Are Ultramarines annoying in HH?

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**Arcanis161**

I've finished stripping my army (red turned out to be pink), and now would be the perfect time to switch my 30k army to something new. I'm keeping some Thousand Sons for my 30k army, but I don't feel like taking an arguably OP army. I'm debating on Ultramarines as I have some bits, but I can't take them in good conscience if they're annoying. Are they annoying in the Horus' Heresy? (Asking here as this is more of a fluff question than a gaming question).

(Fire Hazard: please no flaming)

**phydaux**

Before he made his move Horus sent the Ultras on a wild goose chase, and Robu took the bait hook, line and sinker. He and the whole Legion were half way across the galaxy before he heard about the rebellion, and Horus & the Emperor were dead before he could make it back to Terra.

A couple of Legions, at least three, were ambushed in Istivan and BADLY beaten. Nearly wiped out. That's why they really don't feature in the fluff before 4th Ed. - Salamanders, Raven Guard, others.

Dark Angels sat it out due to internal strife.

I forget what the Space Wolves were doing.

Blood Angels and Imperial Fists stood shoulder to shoulder with the Emperor in defense of Holy Terra. And it cost the Blood Angels their Primarch.

**Mr Nobody**

Define 'annoying'.

Like, did they harass and hamper Horus's plans, or were they just an irritating character?

**Arcanis161**

Mr Nobody wrote:
Define 'annoying'.

Like, did they harass and hamper Horus's plans, or were they just an irritating character?

Annoying in Character and Personal Behaviour.

**EmpNortonII**

Arcanis161 wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
Define 'annoying'.

Like, did they harass and hamper Horus's plans, or were they just an irritating character?

Annoying in Character and Personal Behaviour.

If Rowboat Girlyman didn't have such a hard-on for making a new Imperium, other Legions would have made it to Terra in time to stop Horus. It's his fault that only the Scars, Fists, and Blood Angels were present on Terra in force.

**Mr Nobody**

EmpNortonII wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
Define 'annoying'.

Like, did they harass and hamper Horus's plans, or were they just an irritating character?

Annoying in Character and Personal Behaviour.

If Rowboat Girlyman didn't have such a hard-on for making a new Imperium, other Legions would have made it to Terra in time to stop Horus. It's his fault that only the Scars, Fists, and Blood Angels were present on Terra in force.

To be fair. He was working with a worst case scenario that Horus may have already won. Charging his way to Terra did not seem like a good prospect at the time.

Ultramarines can come off as irritating since they are the poster child of 40k. this gives them offensively high levels of plot armor. Personally I enjoy the portrayal of the Ultramarines in the Horus Heresy and never found anything to be particularly bothered over.

**BrianDavion**

Arcanis161 wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
Define 'annoying'.

Like, did they harass and hamper Horus's plans, or were they just an irritating character?

Annoying in Character and Personal Behaviour.

No they're not. granted I don't think they're irritating in 40k eaither, certainly not as much as the Ultramarine hate brigade is annoying.

**tneva82**

They aren't annoying in 40k except for bunch of whiners so not in 30k either. It's just in style to hate them. It's the ultramarine whiners who can't even spell right them or primarch that are annoying.

**Disciple of Fate**

I think if anything to me personally the 30K Ultramarines are more 'fun' than the 40K variety. Thanks to certain writers a lot of the 40K lore years and years ago had "codex this and codex that" snuck into it, but the fiction on 30K makes them a lot more fleshed out and feel less rigid compared to those years, when as tneva82 says, it was the in thing to hate on. 30K gave them some much needed character to raise them above the 40K vanilla flavor imo.

**Delvarus Centurion**

30k Ultramarines are the only ones I like and think are cool. The 40k lore made them into perfect and tasteless apple polishers.

**djones520**

phydaux wrote:
Before he made his move Horus sent the Ultras on a wild goose chase, and Robu took the bait hook, line and sinker. He and the whole Legion were half way across the galaxy before he heard about the rebellion, and Horus & the Emperor were dead before he could make it back to Terra.

A couple of Legions, at least three, were ambushed in Istivan and BADLY beaten. Nearly wiped out. That's why they really don't feature in the fluff before 4th Ed. - Salamanders, Raven Guard, others.

