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What units in the game do you think don't fit into the army they are currently in? These units are extremely unpopular on the tabletop and don't make much sense lore-wise as well. If GW were smart, they would cut off these units and fill the gap with much better stuff.

These units are the worst offenders here, in my opinion:

- Grey Knights Rhino. Basically the Space Marine Rhino. Completely redundant because most Grey Knights will be Deepstriking. The Rhinos were meant for the Inquisitorial Henchmen back in 5th edition, but the Inquisition has been removed and shared transport is no longer a thing.

- Eldar Storm Guardians. An inferior version of the Howling Banshee. As I have said, they exchange 1 shooting attack at S4, potentially AP-3, for 1 melee attack at S3. It also makes no sense that the Eldar would throw their already few troops into melee against hordes of Orks or Tyranids.

- Conscripts. They cost the same as the vastly superior Guardsmen, which are complained to be too efficient nowadays. Why can't they just bring the cost of Guardsmen to 5 points per model?

- Warp Talon: These are not completely extinct, but do Chaos really need another melee-focused infantry unit? They already have Khorne Berserkers, Possessed, Spawn and Raptors. Depending on configuration, Chaos Space Marines, Plague Marines, Chosens, Cultists and Terminators can be melee-focused as well. It's strange but Chaos love melee more than Orks. In the lore, they are mutated Raptors, so just give the Raptors the upgrade to become Daemons with 5++ rather than making a whole new unit.

- Wolf Scouts and Sky Claw. They are not bad, but are just transferred from the Space Marine Codex with little consideration. The Space Wolves already have Blood Claws and Thunderwolves for these types of roles.

- Blood Angel Vanguard Veterans. Why these and Sanguinary Guards at the same time?

What do you think are the unpopular units that don't really fit into their Codice nowadays? Comment below, let me know.

There are in the marine codex 3 different datasheets for veterans: company veterans (mixed gear options), sternguard veterans (only ranged options) and vanguard veterans (only CQ. options). They all cost the same per model unless you take jump packs for the vanguards. The only difference between them are wargear options. I think they could all be merged into 1 or possibly 2 (with the jump pack) datasheets just called veterans, wich would be the normal veteran dudes with all the wargear options. so you could build your melee, or ranged squads by choosing that gear configuration.

Gitdakka wrote:
There are in the marine codex 3 different datasheets for veterans: company veterans (mixed gear options), sternguard veterans (only ranged options) and vanguard veterans (only CQ. options). They all cost the same per model unless you take jump packs for the vanguards. The only difference between them are wargear options. I think they could all be merged into 1 or possibly 2 (with the jump pack) datasheets just called veterans, wich would be the normal veteran dudes with all the wargear options. so you could build your melee, or ranged squads by choosing that gear configuration.

Except that would allow for mixed squads, thus the reasoning for the different datasheets.

Also, Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack instead of Elite.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
There are in the marine codex 3 different datasheets for veterans: company veterans (mixed gear options), sternguard veterans (only ranged options) and vanguard veterans (only CQ. options). They all cost the same per model unless you take jump packs for the vanguards. The only difference between them are wargear options. I think they could all be merged into 1 or possibly 2 (with the jump pack) datasheets just called veterans, wich would be the normal veteran dudes with all the wargear options. so you could build your melee, or ranged squads by choosing that gear configuration.

Except that would allow for mixed squads, thus the reasoning for the different datasheets.

Also, Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack instead of Elite.

Unless there was some FAQ I missed, they're still Elite.

 Porphyrius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
There are in the marine codex 3 different datasheets for veterans: company veterans (mixed gear options), sternguard veterans (only ranged options) and vanguard veterans (only CQ. options). They all cost the same per model unless you take jump packs for the vanguards. The only difference between them are wargear options. I think they could all be merged into 1 or possibly 2 (with the jump pack) datasheets just called veterans, wich would be the normal veteran dudes with all the wargear options. so you could build your melee, or ranged squads by choosing that gear configuration.

Except that would allow for mixed squads, thus the reasoning for the different datasheets.

Also, Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack instead of Elite.

Unless there was some FAQ I missed, they're still Elite.

Yeah, you're right. For some bizzare reason I had the Deathwatch Veterans in my head, but they are Troops, so I have no idea what I was thinking.

In any case, there are legitimate reasons to have them split. Company Vets have the Bodyguard rule, Vanguard Vets can take Jump Packs and are Assaulty and Sternguard Vets are extra shooty (but since Deathwatch exist are totally pointless right now). The problem isn't that there are 3 units, the problem is that normal marines are crap and their veterans even moreso.

