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Would taking 3 Elysian Heavy Weapons Teams and 3 Astra Militarum Cadian heavy weapons teams violate the Rule of 3?

Some notes to consider

They have different rules
They have different points costs
The Elysians do not have the <Regiment> keyword
They have different wargear options

Other than similar names I feel like they can both be used simultaneously

Do they have different Data sheets?

If so then, yes according to the FAQ.

Same if they are listed as "Troops" for battlefield role.

Riggs wrote:
Would taking 3 Elysian Heavy Weapons Teams and 3 Astra Militarum Cadian heavy weapons teams violate the Rule of 3?

Some notes to consider

They have different rules
They have different points costs
The Elysians do not have the <Regiment> keyword
They have different wargear options

Other than similar names I feel like they can both be used simultaneously

The only thing that matters is if they have different Datasheets. They could be word for word identical, other than the name of the datasheet, and they would be different datasheets.

However, like you said, they aren't the same unit, so you can have 3 Codex HWS and 3 Elysian HWS.

I would also like to point out the Rule of 3 is a suggested rule for Organised Play only. You need to ask the TO of whatever tournament you're going to because the TO has final say. He or she might decide to rule that you can't do this, you can't use Pink Models or ban Ultramarines. It's entirely up to them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Riggs wrote:
Would taking 3 Elysian Heavy Weapons Teams and 3 Astra Militarum Cadian heavy weapons teams violate the Rule of 3?

Some notes to consider

They have different rules
They have different points costs
The Elysians do not have the <Regiment> keyword
They have different wargear options

Other than similar names I feel like they can both be used simultaneously

The only thing that matters is if they have different Datasheets. They could be word for word identical, other than the name of the datasheet, and they would be different datasheets.

However, like you said, they aren't the same unit, so you can have 3 Codex HWS and 3 Elysian HWS.

I would also like to point out the Rule of 3 is a suggested rule for Organised Play only. You need to ask the TO of whatever tournament you're going to because the TO has final say. He or she might decide to rule that you can't do this, you can't use Pink Models or ban Ultramarines. It's entirely up to them.

No, he can't. Elysian heavy weapon team is still a AM Hwt, it is just a very special AM regiment. Same aplies to DKoK btw.
They have the regiment keyword but automatically change it to elysians btw.

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, he can't. Elysian heavy weapon team is still a AM Hwt, it is just a very special AM regiment. Same aplies to DKoK btw.
They have the regiment keyword but automatically change it to elysians btw.

Quite literally the opposite of true. Sorry, but you're categorically and provably wrong. That's like saying a Dreadnought is the same as a Venerable Dreadnought.

Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

They have a different Datasheet name and different model names. They are different units. You not liking it doesn't make it any less true.

Page 78 of the FW index vs Page 67 of the FW Index.

Different Names, Different Rules, Different Options.

You seem to think that the only difference is what <REGIMENT> you pick, this is not the case.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

What you're missing (I think) is that if the datasheet name itself is different, the faction and unit keywords are irrelevant for the purposes of Ro3. If it is called "Elysian Heavy Weapon Squad", it is a different datasheet from "Heavy Weapons Squad" in Codex: Astra Militarum.

For what it's worth, I don't own IA Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum, so I can't say what the datasheet is called, but that's the only determining factor for Ro3.

 Larks wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

What you're missing (I think) is that if the datasheet name itself is different, the faction and unit keywords are irrelevant for the purposes of Ro3. If it is called "Elysian Heavy Weapon Squad", it is a different datasheet from "Heavy Weapons Squad" in Codex: Astra Militarum.

For what it's worth, I don't own IA Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum, so I can't say what the datasheet is called, but that's the only determining factor for Ro3.

This is very Iffy to say the least because you can literally compare one to one the profile of the Elysians to the regular AM heavy weapons team.
The only difference is that they get "Aerial Drop" which the HWT's get because they are Elysians which replaces the <Regiment>
In the end what might saves you, and that is actually pretty counter intuitive, is that Elysians are only 5 its per HWT and that aerial drop is not in the Regiment rules integrated, because FW did not use them.
Therefore I stand corrected, still it would be a kind of "That Guy" move to show up with Elysians and regular AM HWT's.

Btw: RIP Elysians

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Larks wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

What you're missing (I think) is that if the datasheet name itself is different, the faction and unit keywords are irrelevant for the purposes of Ro3. If it is called "Elysian Heavy Weapon Squad", it is a different datasheet from "Heavy Weapons Squad" in Codex: Astra Militarum.

For what it's worth, I don't own IA Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum, so I can't say what the datasheet is called, but that's the only determining factor for Ro3.

This is very Iffy to say the least because you can literally compare one to one the profile of the Elysians to the regular AM heavy weapons team.
The only difference is that they get "Aerial Drop" which the HWT's get because they are Elysians which replaces the <Regiment>
In the end what might saves you, and that is actually pretty counter intuitive, is that Elysians are only 5 its per HWT and that aerial drop is not in the Regiment rules integrated, because FW did not use them.
Therefore I stand corrected, still it would be a kind of "That Guy" move to show up with Elysians and regular AM HWT's.

