Switch Theme:

40kD10 - Edge of Revitalization ver.0.1.10  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Hi all,

Welcome to the ruleset of 40kD10: Edge of Revitalization. This is an unofficial ruleset to be used with your Warhammer 40k models.


How playable is version 0.1.10?
Spoiler:
The main rules are basically done and can be used in a normal game. The codices of 0.1.10 have most of the Troops choices and several other units done including their point cost. Special rules, weapons, a few detachments and all Tactical Objectives are done, so you could play a standard game with these rules, though you cannot be sure if two armies are equal/balanced.



What is the goal of this ruleset?
Spoiler:
First of all I want this to feel like a 40k ruleset and not just a completely new ruleset. Through conversations and discussions about the Warhammer 40k rules, I’ve learned that many opinions were the same through the community – basically many of us wanted a more tactical game and rules which reflected the background better.
From this I gathered that randomness should be reduced and new mechanics should be added to make the game more challenging tactical-wise. The challenge lies in adding depth and new mechanics without making the game too complex, and I've gone back and forth on this with several of the mechanics, especially concerning the terrain of the battlefield.
Additionally one of the goals of this ruleset is to have to rules reflect the background of the factions and models more than have been done in any of the official editions.



Is this ruleset simple or complex?
Spoiler:
While the complexity probably can be rated as higher than the 7th and 8th edition ruleset and new mechanics are added, I’ve constantly reminded myself of the fact that most do not miss the days of 2nd edition - while developing rules one can easily come up with rules which are needlessly overcomplicated which was one of the most important points we wanted to get rid of in the first place.
Some mechanics in 40kD10 - Edge of Revitalization will require you to use your math skills slightly more than you’re used to in a normal Warhammer 40k game, but I stand by that such mechanics are needed to reflect proper diversity.



What's new and different compared to 7th and 8th edition of the Warhammer 40k rules?
Spoiler:
Here are some key-sentences:
D10 instead of D6
• One phase is taken by both players before arriving to the next
• The psychic phase is out
Ap system is out – armour save modifiers (and armour save modifier-modifiers) are in
• “Degree of Pinning” is based on shooting capabilities, which affects units in all the phases, is added to add more tactical depth
• “Command points” give you pre-game options to choose your own tactical objectives, deploy differently and more
• “Degree of Fear” is based not only on how intimidating a model is, but also on how many models a unit consists of and affects units in the assault phase as well as the shooting phase
• More links within a codex to give a better feeling of a cohesive force working together



Critique
Spoiler:
Every aspect of every edition of 40kD10 - Edge of Revitalization has been thought through and changed several times so needless to say, a lot of time has been put into this project.
That is not to say, that it cannot be improved any more or better worded so I welcome your critique but only critique which has been thought through – I don’t need to hear your critique if you haven’t tried to look at the subject from several perspectives or to look at the subject in context of the big picture.
Remember, I’ll gladly answer any questions you may have to explain the rules.



Disqlaimer
Spoiler:
40kD10 - Edge of Revitalization is the work of a Warhammer 40k fan and is only meant as an alternative ruleset for people to enjoy for free. The rules and documents of 40kD10 - Edge of Revitalization and the associated codexes are unofficial and are in no way meant to harm Games Workshop or earn money.
40k, Adeptus Astartes, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Cadian, Catachan, Chaos, the Chaos device, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, Cityfight, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Dawn of War, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Eye of Terror, Fire Warrior, the Fire Warrior logo, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, GW, GWI, the GWI logo, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khorne, the Khorne logo, Kroot, Lord of Change, Necron, Nurgle, the Nurgle logo, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Slaanesh, the Slaanesh logo, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, the Tzeentch logo, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k Device, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations, units, illustrations and images from the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2007, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. Used without permission. No challenge to their status intended. All Rights Reserved to their respective owners.



Codices
Spoiler:

Rules for models and units, including their point cost may not have been worked out yet, and I haven't made it clear which units are done and which aren't.

Right now the most worked out codices are codex: Blood Angels and codex: T'au Empire with Black Templars close behind. For neither of these have the points been worked out for all units, mostly Troops choices codices.

If you have a sincere interest in this ruleset and you want to try it out with a certain codex, or want the point cost or rules for a certaint model finished, then please say so, and I'll try to make it a priority.


Extra
Spoiler:
If you are interested I will make a spoiler containing the chances of certain units killing other units in this edition compared to 7th edition.