Most of these are legacy units there for the sake of not invalidating players' old models.

2 of the 4 grey knights power armor units can't deepstrike and could need a transport. The inquisitorial guys also had Chimeras, and actually still can get into any imperium transport.

The wolf scouts are actually really cool with a unique ability to outflank instead of scout deploy and play much differently than the normal SM scouts.

Vanguard Vets fill a very different role and play very differently than sang guard so I don't consider those two having much overlap.

Assault Marines. There's no reason to take these as they are terrible, and the job you would want them to do is achieved so much better by Vanguard Vets with their +1A and access to power weapons.

Arguably, Tacticals. I know a lot of people like them, but power wise they severely lag behind Intercessors and Scouts. Sure you get a heavy and special weapon, but I don't think it's enough to give them purpose. I'm not sure how you could make them relevant without a complete rethink on power armour dudes in general to be honest. Maybe give them a FRFSRF equivalent somehow to make the unit distinctive... Like if they don't move their Bolters become Rapid Fire 2?

Centurions just because they are hideously overpriced given their lack of durability. They're almost as expensive as a dreadnought but nowhere near as good.

I think my Kantor, Tellion and Lysander drop-pod Sternguard Deathwatch army from Codex: Space Marines is pretty redundant.

Space marine Centurions and Land raiders are pretty useless nowadays really expensive point wise for what they are/ bring.
Space marine Grav deserves a special mention as well for being kind of useless this edition.

Arguably, all Space Marine Codices. But that's the point of their armies?

While on Space Marines: Terminators generally. Crazy expensive for models that die so easily. Can be worth it on Characters for the deep strike, but the units are just terrible.

Explain how skyclaws and wolf scouts are ported over from the marine codex.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
There are in the marine codex 3 different datasheets for veterans: company veterans (mixed gear options), sternguard veterans (only ranged options) and vanguard veterans (only CQ. options). They all cost the same per model unless you take jump packs for the vanguards. The only difference between them are wargear options. I think they could all be merged into 1 or possibly 2 (with the jump pack) datasheets just called veterans, wich would be the normal veteran dudes with all the wargear options. so you could build your melee, or ranged squads by choosing that gear configuration.

Except that would allow for mixed squads, thus the reasoning for the different datasheets.

Also, Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack instead of Elite.

But they can already take mixed wargear if you use the company veterans datasheet.

bibotot wrote:
What units in the game do you think don't fit into the army they are currently in? These units are extremely unpopular on the tabletop and don't make much sense lore-wise as well. If GW were smart, they would cut off these units and fill the gap with much better stuff.

These units are the worst offenders here, in my opinion:

- Grey Knights Rhino. Basically the Space Marine Rhino. Completely redundant because most Grey Knights will be Deepstriking. The Rhinos were meant for the Inquisitorial Henchmen back in 5th edition, but the Inquisition has been removed and shared transport is no longer a thing.

- Eldar Storm Guardians. An inferior version of the Howling Banshee. As I have said, they exchange 1 shooting attack at S4, potentially AP-3, for 1 melee attack at S3. It also makes no sense that the Eldar would throw their already few troops into melee against hordes of Orks or Tyranids.

- Conscripts. They cost the same as the vastly superior Guardsmen, which are complained to be too efficient nowadays. Why can't they just bring the cost of Guardsmen to 5 points per model?

- Warp Talon: These are not completely extinct, but do Chaos really need another melee-focused infantry unit? They already have Khorne Berserkers, Possessed, Spawn and Raptors. Depending on configuration, Chaos Space Marines, Plague Marines, Chosens, Cultists and Terminators can be melee-focused as well. It's strange but Chaos love melee more than Orks. In the lore, they are mutated Raptors, so just give the Raptors the upgrade to become Daemons with 5++ rather than making a whole new unit.

- Wolf Scouts and Sky Claw. They are not bad, but are just transferred from the Space Marine Codex with little consideration. The Space Wolves already have Blood Claws and Thunderwolves for these types of roles.

- Blood Angel Vanguard Veterans. Why these and Sanguinary Guards at the same time?

What do you think are the unpopular units that don't really fit into their Codice nowadays? Comment below, let me know.

Warp Talons have the INCREDIBLY useful ability to ignore overwatch out of deepstrike. You can completely make tau gunline neutered with this ability and a lucky charge roll. Many, many games were decided by the fact I basically denied overwatch.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah, you're right. For some bizzare reason I had the Deathwatch Veterans in my head, but they are Troops, so I have no idea what I was thinking.

