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Hi,

I have 3 simple rule additions which I think would peel back some power creep.

First. A special rule that units with power armor get. "This unit ignores ap of -1. Big weapons still hurt but if makes power armor worth it against mid range weapons and makes them better than light armor against them

2. Some kind of weapon that ingores or punishes invul saves but is ineffective against armor. 2 versions, first just a straight up ingore invul save, second a feed back weapon, subtract your invule save from your armor save and rol the difference. Don't give it to comanders but let sargents and elites take them.

3rd. Would be a special rule normal units get. Called "he's only 1 man." Charcters shooting at this unit suffer minus 1 to hit and may not use any of their own buffs to modify or re-roll hits or wounds.

I like invul saves but there are 2 many of them. And comanders hitting on 2s rerolling 1s are auto hits. Which is fine but it pushes the important roll further down the chain. Now its not the hit roll that matters or even the wound but it all comes down to the save, which I think is what is leading to tje proliferation of invul saves.

I think point 2 is a non-starter. Invulns are part of the game, so hard pass, other than stuff like the Deathwatch Xenos phase blade, which makes your opponent reroll successful invuln saves.

Point 1 is being discussed in how to fix power armor threads all over.

Point 3...just stop characters from benefitting from their own auras. This is really complicated and over involved, and we don't need more rules to remember.

Power armor doesn't need to be buffed, space marines just need to be costed appropriately.

w1zard wrote:
Power armor doesn't need to be buffed, space marines just need to be costed appropriately.

True, but i'll be the first to admit that "power armor hordes" just feel...wrong to me.

Ok. I think giving power armor the ignore ap of -1 would be a good mechanical fix. And apropriatly fluffy.

Point 3. Charchters don't benift from their own buffs. Simpler and does the same. Your way is better.


Point 2 I like invul saves, I like that they are part of the game but I think there are too many of them. The DE have them army wide. Every bit of heavy armor needs it or no one take it seriously. Custodes 2+/3++? Seriously?

If they use the imgnores ap of rule they can do have the same effect but with more nuiance.

Grotesques? Instead of a 5 up invul give them a 5 up ingores ap -1 2 3. Still tough but if you put a deadicated geavy weapon on them they will go down. It also means there are 2 ways to handle them. Massed fire, make them roll lots of dice, or heavy weapons, mid weapons not the right choice. With an invul save every weapon is the same.

Wytchs I would leave the same, that nice and fluffy. And they are fragile to start.

Broad side? 2+/5+ with ingores ap -1 and 2. Or at that point they may not even need an invul. They have those shield drones.


The problem with invul saves is they flatten the odds. An invul save is equally effective against every weapon. Reducing the number of units that can take them and adding a "ignores ap rule" adds some spikes back into the statistics.

3 points, all over the place


1-yea, its reasonable to improve the PA units, but just how many -1 AP weapons are currently considered useful in the meta? not alot. and you just made them a hell less attractive, and it turn made the all-powerful plasma even more dominant.

2-so, daemons are now unplayable? anti-invul weapons exis in this game, but are rare and expensive for a reason.

3--would be absurd that the guy can improve the shooting abilities of his buddy's while not being any better himself, don't you think?

I think Melta weapons ought to impose a penalty to Invul saves if they're super close but that's about it, along with certain armies gaining Strategems to help combat it (Thousand Sons and Grey Knights being the perfect candidates for that).

For power armor, that's more an issue with both cost and the Bolt weapon being overall garbage.

Your character rule is just silly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think Melta weapons ought to impose a penalty to Invul saves if they're super close but that's about it, along with certain armies gaining Strategems to help combat it (Thousand Sons and Grey Knights being the perfect candidates for that).

For power armor, that's more an issue with both cost and the Bolt weapon being overall garbage.

Your character rule is just silly.

I really can't see why you think the two armies with unfettered access to smite spam need another way to bypass invulnerable saves?

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think Melta weapons ought to impose a penalty to Invul saves if they're super close but that's about it, along with certain armies gaining Strategems to help combat it (Thousand Sons and Grey Knights being the perfect candidates for that).

For power armor, that's more an issue with both cost and the Bolt weapon being overall garbage.

Your character rule is just silly.

I really can't see why you think the two armies with unfettered access to smite spam need another way to bypass invulnerable saves?

Because of more Psyker shenanigans improving their ammo and such.
Saying GK has unfettered access to Smite was kinda funny though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think Melta weapons ought to impose a penalty to Invul saves if they're super close but that's about it, along with certain armies gaining Strategems to help combat it (Thousand Sons and Grey Knights being the perfect candidates for that).

For power armor, that's more an issue with both cost and the Bolt weapon being overall garbage.

Your character rule is just silly.

I really can't see why you think the two armies with unfettered access to smite spam need another way to bypass invulnerable saves?