This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/08/15 08:01:34


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






There are a few terrible ideas in this.

First) Alternating phases is a terrible idea. It severely cripples mid to short range shooting and melee against a long range army. Especially when the longer range army moves second.

Example, I move my hormagaunts forward on the board to get them into a position to charge. The Tau player moves backwards so that they are 12" away.

I now have the worst possible chance to successfully charge while the Tau player can shoot me in his shooting phase and overwatch when I declare my charge. My unit will be made worthless before it ever makes contact. It doesn't matter if you have changed the mechanics for charging and/or overwatch. The issue is that an assault or shorter range unit has to play it's hand and reveal what it is trying to do before the enemy moves and negates your plans before you ever get to act. Longer range shooting is vastly more powerful and dominant in a Alternating Phases system.

Second) Why the hell would anyone ever choose to turn 1d5 warp charges into a d10 instead of 2d5?

2d5 has a potential range of 2-10 and 1d10 has a potential range of 1-10. 2d5 will most often generate 6 charges (Of all the potential results on 2d5 the most common end result is 6 in the same way that 2d6 has the highest probability of generating a result of 7) 1d10 has an equal chance of generating 1 and 10 and any other possible number.

The option to make a d5 into a d10 is a non option, because it is categorically worse and so will never be done.

3rd) Across the board you have made the game significantly more complex while introducing a number of all new problems that make the game inherently more unbalanced. Many of the options add complexity without benefit or the illusion of choice where there are clearly superior options.



End result, this is a worse game than GWs already pretty bad game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 09:09:09



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




That's very kind, but (and this goes for everybody) I really don't need pads on the shoulder, high fives, thumbs up and whatever you young people do - I simply do not have time for it. If you like these rules, great! Use them as much as you like - if you have ideas or think you could contribute constructively, them I'm all noses!


Play responsibly.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I was not saying any of that to be offensive. It's constructive criticism. The turn structure needs to be redone. You need to go over your options in each mechanic with a fine tooth comb and trim the fat.

Complexity in the game should arise from interactions in the mechanics having interesting results instead of a bloat of mechanics.

Right now this looks primarily like a bloat of mechanics.


Game play is often described as a series of interesting choices. An interesting choice has consequences. In tetris you decide how you rotate the piece and where you place it. Do you destroy one line now or try to build for destroying 4 at once? The speed of the game increases with each line destroyed. Can you maintain control after that jump up? The players every action impacts further actions and each action can be equally viable given circumstance.

If anything in your rule book presents the player with 2 options and 1 is clearly sub optimal then it's not interesting and it's not really game play. It's just worthless mechanics that muddy the waters and fatten the rules system.

Likewise, the turn structure doesn't make your positioning or going first or second an interesting choice. As a Tau player I will always do everything in my power to go second. And my positioning will be obvious based on my enemies revealed plans when they complete their entire armies moves. My targets for my shooting will primarily be about crippling the few things that still pose any kind of a threat after my movement took the wind out of their sails.

The game becomes much less dynamic. The tactics much more shallow. The game play significantly less interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 10:20:21



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




That's slightly better but to your information, if I sense that the conversation doesn't lead anywhere, I'll drop out of the correspondence without any further posts.

1. This problem has been addressed/solved - read the Game turn section again (or rather for the first time, I guess).

2. There will be a maximum of dice, which may be used on a single psychic power, that's why a D10 can be better than 2D5.

3. I cannot discuss something unspecific - remember this thread is not for me defending my project - If you don't like this, you shouldn't be wasting your time in this thread. I will not waste my time on posts which clearly reflect that the poster haven't spend proper time and energy to read the rules.

4. This is version 0.1.9 - there's plenty of room for improvement though the problems you have stated so far are not actual problems.

5. This will be my last post responding you Lance if I feel you do not put effort into these rules, and so you will be ignored/blocked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 13:01:43


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Haha. Ok. Good luck with your game.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Chaospling wrote:
That's slightly better but to your information, if I sense that the conversation doesn't lead anywhere, I'll drop out of the correspondence without any further posts.

1. This problem has been addressed/solved - read the Game turn section again (or rather for the first time, I guess).

2. There will be a maximum of dice, which may be used on a single psychic power, that's why a D10 can be better than 2D5.

3. I cannot discuss something unspecific - remember this thread is not for me defending my project - If you don't like this, you shouldn't be wasting your time in this thread. I will not waste my time on posts which clearly reflect that the poster haven't spend proper time and energy to read the rules.