Dark Angels sat it out due to internal strife.

I forget what the Space Wolves were doing.

Blood Angels and Imperial Fists stood shoulder to shoulder with the Emperor in defense of Holy Terra. And it cost the Blood Angels their Primarch.

Apparently someone hasn't read a shred of the Horus Heresy novels.

**BrianDavion**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
30k Ultramarines are the only ones I like and think are cool. The 40k lore made them into perfect and tasteless apple polishers.

what 40k lore is that?

**hungryugolino**

Play a real faction if you aren't really, really into the paint job or rules.

Lorewise, Ultramarines are a dumpster fire- far worse than just annoying and liking their 30k lore is a sign of poor taste.

**agurus1**

Disagree, their books like “Know No Fear” by Dan Abnett and the “Mark of Calth” short story compilation really bring character to the legion that sets them apart from their counterparts in 40k. Honestly if I went Loyalist Ultras would be very tempting to do.

**hungryugolino**

KNF is basically an prettied-up action movie script complete with "Heroic" plot armour and anything actually interesting about the plot glossed over and mark of calth is a pointless set of shaggy dog stories where it doesn't matter what happens to any of the characters.

Either way, playing Ultramarines is asking to be judged for playing the lowest common denominator, overly marketed faction that gets massive amounts of author and corporate favoritism- and dubious rules to boot. If you're okay with that, you do you.

**Sgt_Smudge**

hungryugolino wrote:
Play a real faction if you aren't really, really into the paint job or rules.

Lorewise, Ultramarines are a dumpster fire- far worse than just annoying and liking their 30k lore is a sign of poor taste.

I beg to differ, but honestly, I doubt anything anyone says will stop your hatred of the smurfs.

**Disciple of Fate**

Wow, this intense Ultramarines hatred is really 2008!

**locarno24**

Most of the 'annoying' ultramarines are either:

~ "Spiritual Liege" types who are the best ever [captain/scout/chapter master/whatever] at everything which we are told every marine wants to be and who come across as faintly smug about it. Sicarius was the most egregious example of this.

~"The codex does not support this action" types who have a copy of the codex Astartes shoved where the sun don't shine and never display any empathy or innovation, such as Leandros.

Horus Heresy ultramarines are pre-the-codex existing and gulliman is just one primarch, not lord-commander-of-everything. As a result they're pretty open-minded and rather good characters.

**agurus1**

Someone’s been bit by the Ultras a bit too much lol. Seriously like most people have been saying in 30k they aren’t bad fluffwise, find a book or two that they are in a read for yourself. Also their rules play to probably one of the most awesome ways to play in 30k, tons of marines!

**BrianDavion**

hungryugolino wrote:
KNF is basically an prettied-up action movie script complete with "Heroic" plot armour .

... as opposed to EVERY OTHER space Marine novel?

In fact I'd argue one of the most intreasting HH novels was Unremembered Empire simply because it was one of the few space marine centric books I've read that didn't focus on bolter porn. if you're going to hate a faction irrationally, just be honest eneugh to admit it

**Sgt_Smudge**

locarno24 wrote:
Sicarius was the most egregious example of this.

I'd agree on Sicarius purely on how he's portrayed in the Codex, but in the books where he features (Damnos and the Ventris novels), he's treated a lot less like a hero, and his smugness is given depth and actually treated like negative traits on his character.

He's absolutely treated like a "spiritual liege" in the codex, but when viewed from the perspective of other characters in the setting, his flaws and ugly traits come to the fore, making him a more developed character than a majority of Space Marines.

**pm713**

I remember reading Sicarius' part in the Ventris books and being baffled that not only was he high ranking but nobody "didn't notice" an Ork about to chop his head off at some point.

**BrianDavion**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
Sicarius was the most egregious example of this.
I'd agree on Sicarius purely on how he's portrayed in the Codex, but in the books where he features (Damnos and the Ventris novels), he's treated a lot less like a hero, and his smugness is given depth and actually treated like negative traits on his character.

