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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I really like the Multitudinous Host battalion, feels very fluff, but with new summoning rules does it become a bit broken and possibly dull to play.

8 minimum units of Pinks, a Herald and the Battalion still fit in a 2k list.

While your at full number of units that's about 140 models worth of free models a turn once you take split-summoning into account (28 Pinks on average, producing 56 Blues, producing 56 Brimes).
On top of that you'll have up to 9 casts a turn.

Maybe I'll leave it for bigger games!!!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

Don't your Pinks only split if there are any remaining models in the unit to split? So couldn't someone pick you apart and deny you splitting?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I was wondering how long it would take people to notice this battalion.

For those who don't know, Multitudinous Host contains 1 Herald of Tzeentch (on foot) and 8 units of Horrors. In each hero phase you add d6 models to each unit (or d3 if they are brimstone). Thus, filling it with pinks means an average of 28(!) free ones added every turn. The one thing preventing it from being among the top cheese is practicality; to properly run this you are going to want a good 150 pink horrors, and at least 50 blues & 50 brims for summoning in; that's 250 models. Then factor in the sheer amount of time it would take to roll all the dice for their attacks.

Don't get me wrong, it's a disgustingly strong battalion and you'll simply swamp almost any opponent with horrors but goodness would it take some doing to actually play.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 andysonic1 wrote:
Don't your Pinks only split if there are any remaining models in the unit to split? So couldn't someone pick you apart and deny you splitting?


Nope, new summoning rules mean that each Pink killed gives you 2 blue horror summoning points and each Blue killed gives you 1 Brimstone summoning point. 10 points let you summon a unit.

That said, just realised you do need a Hero to summon from, so at 2k points you can only squeeze in 1 herald. So the Battalion is relatively easy to deal with at 2k.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Nope, new summoning rules mean that each Pink killed gives you 2 blue horror summoning points and each Blue killed gives you 1 Brimstone summoning point. 10 points let you summon a unit.

That said, just realised you do need a Hero to summon from, so at 2k points you can only squeeze in 1 herald. So the Battalion is relatively easy to deal with at 2k.


Just downgrade two of the Pink units to Brimstones and you can easily fit in at least two heroes, your army becomes three-drop but I don't see one-drop armies being as prevalent in 2nd Edition, and you still have 60 Pinks and two exponentially increasing Brimstone units to act as disposable chaff. Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is fairly durable for its points so that's probably a good pick just to bounce your split summons off, though might be worth shelling out for the better spellcasters like a Curseling anyway. Unless you bring the Blue Scribes the army probably won't get enough Fate points to summon anything besides Horrors anyway.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Brims only get d3/turn from the battalion rather than d6 so aren't that ideal, something to keep in mind.

Also, at 9 potential casts a turn just from what's in the battalion I think he will very much get enough fate points to summon other stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 02:43:12


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Brims only get d3/turn from the battalion rather than d6 so aren't that ideal, something to keep in mind.

Also, at 9 potential casts a turn just from what's in the battalion I think he will very much get enough fate points to summon other stuff.
Ugh, like more Heralds.
The hassle of that many horrors to transport around, though....
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Yeah.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Brims only get d3/turn from the battalion rather than d6 so aren't that ideal, something to keep in mind.

Also, at 9 potential casts a turn just from what's in the battalion I think he will very much get enough fate points to summon other stuff.


Making sure you have enough characters so your splitting and potential summoning isn't nullified by sniping is more important than losing out on a handful of extra models per turn. I think three characters should be the minimum and even that can be dicey depending on the opponent. I think Blues might just be a bit too expensive to still fit in those extra characters, unless you don't mind down-grading another Pink unit.

Potential nine casts doesn't equal reliable nine casts though, especially if your Pink Horror units start dropping as the lesser Horrors can't cast spells. That's why I suggested the Blue Scribes; maybe I should have clarified my original statement as "summon anything useful besides Horrors", and yes, "Horror" in this case includes Heralds.

It's definitely a very scary build for a lot of armies out there as some factions simply won't have the damage capabilities necessary to deal with so many models - or the mobility to get stuck into them before they over-populate the board - especially if you start factoring 1s for Battleshock tests via Destiny Dice in. Just hope you don't get matched against the sledgehammer style Daughters of Khaine/Ironjawz armies.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/08 12:27:39


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Caederes wrote:
maybe I should have clarified my original statement as "summon anything useful besides Horrors", and yes, "Horror" in this case includes Heralds.
Yes, you should have clarified that since "Horrors" has always been used to refer to the units with "Horrors" in their name going back to the 90s. But despite trying to walk that claim back it still doesn't make it true. I do respect the attempt though.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yes, you should have clarified that since "Horrors" has always been used to refer to the units with "Horrors" in their name going back to the 90s. But despite trying to walk that claim back it still doesn't make it true. I do respect the attempt though.