In any case, there are legitimate reasons to have them split. Company Vets have the Bodyguard rule, Vanguard Vets can take Jump Packs and are Assaulty and Sternguard Vets are extra shooty (but since Deathwatch exist are totally pointless right now). The problem isn't that there are 3 units, the problem is that normal marines are crap and their veterans even moreso.

yes there are small differences. but the differene is so small I think the separate units are redundant and they could be merged.

Also I don't think the discussion is about if the unit is good or not. There are already loads of threads discussing why marines suck. My point was more that the units could still fill those different roles if it was one datasheet with mixed gear options.

 vaklor4 wrote:


Warp Talons have the INCREDIBLY useful ability to ignore overwatch out of deepstrike. You can completely make tau gunline neutered with this ability and a lucky charge roll. Many, many games were decided by the fact I basically denied overwatch.

Combo this with a Jump Pack Sorcerer with Warp Time.

Gitdakka wrote:
But they can already take mixed wargear if you use the company veterans datasheet.

I already laid out the differences and why they need their own sheets.

Stux wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:


Warp Talons have the INCREDIBLY useful ability to ignore overwatch out of deepstrike. You can completely make tau gunline neutered with this ability and a lucky charge roll. Many, many games were decided by the fact I basically denied overwatch.

Combo this with a Jump Pack Sorcerer with Warp Time.

Not with the FAQ. They said you can't do that now.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Stux wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:


Warp Talons have the INCREDIBLY useful ability to ignore overwatch out of deepstrike. You can completely make tau gunline neutered with this ability and a lucky charge roll. Many, many games were decided by the fact I basically denied overwatch.

Combo this with a Jump Pack Sorcerer with Warp Time.

Not with the FAQ. They said you can't do that now.

Oh yeah, forgot about that!

I'm still having flashbacks about Contemptors in Dreadclaws being Warp Timed into me pre-FAQ

Necron Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers as 2 separate slot choices. Back in the day, Necrons had very few options, so having 2 types of Destroyers was fine.
But now that their options have been filled out a bit, Heavy Destroyers can easily just be merged into the Fast Attack choice with regular Destroyers.

Make Destroyers a 1-5 model unit and any model can swap the Gauss cannon for a Heavy Gauss cannon. Update the plastic box set accordingly.
The Necron codex still has plenty of Heavy options without the H. Destroyers.

I feel the same way about Storm Guardians. They do not need to be a separate choice. Just have a single "Guardian" datasheet and any model can swap its Shuriken catapult for pistol/cc weapon. If the unit does not include the weapon platform, up to 2 models can swap their Shuriken catapult for a Fusion gun or Flamer.
This would also create a new "optimum" build in which a unit can have 8 Shuricats and 2 Fusions/Flamers.

-

 Galef wrote:
Necron Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers as 2 separate slot choices. Back in the day, Necrons had very few options, so having 2 types of Destroyers was fine.
But now that their options have been filled out a bit, Heavy Destroyers can easily just be merged into the Fast Attack choice with regular Destroyers.

Make Destroyers a 1-5 model unit and any model can swap the Gauss cannon for a Heavy Gauss cannon. Update the plastic box set accordingly.
The Necron codex still has plenty of Heavy options without the H. Destroyers.

Do you want to tell him or should I?

That's how Necrons worked in 5th edition (although the limit was 3 Heavy Destroyers). GW split them for a reason.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Do you want to tell him or should I?

That's how Necrons worked in 5th edition (although the limit was 3 Heavy Destroyers). GW split them for a reason.

I was aware of this (though I did briefly forget) as I played Necrons in 4th & 5th. GW may have split them for a reason, but that reason makes them redundant. Which is the point of this thread, is it not?
I believe they were also split so that the Destroyer Cult Formation had more options. Formations no longer exist, so why should they still be a separate choice?

-

Hospitallers are essentially imagifiers who can only use one of the four faith options rather than sharing the more useful healing rules that apothecary types get.

Death cultists/arco-flagellants/crusaders haven't recovered from being stuffed into the same unit in 5th ed.

The sisters of silence are just padded out.

bibotot wrote:
What units in the game do you think don't fit into the army they are currently in? These units are extremely unpopular on the tabletop and don't make much sense lore-wise as well. If GW were smart, they would cut off these units and fill the gap with much better stuff.