He's absolutely treated like a "spiritual liege" in the codex, but when viewed from the perspective of other characters in the setting, his flaws and ugly traits come to the fore, making him a more developed character than a majority of Space Marines.

and in fairness Sicarius is a pretty typical thing in a lot of codices the "captain whose the awesome heir apparent to the chapter"

Ragnar Blackmane's descriptor reads almost exactly the same "this captain is super! he's so exceptional and rose to leadership so fast! he's ana amazing commander, and an amazing duelist and everyone expects he'll be the next chapter master" not saying it's not bad but that it seems to be common eneugh. Also if you dislike the Ultramarines purely for that character he's currently not around anymore, even in the current timeline he's "missing likely dead"

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
Sicarius was the most egregious example of this.
I'd agree on Sicarius purely on how he's portrayed in the Codex, but in the books where he features (Damnos and the Ventris novels), he's treated a lot less like a hero, and his smugness is given depth and actually treated like negative traits on his character.

He's absolutely treated like a "spiritual liege" in the codex, but when viewed from the perspective of other characters in the setting, his flaws and ugly traits come to the fore, making him a more developed character than a majority of Space Marines.

and in fairness Sicarius is a pretty typical thing in a lot of codices the "captain whose the awesome heir apparent to the chapter"

Ragnar Blackmane's descriptor reads almost exactly the same "this captain is super! he's so exceptional and rose to leadership so fast! he's ana amazing commander, and an amazing duelist and everyone expects he'll be the next chapter master" not saying it's not bad but that it seems to be common eneugh. Also if you dislike the Ultramarines purely for that character he's currently not around anymore, even in the current timeline he's "missing likely dead"

The difference is that Ragnar's stated to be unsuitable for the job at the moment. (At least in M41). While Sicarius just looks like a total d bag who is for some reason the next in line to Chapter Mastery rather than the standard 1st Captain being next up.

**Sgt_Smudge**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
Sicarius was the most egregious example of this.
I'd agree on Sicarius purely on how he's portrayed in the Codex, but in the books where he features (Damnos and the Ventris novels), he's treated a lot less like a hero, and his smugness is given depth and actually treated like negative traits on his character.

He's absolutely treated like a "spiritual liege" in the codex, but when viewed from the perspective of other characters in the setting, his flaws and ugly traits come to the fore, making him a more developed character than a majority of Space Marines.

and in fairness Sicarius is a pretty typical thing in a lot of codices the "captain whose the awesome heir apparent to the chapter"

Ragnar Blackmane's descriptor reads almost exactly the same "this captain is super! he's so exceptional and rose to leadership so fast! he's ana amazing commander, and an amazing duelist and everyone expects he'll be the next chapter master" not saying it's not bad but that it seems to be common eneugh. Also if you dislike the Ultramarines purely for that character he's currently not around anymore, even in the current timeline he's "missing likely dead"

The difference is that Ragnar's stated to be unsuitable for the job at the moment. (At least in M41). While Sicarius just looks like a total d bag who is for some reason the next in line to Chapter Mastery rather than the standard 1st Captain being next up.

They do say why a lot of rumours support it - because Sicarius is damn good at what he does.

He is, like it or not, a very good fighter, commander and tactician, with a strong slew of victories to his name. Is he flawless? Heck no. Is he good enough to possibly take over as Chapter Master? Yes - whether Calgar would choose him over his "traditional" second in command is unknown, but that won't need to be answered any more.

Guilliman himself seemed to take a liking to Sicarius, making him the head of his Victrix Guard instead of Agemman (although that may have been because Agemman was a Tetrarch at this point).

**pm713**

Now it might just be me being ignorant of UM lore but I don't remember anything that shows Sicarius as being so good he'd be as hyped as he is. I can only recall details on two battles one of which made him look pretty dumb as his victory was based on a huge gamble which had more chance of losing the battle than winning it.

Someone needs to check Guilliman for head injuries if he actually likes sicarius at a personal level.

**Sgt_Smudge**

pm713 wrote:
Now it might just be me being ignorant of UM lore but I don't remember anything that shows Sicarius as being so good he'd be as hyped as he is. I can only recall details on two battles one of which made him look pretty dumb as his victory was based on a huge gamble which had more chance of losing the battle than winning it.