Seeing as I actually shorthand refer to them as "Horror Heroes" in my matches as they possess the "Horror" keyword in both AoS and 40K and I haven't been gaming since the 90s, your attempt at claiming I'm trying to save face is both misguided and laughable.

Any free unit is a bonus but in my experience you want more Horrors of the Pink or Herald variety when you summon, a lot of the other units haven't felt like they are worth the Fate point expenditure to me despite what fringe uses they might have, or the cost - like the Lord of Change - is unreachable at a point early enough in the game where it can make a difference. Getting enough points to summon what you really want isn't terribly easy for Tzeentch unless you really invest it in, hence why - again - I recommend the Blue Scribes. Incredibly easily cast spell that greatly increases the efficiency of the rest of your spell-casting is a no brainer for Fate point generation. Of course, those are my feelings for Tzeentch in general which might not necessarily apply to a Multitudinous Host list...but I think they generally ring true.

These are just my experiences as someone who has been playing both with and against Tzeentch in the new edition, and it's a sentiment I've seen echoed elsewhere too. Take it or leave it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 02:09:15


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Caederes wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yes, you should have clarified that since "Horrors" has always been used to refer to the units with "Horrors" in their name going back to the 90s. But despite trying to walk that claim back it still doesn't make it true. I do respect the attempt though.


Seeing as I actually shorthand refer to them as "Horror Heroes" in my matches as they possess the "Horror" keyword in both AoS and 40K and I haven't been gaming since the 90s, your attempt at claiming I'm trying to save face is both misguided and laughable.
Caederes wrote:
Unless you bring the Blue Scribes the army probably won't get enough Fate points to summon anything besides Horrors anyway.
Well, your statement is factually incorrect, plain and simple. The flailing around trying to bend it into a legitimate sentiment is indeed laughable.

Or, I daresay, horrorble.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 02:29:58


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well, your statement is factually incorrect, plain and simple. The flailing around trying to bend it into a legitimate sentiment is indeed laughable.

Or, I daresay, horrorble.


How about instead of being arrogant and pedantic, you actually provide a constructive response? You have no actual counter-point to ANYTHING I've said.

1) An army with ~9 casts with no bonuses other than the standard +1 for Pink Horrors being near heroes won't be reliably generating too many Fate points in a standard 5-turn game, unless your opponent wants to help you out there with some good spell-casting of their own.
2) The Blue Scribes with their re-roll failed casting rolls power that can be cast on a 2+ and subsequently only unbound on a 9+ significantly boosts the efficiency of successfully casting your spells and, thus, generating Fate points.
3) This list can be greatly improved against all-comers by reducing the number of Pinks for some Blues or Brimstones and investing more into two or three characters. Even losing out on the one-drop bonus is better than losing all potential to summon in your splits.
4) Heralds of Tzeentch, the Blue Scribes, the Changeling, etc all have the "Horror" keyword. Look it up. Just because you don't refer to them generally as "Horrors" like I and some others do doesn't make my short-form nickname for them "factually incorrect", nor am I trying to "bend" anything I said. I clarified that by "Horrors" I was referring to the broad spectrum as, given what you've said, that isn't what others necessarily think of when they see/hear the term.

I'm sorry that my considerable experience with Tzeentch in both AoS 1.0 and AoS 2.0 isn't good enough for you, and I'm sorry that my attempt to provide constructive feedback and help develop the proposed list can be construed as "flailing around". However, seeing as someone in this thread mentioned that doing this army at 2000 points would be untenable with only one hero, I suggested that you can make it work by adding on a few extra heroes so that the army doesn't waste its Fate points generated either through splits or spells cast, at the cost of down-grading some Pink Horror units. Sorry to be of assistance and not be needlessly arrogant and snarky.

Have a good day.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Blue scribes do feel like the best addition and I'd probable slap a defensive artefact on the Herald too (Miasmic blade works well with the new heros protection against shooting). I think the bit question is if you risk 2 heros or drop for Pinks to Blues to get 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Two options that I like:

1)
3 Heralds on Disks
6 * 10 Pink Horrors
2 * 10 Blue Horrors

2)
2 Heralds on foot
The Blue Scribes
5 * 10 Pinks
3 * 10 Blues
(40 points left for some endless spell fun)

Option 2 feels better to me, especially if you can get the Blue horror spell buff off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 09:51:25


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Blue scribes do feel like the best addition and I'd probable slap a defensive artefact on the Herald too (Miasmic blade works well with the new heros protection against shooting). I think the bit question is if you risk 2 heros or drop for Pinks to Blues to get 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Two options that I like:

1)
3 Heralds on Disks
6 * 10 Pink Horrors
2 * 10 Blue Horrors

2)
2 Heralds on foot
The Blue Scribes
5 * 10 Pinks
3 * 10 Blues
(40 points left for some endless spell fun)

Option 2 feels better to me, especially if you can get the Blue horror spell buff off.