Btw: RIP Elysians

Now you can see why some people take issue with Ro3,

Stats, options, models even are irrelevant. Datasheet name is all that matters.

 Larks wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Larks wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

What you're missing (I think) is that if the datasheet name itself is different, the faction and unit keywords are irrelevant for the purposes of Ro3. If it is called "Elysian Heavy Weapon Squad", it is a different datasheet from "Heavy Weapons Squad" in Codex: Astra Militarum.

For what it's worth, I don't own IA Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum, so I can't say what the datasheet is called, but that's the only determining factor for Ro3.

This is very Iffy to say the least because you can literally compare one to one the profile of the Elysians to the regular AM heavy weapons team.
The only difference is that they get "Aerial Drop" which the HWT's get because they are Elysians which replaces the <Regiment>
In the end what might saves you, and that is actually pretty counter intuitive, is that Elysians are only 5 its per HWT and that aerial drop is not in the Regiment rules integrated, because FW did not use them.
Therefore I stand corrected, still it would be a kind of "That Guy" move to show up with Elysians and regular AM HWT's.

Btw: RIP Elysians

Now you can see why some people take issue with Ro3,

Stats, options, models even are irrelevant. Datasheet name is all that matters.

Actually, I'd argue the name should not matter, the difference is indeed within the data sheet, and that is why I would let it slide, mainly because the price is different, compared to the codex AM, and the aerial drop rule is not integrated into the regiment keyword. That being said I can understand why people take issues with the "rule of 3" mainly because it is an arbitrary line in the sand.
Armies that have generally speaking cheaper Elites but rely heavily upon them are hit harder by it, then armies that have more expensive elites, where the points already limit the ammount of spam.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Larks wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consider they are the same as Dkok which literally say that regiment changes into the specific one making elysian Hwt just hwt's

What you're missing (I think) is that if the datasheet name itself is different, the faction and unit keywords are irrelevant for the purposes of Ro3. If it is called "Elysian Heavy Weapon Squad", it is a different datasheet from "Heavy Weapons Squad" in Codex: Astra Militarum.

For what it's worth, I don't own IA Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum, so I can't say what the datasheet is called, but that's the only determining factor for Ro3.

This is very Iffy to say the least because you can literally compare one to one the profile of the Elysians to the regular AM heavy weapons team.
The only difference is that they get "Aerial Drop" which the HWT's get because they are Elysians which replaces the <Regiment>
In the end what might saves you, and that is actually pretty counter intuitive, is that Elysians are only 5 its per HWT and that aerial drop is not in the Regiment rules integrated, because FW did not use them.
Therefore I stand corrected, still it would be a kind of "That Guy" move to show up with Elysians and regular AM HWT's.

Btw: RIP Elysians

It’s a different Datasheet in a different book. How could anyone claim it’s the same Datasheet?

Elysian Heavy Weapons Team =/= Heavy Weapons Team

Different names, and the Elysian heavy weapons team has aerial drop.

If the rules were structured differently and Elysians had regimental doctrines and you were told to use the datasheet for heavy weapons team found on p.xy of the AM codex then they would be the same data sheet.

as the rules are written right now, they are different.

I think the primary difference is they lack the Regiment keyword. There are strategems not available to them that other AM units could use

Not Online!!! wrote:
This is very Iffy to say the least because you can literally compare one to one the profile of the Elysians to the regular AM heavy weapons team.
The only difference is that they get "Aerial Drop" which the HWT's get because they are Elysians which replaces the <Regiment>
In the end what might saves you, and that is actually pretty counter intuitive, is that Elysians are only 5 its per HWT and that aerial drop is not in the Regiment rules integrated, because FW did not use them.
Therefore I stand corrected, still it would be a kind of "That Guy" move to show up with Elysians and regular AM HWT's.

Btw: RIP Elysians

It's irrelevant what the stats are. They are different datasheets. You can take 3 of both. Are you claiming you can't field 3 leman russ and 3 leman russ conquerrors? 3 leman russ and 3 leman russ commander?

Different datasheet and number of others is irrelevant.

And no he would not be "that guy"

Best of all: Basically all of the old marines are the same. Devastators are just Tacticals with more Heavy Weapons and an extra rule or two. Assault Marines are just Tacticals with a different standard loadout. Sternguard veterans are tacticals with better guns.
So if you argue that e.g. an Elysian HWT is the same as an AM HWT, you can argue all of the above to be the same, too.

All that currently matters is the name of the datasheet.

For example, you can currently run a list of 9 Daemon Princes, by running 3 Daemon Princes of Tzeetch, 3 Daemon Princes of Nurgle and 3 Daemon Princes. (Thousand Sons, Death Guard and CSM codices respectively)

Whether or not GW should change this is a different discussion.