Again, it's a classic example of "tell, not shown". The Codex tells us Sicarius is this amazing commander, with all these titles and honours and stuff, and to be fair, in some of the novels he's in (Assault on Black Reach) he does pull his weight. However, you'd be absolutely right in thinking "why is he so good".

Unfortunately, this applied to literally every special character, let alone every Space Marine.
Ragnar Blackmane suffers from this. Asmodai, Tycho, and other characters are all the same - they're these "legendary heroes" but we don't really know why beyond "they are".

Someone needs to check Guilliman for head injuries if he actually likes sicarius at a personal level.

Apparently he reminds him of Thiel - which isn't too much of a stretch, considering Thiel and Sicarius were both 2nd Company captains of the Ultramarines Chapter.

**pm713**

That is very common in 40k. Some get better treatment than others though. Like Asmodai and Ragnar suffer from it less by virtue of the fact that they're in novels.

Those are some thick nostalgia goggles.

**BrianDavion**

yeah, I mean if the Ultramarines novels had been about the rise of a young UM named Cato Sicurious we might have very differant views on him. but in so far as what codex space wolves actually says about Ragnar?

Ragnar Blackmane is exceptional in every sense of the word. The youngest ever battlebrother
to have been promoted to Wolf Lord, Ragnar exudes confidence, skill and
athletic ability from every fibre of his whipcord-fast body. It is said that to witness one
of his berserk rages is to watch the murderous fury of the hurricane come to life.
Ragnar’s is a rage matched equally by skill, and even in his furious assaults upon his
foes every blade cut or hack displays a brutal precision unequalled by any other warrior.
Indeed, Ragnar’s ferocity in battle is as infectious as it is legendary, his primal fury
inspiring his packmates to fight all the harder in his presence. Many believe that Ragnar
will eventually succeed Logan Grimnar as Great Wolf, but many Wolf Priests hold that
he must first master his anger; though the Blackmane’s temper and capacity for
unrestrained fury gives him great power and strength, it makes him impetuous, and
may one day prove his downfall. Only time will tell the eventual fate of the renowned
Young King.

thats it word for word from the space wolves 7th edition codex.

Cato Sicarius is amongst the greatest heroes of the
Ultramarines. His titles are many- Captain of the 2nd
Company, Master of the Watch, Knight Champion of
Macragge, Grand Duke of Talassar and High Suzerain of
Ulu·amar. Each reflects but a fraction of a lifetime's diligent
and exceptional senrice, not only to the Ultrarnarines
Chapter, but to tl1e realm of Ultramar itself.
Born into one ofTalassar's ascendant houses, the young
Sicarius began martial schooling as soon as he was old
enough to grasp a sword - a LUtelage only reinforced by
his later induction into tl1e Ultramarines. Sicarius earned
commendation after commendation and swiftly rose
through the ranks. In tl1e following decades, he served witl1
distinction as both Sergeant and Company Champion before
taking command of the Ultramarines 2nd Company.
Sicarius rose to the challenge of leading tl1e 2nd Company
as he had to every other that had been set in his path. All
Space Marines use lightning assaults, but Sicarius re£ined tl1e
strategy to near-perfection, often committing his forces to
battle with only the briefest appraisal of the situation. As his
tally of victories grows, Sicarius' name has become a byword
for victory, a legend forged in the bloody maelsu·om of battle
that is known far beyond the borders of Ultra mar. At the
close of the 41st Millennium, Sicarius is widely believed to
be the heir apparent to Marneus Calgar himself- something
that cannot sit well witl1 Agemman, Captain of the lst
Company and Regent of Ultramar

and that is cato sicurious. in the 6th edition space marine codex (thr 8th edition one makes referance to him often being arrogant, mentions he's lost in the warp and thus doesn't mention the presumed heir bit)

really they're almost exactly the same "these guys are so great! they're awesome and might be the next chapter master. not everyone thinks they are perfect and person X has a less then perfect opinion of them"

not exactly the same but it's very clear to me they are essentiall cast from the same mold.

**Bi'ios**

What’re they supposed to say? “Captain Hero of the 3rd company is a gakky tactician and leader, who’s destined to die an unknown death and he succeeded by an equally unqualified individual. But at least he’s personable”