapult for the Valkyrie's???? Amazing they would give it this much attention...



The line art for the armor isn't the cool thing, its the smaller detail pictures I used to stare at till I was blind as a kid, Or the hallway the suit is walking down. Loved that stuff.



Also, this might be my favorite piece of Macross art:



I think I saw this one for the first time in Heavy Metal magazine of all places. Yes, that French adult comic magazine, way back in the day. The great thing about this art piece is that it really doesn't have robots in it, nor look kiddy. Just straight up a badass pic of art for a sci-fi series. I just makes you want to know more about it.

The entire advent of the giant robot was a direct reaction to the aftermath of WWII and Japan's restriction on military hardware such as tanks.

Can't have tanks? Well there's nothing about giant robots...

 vonjankmon wrote:
The entire advent of the giant robot was a direct reaction to the aftermath of WWII and Japan's restriction on military hardware such as tanks.

Can't have tanks? Well there's nothing about giant robots...

Good point. As far as i know there were never any restrictions on showing hardware in fiction but it may have been a way to get over cultural taboos.