I also prefer option two, that re-roll spell buff helps so much and those 40 spare points can help you throw out some of the real power-house Endless Spells like the Geminids.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Caederes wrote:

I also prefer option two, that re-roll spell buff helps so much and those 40 spare points can help you throw out some of the real power-house Endless Spells like the Geminids.


The main disadvantage being I'll have to use a resin model :(
I F£$%ing hate resin models.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Caederes wrote:

I also prefer option two, that re-roll spell buff helps so much and those 40 spare points can help you throw out some of the real power-house Endless Spells like the Geminids.


The main disadvantage being I'll have to use a resin model :(
I F£$%ing hate resin models.
Or convert. I plan on building a Blue Scribes out of some of the Burning Chariot box, because I think the resin one looks the dum.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Caederes wrote:
How about instead of being arrogant and pedantic, you actually provide a constructive response? You have no actual counter-point to ANYTHING I've said.
That's a reasonable request.


The statement I'll address is below. I have not offered responses on other positions nor your opinion as a whole. So I will focus on this because that is the only piece I have been commenting on:
Caederes wrote:
Unless you bring the Blue Scribes the army probably won't get enough Fate points to summon anything besides Horrors anyway.


There are two ways to interpret this;
-That the casting of 8 Pink Horror units & 1 Herald will be insufficient to summon units outside of Blue & Brimstone Horrors the majority of games. This would be due to the fate points needing to be 'subsidized' by the points generated from splitting on order to summon. Accordingly this would mean that in the majority of games the army would be unable to generate 10 fate points, since with those it could summon 3 screamers--that an army with 9 casts a turn could not even generate 10 in a game is obviously illogical we will skip to the next.
-That "Horrors" refers to horror heroes as well, which would make the statement self-defeating since the points sufficient to summon a horror hero could also summon other options. However, see below.

It is reasonable to assume that the meaning is to "summon anything [of notable value]" rather than taking it in a strictly literal fashion. 3 screamers could be valuable but serve more of a niche role and it isn't unreasonable to exclude them from being of notable value in the majority of games. An Exalted Flamer, on the other hand, is undoubtedly of notable value--meaning that 12 fate points must be generated. This still runs into the logical failure outlined in the second of the two options above but we will put that aside.

To continue making the best case scenario for the statement at hand we will create a match that reasonably approximates an 'average game' while making several assumptions in favor:
-The opposing force does not have wizards. This means no dispel capacity but still favors the statement at hand because on average a wizard will cast more spells than they unbind and thus be a net generator of fate points. Armies with capacity to dispel but not case are in the minority and represent a niche situation rather than an average game, so it is unreasonable to include them.
-The rest of the army includes no other wizards.
-There are no bonuses to casting rolls present.
-The herald's ability to cast more than one spell in a turn is never triggered.
-The pink horrors do not have the bonus of their locus--note this is a very large assumption in favor

The spells to be cast are from the herald's warscroll, the two default options, and the six spells from the lore of fate. These give casting values of 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9. Tallying up the odds of success for each of these we get an average of 4.99 (so, 5) casts and thus fate points a turn, with an average of 0.55 casts per unit. However, this does not account for loss of spellcasters during the game.

Round 1 will in all likelyhood see the full generation of 5 fate points (note that a spell with nothing in range can still be cast to generate points).

Round 2 it is unlikely that any whole unit has been slain, unless the Tzeentch player deployed poorly or the enemy is running a very heavy shooting or deep strike list. While the latter two options are a minority of armies combined they are a not-insignificant portion of them. So let's say that one of the units has been wiped out by some means, meaning the number of fate points becomes 4.44 for a total of 9.44.

Round 3 it's likely that multiple units have been wiped out even considering the extra d6 models every turn and the presence of a few units outside the battalion. Let's assume that a full 3 units has been wiped out--given the Tzeentch player's ability to screen against charges & deep strike by layering units this is pretty reasonable. Thus, 3.33 for a total of 12.77 fate points--enough to summon an exalted flamer. If the number of fate points hasn't reached this amount by now there are still two rounds left to generate them.

So to summarize the statement I was addressing is untrue on three levels.
-From a basic logical standpoint taking it for what it actually says; that horrors mean blues & brims
-From a basic logical standpoint taking "horrors" to mean heroes as well
-Assuming the best case scenario and running the numbers of an average game

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker





Sherman Oaks, CA

 Valander wrote:
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Caederes wrote:

I also prefer option two, that re-roll spell buff helps so much and those 40 spare points can help you throw out some of the real power-house Endless Spells like the Geminids.


The main disadvantage being I'll have to use a resin model :(
I F£$%ing hate resin models.
Or convert. I plan on building a Blue Scribes out of some of the Burning Chariot box, because I think the resin one looks the dum.


I converted mine out of a spare disc from the Burning Chariot box, the wierd tentacle fire base thing that it rides on, and then using the blues that ride on the burning chariots as the scribes. I added in some weird books, spikes, and other stuff to make the disc weirder and it works great.




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