4. This is version 0.1.9 - there's plenty of room for improvement though the problems you have stated so far are not actual problems.

5. This will be my last post responding you Lance if I feel you do not put effort into these rules, and so you will be ignored/blocked.

>Says the thread is not defending their project
>Says if you don't like it to leave, and then says the poster hadn't bothered to read the rules in depth
>Says they will block said poster

I hadn't bothered to read the documents yet (as I'm always wary of downloads), but this is definitely you not being able to take an ounce of criticism, as super blunt as Lance was.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Criticism which could have been answered by the reader himself, if the rules were actually read... That's right, not an ounce.

And please respect this thread for what it is. If you find the rules somehow interesting and you want to help improve them, that's fine. Right now you only derail it without adding anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 21:34:13


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Its always fun to see people assume it wasn't read and thus the criticism is invalid instead of hearing what they say.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Chaospling wrote:
Criticism which could have been answered by the reader himself, if the rules were actually read... That's right, not an ounce.

And please respect this thread for what it is. If you find the rules somehow interesting and you want to help improve them, that's fine. Right now you only derail it without adding anything.

He made a detailed post. I can't see how you can actually accuse him of not reading it unless you were trying to be defensive in the first place.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




1. The criticism was not constructive at all. Pointing out "problems" without adding or offering a solution is not constructive. It was just a general opinion of a turn sequence camouflaged as oh so helpful criticism.

2. Apparently you, Slayer-Fan, do not even read my posts: a specific"problem" mentioned in his "detailed" post has already been addressed. His example of a game turn cannot even exist through my rules. Ergo, he didn't bother to read the rules.

3. These rules really has potential, you are really missing out of an opportunity, not reading them.

4. You are both derailing this thread and you know it, maybe you are jealous of not having the capability to write an entire rulreset yourselves, but no matter what, please do not derail any further.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 05:43:51


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight





Sticksville, Texas

Holy cow, your attitude makes me not care about how good your game is, or isn't.

1. The criticism was in fact constructive, but blunt. He showed a flaw in your rules, and an example. It may not be possible for him to offer an alternative without knowing WHY you made that turn structure decision in the first place, or what your end goal is. You didn't state that there had been a design change, as to what may have worked to solve the issue he saw, until well after you became defensive and insulting.

Just going to go ahead and skip to point 4, what is with your attitude?! What makes me want to play a game where any input I have is likely to be met with sarcasm and insults? How is that going to work to grow the community of your fan made ruleset?
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





What is up with the whole surpressive fire and fear rule?
As a matter of fact those severly profit horde armies via their attribut of having way more firepower on the field, that is something that you seriously need to look into or get rid off.
If it stays you will need to seriously have to take a look at how you write the following Codexes: IG, Daemons, Orks.
Hamper them to much and they will become useless, hamper them not enough and your meta will be dominated by a clusterfeth of a slogfest.

Also you allowing to seize Initiative is a problem in regards of "double-turns" as inbetween game turns, tere's then the possibility that a unit can attack twice in a row, leading to an potentially extremly swinngy turnstructur, favoring high rolling more so then actual tactics in such a case.
i'd personally recommend to get rid of said structure and instead would allow players to split their army into groups which they use alternately, and to insure that players can't just target the other ones group to disrupt their turns i'd allow to change the group on the fly per each turn.
granted that is still more swingy then it should be.

Also pointing out a problem whilest not offering a solution is still constructive criticism.
Mindlessly hating on something is not constructive criticism.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/06 07:52:40


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




That's because all of your posts clearly show no sincere interest and so you are met with your own tone.

1. Start and end of first post: "There are a few terrible ideas in this." and "End result, this is a worse game than GWs already pretty bad game." - yeah that's how you make people listen.
One could acknowledge, that this is work in progress but no: this is just a really bad game, end of story.

2. What design change!?!?!? The flaw was never there!

3. You are not doing me a favour playing this game. I've put time and effort into this and I'm sharing it with fellow gamers for your convenience. Of course it's fun to hear if people actually use these rules, but I do not need it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
What is up with the whole surpressive fire and fear rule?
As a matter of fact those severly profit horde armies via their attribut of having way more firepower on the field, that is something that you seriously need to look into or get rid off.
If it stays you will need to seriously have to take a look at how you write the following Codexes: IG, Daemons, Orks.
Hamper them to much and they will become useless, hamper them not enough and your meta will be dominated by a clusterfeth of a slogfest.