Because of more Psyker shenanigans improving their ammo and such.
Saying GK has unfettered access to Smite was kinda funny though.

It's watered down but its still smite and still spamable.
As to why GW rules team felt the need to nerf GK ask them if they can explain.
Also given some of the rather knee-jerk balance changes I could see that suddenly becoming full smite without warning.

My question would be: who hurt you? In other words, what game of 40k did you play where you suddenly decided Invulnerable saves and re-roll auras were overpowered and power armour is under powered?

With the amount of AP in this game, invlunerable saves are needed to stop extremely expensive units from being insta-killed and to have people pay through the nose for a 2+/3++ on Terminators for instance, only for you to punish them for such a costly investment seems overpowered. You'll once again shift the meta further and further from elite units towards the Horde singularity in 8th ed.

And power armour isn't underpowered, stick a unit of marines in cover and your opponant will have to dedicate AP-2 and up fire power to shift them, marines are underpowered. They need something but having them ignore AP-1 weapons steals the Rubric Marines special rule.

As for your character rule, why? You can already hide your Character behind other units, you don't need an extra rule tacked on top of that.

 iGuy91 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Power armor doesn't need to be buffed, space marines just need to be costed appropriately.

True, but i'll be the first to admit that "power armor hordes" just feel...wrong to me.

That is because with the changes to AP and wounds in 8th edition, the standard tactical marine statline is dead. Space marines should have primaris statlines and primaris marines shouldn't exist.

 mrhappyface wrote:
My question would be: who hurt you? In other words, what game of 40k did you play where you suddenly decided Invulnerable saves and re-roll auras were overpowered and power armour is under powered?

With the amount of AP in this game, invlunerable saves are needed to stop extremely expensive units from being insta-killed and to have people pay through the nose for a 2+/3++ on Terminators for instance, only for you to punish them for such a costly investment seems overpowered. You'll once again shift the meta further and further from elite units towards the Horde singularity in 8th ed.

And power armour isn't underpowered, stick a unit of marines in cover and your opponant will have to dedicate AP-2 and up fire power to shift them, marines are underpowered. They need something but having them ignore AP-1 weapons steals the Rubric Marines special rule.

As for your character rule, why? You can already hide your Character behind other units, you don't need an extra rule tacked on top of that.

Ok. I've herd what you (and others) said. Scrap the charcter rule. Adds one more rule with out really making any thing better. So never mind. But the answer the guy who asked how it makes sense that the comander could buff the troops but not him self, I will answer that if The Sir is shooting something went wrong already.


The other 2 rules are about the same thing. So toss the weapons that ingnore invul saves (although I do like adding that to close range melta, it gives ypu a reason to take melta instead of plasma)

Which leaves a power armor rule of some kind. Ignore ap of X. I think with more of those and fewer invul saves you add more chose back to list bilding.


Now to answer your question. What hurt me, well nothing. I'm undeafeated in 8th (I don't have a tonne of games in.) But over the week end I did fight at costodes list and tau with a broadside. Both were 2+/3++ which is just tedious. Costodes were few in number and I didn't mind their survivability. But they did have a land raider. I melted it in about half a round of shooting. Compare that to the broadside where I fired all my big guns at it for 3 rounds and didn't do a single wound. (Shield drones and every round he spent a comand point to reroll a save.)

Its not that the broadside is so tough thats the problem. Its that every list needs to be able to deal with sometjing as tough as a broad side, which means when it faces a landraider, which doesn't have an invul, the poor old land raider doesn't stand a chance.

The landraider is supposed to be an unstoppable engine of destruction. Now its just a joke.

My changes. Are small but wide spread. They could be made but GeeDubs doesn't make changes that way. It would invlove looking at every unit with power armor or an invul save and adjusting. I won't hold my breath.

They are designed to add complexity back into list building. I don't think ap value really matters on heavy weapons, so much that you aim them at has an invul only 1 worse than the armor.

And to shift the meta back to elite armies.

So you offer these changes because of one over powered Tau unit and one under powered Imperial unit?

A broadside doesn't have a 2+,3++ ever
It has a 2+ base and can be given a 4++ at the cost of a list of very important support systems.
If you mean a riptide its 2+,5++ and costs more than 5 custodes.
It can boost it to a 3++ at the cost of a mortal wound.

Marines suck, but since every dex since Astra Copyright and eldar dex's have to compete with them you don't solve the issue by trying to bring all the non marine codex's down to marine codex as its changing more Codex's than actually fixing the marine based ones.

P.S. if you bring everyone down to marine levels of damage output 8th edition with its cheap hoard favouring mechanics would be the slowest edition to play todate which given it's complete lack of tactical depth would be a disaster.

And to shift the meta back to elite armies.