These units are the worst offenders here, in my opinion:

- Grey Knights Rhino.

Rhinos are iconic to Space Marines, and as noted there are GKSM that can't teleport. You could argue that Rhinos have become redundant to SM in general, especially compared to Razorbacks, but that's a whole another story.

- Eldar Storm Guardians.

Sort of agree, though you obviously get lots more Storm Guardians, and not every other army is a melee powerhouse.

- Conscripts. They cost the same as the vastly superior Guardsmen, which are complained to be too efficient nowadays. Why can't they just bring the cost of Guardsmen to 5 points per model?

Agree. Ever since they removed suicide conscripts, there's little reason to treat them differently.

- Warp Talon:

Nah, these guys are the jump pack veteran CSM equivalent.

- Wolf Scouts and Sky Claw.

All of the variant SM chapters are unnecessarily redundant. Each should have a handful of flavor units, a chapter tactic/relics/special strategems and use 80% of Codex SM.

Blood Angel Vanguard Veterans. Why these and Sanguinary Guards at the same time?

See above.

What do you think are the unpopular units that don't really fit into their Codice nowadays? Comment below, let me know.

Tau Crisis Bodyguards - with the Character rules being what they are, a Commander can use any Crisis Suit team to screen for him anyways, and there's always drones to sacrifice.

Knight <Name>. Seriously, this could have been one single datasheet until the Dominus Class dropped. I suppose the Rule of 3 would have messed that up, though now there's Armingers and Dominus to fill out a full Knight army.

I'm going to get flamed to hell for this but let's go:

1) Tactical Marines. They are part of the old school "8 dweebs, a stabby sergeant, and a heavy weapon' aesthetic that really needs to go. Since only two guys int eh squad are customizable they end up being more a random throwaway mob that any 'tactical'. They need to either by re-written or just replaced with Intercessors (who are pretty much the same thing with more honesty)

2) Spinefist Termagaunts. Seriously - they are so similar to Hormaguants that one becomes an auto-take over the other.

3) Necron Immortals. Probably the worst offender in the line of 'Grunt with a 24 inch Rapid 1 weapon' range. Not hte least of which is that their fluff doesn't really support Gauss Flayers being rapid fire medium-range weapons.

4) Concscripts. Caught in the 'Imperium can't have cheap models' wave and now just standard guardsmen with a worse statline. The perform the same role far worse than bog standard rifle squads

Now to really start the flame wars:

5) Half the dreadnought line. Especially all the various forgeworld 'It's like our last dreadnought only bigger for more points!' models. You could cut out half the line and still present hte same tactical options

6) Half the Leman Russ line. We really don't need 12 versions of the same damn tank when only 3 of them will ever be taken. Many are just slightly different version of exisitng turrets with a different datasheet. Give me a battle cannon, a vanguisher and a punisher. Generalist, AT, Anti-horde. Make the forgeworld co-ax variants a datasheet upgrade.

6) Tau Battlesuits. Gah! They all loo the same but have slightly different point costs and models sizes. It's terrible. It's like the Earth Caste is being run by Apple or something.

 ChargerIIC wrote:


6) Space Marine. Gah! They all look the same but have slightly different point costs and models sizes. It's terrible. It's like the Imperium is being run by Apple or something.

Fixed that for you.

Mutilators. Hideous models with a stupid concept. GW took powerfists from Oblits away just to legitimize Mutilators. They Do nothing terminators don't already do for CSM.

Monolith. Grossly overcosted to be viable.
Howling Banshees. Have not seen them on a tabletop in years.
Tervigons. Received the nerf bat and didnt recover.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

6) Half the Leman Russ line. We really don't need 12 versions of the same damn tank when only 3 of them will ever be taken. Many are just slightly different version of exisitng turrets with a different datasheet. Give me a battle cannon, a vanguisher and a punisher. Generalist, AT, Anti-horde. Make the forgeworld co-ax variants a datasheet upgrade.

Nearly. Except the Vanquisher is godawful and completely redundant to the Battlecannon currently. Coaxial variants make it nearly ok, but it's still no better than a Battlecannon even Vs tanks, and is still much worse Vs anything else. If we're getting rid of redundant turrets, Vanquisher is 100% on the chopping block. To make it actually competitive, maybe re-roll wounds Vs vehicles and monsters would help a bit, of course in addition to getting the coaxial weapon as default.

Agree with your general principal though. All we really need at the moment is Battlecannon, Punisher, and I would say Annihilator unless we can fix the Vanquisher.