Thank you very much - finally something. Though, you have to remember that not only the amount of shots counts, also the value of the Defensive Fear characteristic of the target unit.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also you allowing to seize Initiative is a problem in regards of "double-turns" as inbetween game turns, tere's then the possibility that a unit can attack twice in a row, leading to an potentially extremly swinngy turnstructur, favoring high rolling more so then actual tactics in such a case.
i'd personally recommend to get rid of said structure and instead would allow players to split their army into groups which they use alternately, and to insure that players can't just target the other ones group to disrupt their turns i'd allow to change the group on the fly per each turn.
granted that is still more swingy then it should be.

I'm not sure, I understand you correctly. Phases may be seized, not entire turns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 08:45:57


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Chaospling wrote:
That's because all of your posts clearly show no sincere interest and so you are met with your own tone.

1. Start and end of first post: "There are a few terrible ideas in this." and "End result, this is a worse game than GWs already pretty bad game." - yeah that's how you make people listen.
One could acknowledge, that this is work in progress but no: this is just a really bad game, end of story.

2. What design change!?!?!? The flaw was never there!

3. You are not doing me a favour playing this game. I've put time and effort into this and I'm sharing it with fellow gamers for your convenience. Of course it's fun to hear if people actually use these rules, but I do not need it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
What is up with the whole surpressive fire and fear rule?
As a matter of fact those severly profit horde armies via their attribut of having way more firepower on the field, that is something that you seriously need to look into or get rid off.
If it stays you will need to seriously have to take a look at how you write the following Codexes: IG, Daemons, Orks.
Hamper them to much and they will become useless, hamper them not enough and your meta will be dominated by a clusterfeth of a slogfest.

Thank you very much - finally something. Though, you have to remember that not only the amount of shots counts, also the value of the Defensive Fear characteristic of the target unit.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also you allowing to seize Initiative is a problem in regards of "double-turns" as inbetween game turns, tere's then the possibility that a unit can attack twice in a row, leading to an potentially extremly swinngy turnstructur, favoring high rolling more so then actual tactics in such a case.
i'd personally recommend to get rid of said structure and instead would allow players to split their army into groups which they use alternately, and to insure that players can't just target the other ones group to disrupt their turns i'd allow to change the group on the fly per each turn.
granted that is still more swingy then it should be.

I'm not sure, I understand you correctly. Phases may be seized, not entire turns.



I'll give you a little tip: More stats lead to more balance required, more balnce required leaves more room for screwing up. That is why i warned you about those rules.
Imagine this turn 1 player1 shot last, now is turn 2 player 1 sizes initiative, shoots again with it's unit.
Now said scenario is not a problem when you shoot with a guardsmen squad. IT WILL BE A PROBLEM when my Tau Commander just get's double the time to take down a unit without a possible reaction of said unit.
Each time this happens, instead of the more balanced approach you were going for you have the problems of denying that approach and turning it into the contrary effect.
I hope that makes sense.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Agreed, I thought of posting a "Thought of the Month" and bringing a subject from this ruleset forth to discuss and one could be the profile and values of a model. As I've said, I spend time on this, so the values of the profiles are chosen based on a lot of calculations.

Your example doesn't even need the Initiative to be seized, that's what would happen normally: one turn you shoot first, the next you shoot second. Though there is a lot more to a turn sequence than that: how many detachments in an army, which phases do the players want to Seize and so on.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Chaospling wrote:
Agreed, I thought of posting a "Thought of the Month" and bringing a subject from this ruleset forth to discuss and one could be the profile and values of a model. As I've said, I spend time on this, so the values of the profiles are chosen based on a lot of calculations.

Your example doesn't even need the Initiative to be seized, that's what would happen normally: one turn you shoot first, the next you shoot second. Though there is a lot more to a turn sequence than that: how many detachments in an army, which phases do the players want to Seize and so on.


Indeed, but the fact that you could highroll to achieve such double shooting phases is a problem. It less tactical and more luck driven. Also additionally such double phases can cause serious problems, that is something that is problematic to say the least.
I like that you tackled the i go then you go but the double phase will just shift that problem away from high DPT armies to high DPT modells. Damage per turn.
I am also unsure if not action options like infinity would be a better approach in certain circumstances to lower this problem, frankly i can just offer you a additional viewpoint.
D10 is anyways a better system for 40k, it would allow to represent factions and strenght /weaknesses way better.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Regarding the double-phases:
1. It must count for something that the Movement phase comes between the Shooting phases.

2. I would actually be more concerned for the outcome where one player is lucky and the other one is unlucky through the entire game: the lucky player fire first every single turn. The outcome you talk about seems balanced: A shoots once but first the first turn, from then on the players shoot twice before the other player shoots, given that no player Seizes Initiative of course.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Chaospling wrote:
Regarding the double-phases:
1. It must count for something that the Movement phase comes between the Shooting phases.

2. I would actually be more concerned for the outcome where one player is lucky and the other one is unlucky through the entire game: the lucky player fire first every single turn. The outcome you talk about seems balanced: A shoots once but first the first turn, from then on the players shoot twice before the other player shoots, given that no player Seizes Initiative of course.


On point one, now that would be a problem solver but there is this "pinning" problem, especcialy considering that pinning is cumulative, ergo units will just full stop and take the beating, really bad also potentially for assult armies, but that got mentioned allready.
in my opinion you now got 2 options,
A) remove the "double-turn" problematic, probably a massive rework of the turn structure required
B) remove pinning or only add pinning to certain types of weapons. (Heavy stubber, Heavy Bolter, Hades Autocannons, basically bullet based weaponry with more then 3 shot's per profile, also maybee remove the part about hinderance of movement.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaospling wrote:
Regarding the double-phases:
1. It must count for something that the Movement phase comes between the Shooting phases.

2. I would actually be more concerned for the outcome where one player is lucky and the other one is unlucky through the entire game: the lucky player fire first every single turn. The outcome you talk about seems balanced: A shoots once but first the first turn, from then on the players shoot twice before the other player shoots, given that no player Seizes Initiative of course.


On point one, now that would be a problem solver but there is this "pinning" problem, especcialy considering that pinning is cumulative, ergo units will just full stop and take the beating, really bad also potentially for assult armies, but that got mentioned allready.
in my opinion you now got 2 options,
A) remove the "double-turn" problematic, probably a massive rework of the turn structure required
B) remove pinning or only add pinning to certain types of weapons. (Heavy stubber, Heavy Bolter, Hades Autocannons, basically bullet based weaponry with more then 3 shot's per profile, also maybee remove the part about hinderance of movement.


Well it's only a problem if the damage and pinning is out of hand and I've made models roughly more durable. Furthermore pinning reduces the firepower so a game of 40kD10: Edge of Revitalization should feel very different from Warhammer 40k 8th edition, when it comes to how often you remove models from the table.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Have you ever played a game with Stun mechanics?
They are in most cases regarded as atleast unfun and at worst outright broken, this is what i fear for your pinning rule.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




No not yet, but T'au and Blood Angels were chosen as the first codices, because two guys with these armies are willing to test the rules, so I'll find out soon enough.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

So, I was gonna read this and see if it was any good. But then I saw how the author took critiques... And I'm less inspired to do so.

Not worth commenting on something when any response besides "this is perfect" is dismissed.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 JNAProductions wrote:
So, I was gonna read this and see if it was any good. But then I saw how the author took critiques... And I'm less inspired to do so.

Not worth commenting on something when any response besides "this is perfect" is dismissed.


And it hasnt even been play tested yet. Its all theoretical.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight





Sticksville, Texas

 Lance845 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So, I was gonna read this and see if it was any good. But then I saw how the author took critiques... And I'm less inspired to do so.

Not worth commenting on something when any response besides "this is perfect" is dismissed.


And it hasnt even been play tested yet. Its all theoretical.


Seems like they just want a pat on the back and to be praised more than they want to actually improve the game.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




 NH Gunsmith wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So, I was gonna read this and see if it was any good. But then I saw how the author took critiques... And I'm less inspired to do so.

Not worth commenting on something when any response besides "this is perfect" is dismissed.


And it hasnt even been play tested yet. Its all theoretical.


Seems like they just want a pat on the back and to be praised more than they want to actually improve the game.


********** Booting System ***********
...
...
*** Scanning posts for anything contructive ***
...
0 %
...
0% found

*** Scanning for users keeping this thread on the top of the 40K Proposed Rules section ***

OVERLOAD

*** Shutting down ***

Thank you guys


On a more constructive note, I'll bring you Thoughts of week 28:

The special rule Remote Controlled.

This rule was introduced to make the Space Marine forces more cohesive and is based on the camera on the top of sponson weapons.

By the way, I think that some kind of latin names would be more fitting than "Weapon Link" and "Remote Controlled".
[Thumb - Camera.PNG]
Camera

[Thumb - Remote Controlled.PNG]
Remote Controlled

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/07 09:16:43


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






There is actually a lot constructive in the posts you quoted if you would drop your ego enough to read it.

Your attitude is gak.

People with experience both building and playing games with mechanics similar to yours provide you feedback with what will happen and you tell them it's both not constructive and that the issues they bring up are not issues.

The thread may be sticking around... for now... but it's not because anyone is reading your rules or playing your game right now. It's because some few of us are trying to let you know whats wrong with both your game and your attitude.

You are willfully oblivious to all of it. Soon enough we will stop. What you will be left with is a game 2 people you know play test once or twice and a document with rules for a game that isn't fun. I hope all the effort making it was worth it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/07 09:42:26



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




 Lance845 wrote:
There is actually a lot constructive in the posts you quoted if you would drop your ego enough to read it.

Your attitude is gak.

People with experience both building and playing games with mechanics similar to yours provide you feedback with what will happen and you tell them it's both not constructive and that the issues they bring up are not issues.

The thread may be sticking around... for now... but it's not because anyone is reading your rules or playing your game right now. It's because some few of us are trying to let you know whats wrong with both your game and your attitude.

You are willfully oblivious to all of it. Soon enough we will stop. What you will be left with is a game 2 people you know play test once or twice and document with rules for a game that isn't fun. I hope all the effort making it was worth it.


I just don't stand by when people are calling my ideas terrible and bad the way you did. If you really REALLY are constructive and rational, then why don't you

1. Try again while being polite and see what happens?

or

2. If you think I'm an idiot or something like that, save your own precious time and spend it on something better?

In my opinion, you prove my point by not being constructive, when you keep posting in this thread not adding anything useful to the discussion. If you want, we could kiss and make up and forget it and start a fresh.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Chaospling wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
There is actually a lot constructive in the posts you quoted if you would drop your ego enough to read it.

Your attitude is gak.

People with experience both building and playing games with mechanics similar to yours provide you feedback with what will happen and you tell them it's both not constructive and that the issues they bring up are not issues.

The thread may be sticking around... for now... but it's not because anyone is reading your rules or playing your game right now. It's because some few of us are trying to let you know whats wrong with both your game and your attitude.

You are willfully oblivious to all of it. Soon enough we will stop. What you will be left with is a game 2 people you know play test once or twice and document with rules for a game that isn't fun. I hope all the effort making it was worth it.


I just don't stand by when people are calling my ideas terrible and bad the way you did. If you really REALLY are constructive and rational, then why don't you

1. Try again while being polite and see what happens?

or

2. If you think I'm an idiot or something like that, save your own precious time and spend it on something better?

In my opinion, you prove my point by not being constructive, when you keep posting in this thread not adding anything useful to the discussion. If you want, we could kiss and make up and forget it and start a fresh.


Lets clear up a few things.

1) Saying an idea is terrible is not being impolite. As others have pointed out I am blunt. I didn't sugar coat it or appeal to your ego. I told you what I saw in the document you posted. If you cannot separate criticism of the mechanics from your ego to the point that you construe them for personal attack then you probably have no business posting a created work onto the internet.

2) I didn't call you an idiot. The fact that you THINK I even implied that you are an idiot gets right to the root of the issue here. You are taking personal insult to criticisms of your mechanics. The best game designers still have bad ideas that don't pan out and don't make it into the final cuts. Having bad ideas is not in and of itself bad. You can learn a lot more from mistakes than you do success if you can look at the situation critically.

3) There is no kissing and making up. I am not insulted by you and I don't care what you think of me. You can either right your own ship here and maybe walk away with something worth playing or you can watch this thread go down in flames as everyone who decides to participate inevitably decides to stop when they realize talking to someone who refuses to listen isn't worth their time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/07 10:15:16



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




That's definitely not how I see it, but I have to leave it at that, as I have better things do to, such as writing rules and such

While I do that, please feel free to tell us all why you keep posting in this thread; let's say your first post was about the rules, then I guess the rest were about how my response was. One post about the rules and so many about how wrong my response - it almost seems like you entered this thread to start such a discussion and not exactly about the rules...

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: