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Do Cadians get to reroll ones during overwatch? Their regimental Doctrine says they get to reroll ones during the shooting phase. In the rulebook if I’m not mistaken it says you treat overwatch shooting just like you do shooting in the shooting phase.

 Rockguy475 wrote:
Do Cadians get to reroll ones during overwatch? Their regimental Doctrine says they get to reroll ones during the shooting phase. In the rulebook if I’m not mistaken it says you treat overwatch shooting just like you do shooting in the shooting phase.

No, they do not. There isn't any ambiguity. It says it only works in the shooting phase, so it only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Your logic wound indicate I can't shoot Characters if they aren't the closest unit, which is false as per the FAQ on the subject, and the multiple other FAQs about overwatch and shooting phase restrictions.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rockguy475 wrote:
Do Cadians get to reroll ones during overwatch? Their regimental Doctrine says they get to reroll ones during the shooting phase. In the rulebook if I’m not mistaken it says you treat overwatch shooting just like you do shooting in the shooting phase.

No, they do not. There isn't any ambiguity. It says it only works in the shooting phase, so it only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Your logic wound indicate I can't shoot Characters if they aren't the closest unit, which is false as per the FAQ on the subject, and the multiple other FAQs about overwatch and shooting phase restrictions.

I'm not disagreeing that cadians don't get to re-roll 1's in overwatch, but I think your reasoning on not being able to target characters is flawed. The overwatch rules itself give you the exception to target characters. It's literally in the first sentence of the overwatch rules. I don't see that it has anything to do with the OP's logic, but what can be a better explanation is that it lacks the verbiage "As if it were your shooting phase...," The rest of the overwatch rules go on to state how the shots are resolved like normal shooting attacks with exceptions IE 6's etc. The importance of that line, is to explain that the regular restrictions of making shooting attacks, bar the exception of targeting characters, are still to be followed, otherwise since it's an out of shooting phase, shooting attack, you could ignore the restrictions that govern shooting attacks, in the shooting phase.

I just see that using the character example creates a fallacy that others tend to use to justify certain exceptions for other instances of out of shooting phase shooting.

Angelofblades wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rockguy475 wrote:
Do Cadians get to reroll ones during overwatch? Their regimental Doctrine says they get to reroll ones during the shooting phase. In the rulebook if I’m not mistaken it says you treat overwatch shooting just like you do shooting in the shooting phase.

No, they do not. There isn't any ambiguity. It says it only works in the shooting phase, so it only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Your logic wound indicate I can't shoot Characters if they aren't the closest unit, which is false as per the FAQ on the subject, and the multiple other FAQs about overwatch and shooting phase restrictions.

I'm not disagreeing that cadians don't get to re-roll 1's in overwatch, but I think your reasoning on not being able to target characters is flawed. The overwatch rules itself give you the exception to target characters. It's literally in the first sentence of the overwatch rules. I don't see that it has anything to do with the OP's logic, but what can be a better explanation is that it lacks the verbiage "As if it were your shooting phase...," The rest of the overwatch rules go on to state how the shots are resolved like normal shooting attacks with exceptions IE 6's etc.

I just see that using the character example creates a fallacy that others tend to use to justify certain exceptions for other instances of out of shooting phase shooting.

Free Battle Primer wrote:3. Overwatch
Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

There is no mention of the word Character in the overwatch rules.

What I think you're remembering is the Rulebook FAQ and "Stepping into a New Edition".

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: Can a unit fire Overwatch at a Character if, when it declares its charge at them, there are other visible enemy models that are closer?
A: Yes.

Stepping into a New Edition FAQ wrote:Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase).

*Note, however, that some psychic powers, such as Smite, do not target units but instead affect the nearest enemy unit.

So no, my Character example is not a fallacy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Angelofblades wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rockguy475 wrote:
Do Cadians get to reroll ones during overwatch? Their regimental Doctrine says they get to reroll ones during the shooting phase. In the rulebook if I’m not mistaken it says you treat overwatch shooting just like you do shooting in the shooting phase.

No, they do not. There isn't any ambiguity. It says it only works in the shooting phase, so it only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Your logic wound indicate I can't shoot Characters if they aren't the closest unit, which is false as per the FAQ on the subject, and the multiple other FAQs about overwatch and shooting phase restrictions.

I'm not disagreeing that cadians don't get to re-roll 1's in overwatch, but I think your reasoning on not being able to target characters is flawed. The overwatch rules itself give you the exception to target characters. It's literally in the first sentence of the overwatch rules. I don't see that it has anything to do with the OP's logic, but what can be a better explanation is that it lacks the verbiage "As if it were your shooting phase...," The rest of the overwatch rules go on to state how the shots are resolved like normal shooting attacks with exceptions IE 6's etc.

I just see that using the character example creates a fallacy that others tend to use to justify certain exceptions for other instances of out of shooting phase shooting.

3. Overwatch
Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

There is no mention of the word Character in the overwatch rules.

It doesn't have the mention Character, but it does mention Unit.

Characters are still Units.

By extension

1. Choose Unit to Charge With

When you follow the steps from 1 through to 3, said attacker, is still said unit, call it a quirk of the English language. As you will notice, the very first line of Step 3. Overwatch

Each time a charge is declares against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker.

This line gives the defending player (the one performing overwatch) cause to target the "Attacker," in this case, the Unit chosen to charge from Step 1.

It gives you permission to fire at that unit, but doesn't exempt you from the target rules, which is why the FAQ needed to make clear that doesn't apply outside of the shooting phase. You still go though all the steps, including declaring the target, etc. The FAQ, by extension, means attacks that happen outside of the shooting phase but use the shooting rules also can target characters.

By your logic, I can fire even if I don't have LOS or range, which is false because the rules tell you to use the rules for shooting, which requires LOS and range.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rockguy475 wrote:
Do Cadians get to reroll ones during overwatch? Their regimental Doctrine says they get to reroll ones during the shooting phase. In the rulebook if I’m not mistaken it says you treat overwatch shooting just like you do shooting in the shooting phase.

No, they do not. There isn't any ambiguity. It says it only works in the shooting phase, so it only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Your logic wound indicate I can't shoot Characters if they aren't the closest unit, which is false as per the FAQ on the subject, and the multiple other FAQs about overwatch and shooting phase restrictions.

How on earth do you find that my logic has anything to do with the shooting a Character model rule? That’s completely off subject. And it does not say “only works in Shooting phase” it just doesn’t say Overwatch either.

The rules of Overwatch state you make all shooting in the Overwatch using the same normal rules in the Shooting phase. The question at hand is does a regimental doctrine count as a normal rule. My guess is no but wanted to make sure.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It gives you permission to fire at that unit, but doesn't exempt you from the target rules, which is why the FAQ needed to make clear that doesn't apply outside of the shooting phase. You still go though all the steps, including declaring the target, etc. The FAQ, by extension, means attacks that happen outside of the shooting phase but use the shooting rules also can target characters.

By your logic, I can fire even if I don't have LOS or range, which is false because the rules tell you to use the rules for shooting, which requires LOS and range.

I'm not sure your logic fits. That very line gives the exception to the character rule as it says I can target the would be attacker, and chooses the target for me. It's not like I could choose to target a unit that didn't perform a charge to shoot with in overwatch. To me, the FAQ only serves to support what they meant by that first line in the rule, essentially, you can shoot the unit who is charging you.

You also have my logic wrong, that would in fact, be your logic. If the argument is "I can target characters because it's not the shooting phase," ergo "I can ignore shooting phase restrictions because it's not the shooting phase." You cannot simply cherry pick which rules to follow and which not to. Either the argument has to change or you have to retain logical consistency. Which means that if you support the argument based on "it's not the shooting phase," then you automatically support "ignore shooting phase restrictions."

The FAQ doesn't say anything about the reason being that it's outside the shooting phase.

Q: Can a unit fire Overwatch at a Character if, when it
declares its charge at them, there are other visible enemy models
that are closer?
A: Yes.

Tell me where it says because it's outside the shooting phase or equivalent? Or is that something a majority of players surmised ?

Over watch is a normal shooting attack but in the enemy charge phase

Born soldiers allows cadians to reroll in the shooting phase

As your not in that phase cadians can't use their bonus.
Other things like Marine aura rerolls do work as they aren't phase specific.

 Rockguy475 wrote:
That’s completely off subject. And it does not say “only works in Shooting phase” it just doesn’t say Overwatch either.

"It doesn't say I can't." Really? That's your argument?

Simple question: Is it the shooting phase? If no, you get no re-rolls. It doesn't matter if you shoot outside the shooting phase.

Please, compare with the Dark Angels rule "Grim Resolve".

You can re-roll all hit rolls of 1 for this unit whenever it shoots (including when firing Overwatch) so long as it did not move in its prior Movement phase.

If they wanted Cadians to re-roll overwatch, they would have given them that rule. "Whenever it shoots" applies everywhere. "In the shooting phase" only works in the shooting phase, it's not rocket surgery.

So, in my final statement, it only works in the Shooting Phase, not in Overwatch. To say otherwise is, to put it bluntly, wrong.

 Rockguy475 wrote:
And it does not say “only works in Shooting phase” it just doesn’t say Overwatch either.

It literally says "Re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Shooting phase". The charge phase is not the shooting phase so the discussion should end right there.

Ice_can wrote:
Over watch is a normal shooting attack but in the enemy charge phase

Born soldiers allows cadians to reroll in the shooting phase

As your not in that phase cadians can't use their bonus....

That's the answer.

The critical part of the overwatch rule is " like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase)." A shooting attack resolved in the enemy's charge phase is not a shooting attack in your own shooting phase. This is not ambiguous.

Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements, as if it were the Shooting phase. Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character, can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest enemy unit?

A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that allows them to target a Character even if it is not the closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply.

Fragile wrote:
Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements, as if it were the Shooting phase. Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character, can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest enemy unit?

A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that allows them to target a Character even if it is not the closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply.

The Cadian's rule doesn't say "As if", and firing Overwatch doesn't use the term "as if". You're comparing apples to stellar nucleosynthesis.

"resolved like a normal shooting attack" is even stronger language than "as if it were"

40k BRB wrote:"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

Therefore Cadians can re-roll 1's when firing Overwatch, since "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack".

 DeathReaper wrote:
In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

This is where you're totally incorrect. Cadians only get to re-roll 1's to hit in the shooting phase, it doesn't matter if they are shooting or not.

A Cadian unit that does not move and is issued the Fix Bayonets! order, gets to re-roll 1's when they Fight, because it's in the shooting phase.

You're inserting words where there are none. Again, the full rule:

Re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Shooting phase for units with this doctrine if they did not move in the previous Movement phase. If an INFANTRY unit with this doctrine is issued the ‘Take Aim!’ order and it did not move in the previous Movement phase, re-roll all failed hit rolls for the unit until the end of the phase instead.

There is no section in the rule that says they get to re-roll 1s for shooting, for normal shooting, or for anything shooting related. They re-roll 1's to hit in the Shooting Phase, regardless of what those to hit rolls are, and ONLY in the shooting phase.

So, by your logic, I can re-roll my 1's in the Fight Phase too, because Cadians can re-roll 1's when ordered to Fix Bayonets!

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k BRB wrote:"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

Therefore Cadians can re-roll 1's when firing Overwatch, since "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack".

In which phase is overwatch?
In which phase do the Cadians reroll 1's?

If the answers don't match No Re-rolls.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k BRB wrote:"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

Therefore Cadians can re-roll 1's when firing Overwatch, since "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack".

I don't understand where words like "normal shooting attack" are coming from as they don't appear in the text for the rule. It specifically talks about hit rolls in the shooting phase and then further clarifies that this continues until the end of the phase. As Ice_Can points out, check what phase the turn is in, if it's not the shooting phase you do not re-roll 1s as a result of this rule.

bogalubov wrote:
I don't understand where words like "normal shooting attack" are coming from as they don't appear in the text for the rule.

From '3. Overwatch', third sentence (page 182 of the main rulebook).

 Ghaz wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
I don't understand where words like "normal shooting attack" are coming from as they don't appear in the text for the rule.

From '3. Overwatch', third sentence (page 182 of the main rulebook).

I understand the existence of that phrasing, but after reading the wording of the Doctrine you don't need to check any other sources (unless you want to know what is a "phase"). The wording of the doctrine specifically limits the duration of its application to the shooting phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

This is where you're totally incorrect. Cadians only get to re-roll 1's to hit in the shooting phase, it doesn't matter if they are shooting or not.

If you want to ignore the rule that states "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" go ahead, but I take all the rules into account.

Premise 1: "a normal shooting attack" happens in the shooting phase.

Premise 2: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

The result, you can use rules that say " in the shooting phase" because "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" and "a normal shooting attack" happens in the shooting phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

This is where you're totally incorrect. Cadians only get to re-roll 1's to hit in the shooting phase, it doesn't matter if they are shooting or not.

If you want to ignore the rule that states "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack(albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase)" go ahead, but I take all the rules into account.

Premise 1: "a normal shooting attack" happens in the shooting phase.

Premise 2: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

The result, you can use rules that say " in the shooting phase" because "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" and "a normal shooting attack" happens in the shooting phase.

If you chose to not quote atleast half of the rule then of course your going to be able to interpret it in ways thay don't work id you take the whole rule into consideration.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In a normal shooting attack, Cadians get to re-roll 1's to hit.

This is where you're totally incorrect. Cadians only get to re-roll 1's to hit in the shooting phase, it doesn't matter if they are shooting or not.

If you want to ignore the rule that states "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" go ahead, but I take all the rules into account.

Premise 1: "a normal shooting attack" happens in the shooting phase.

Premise 2: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

The result, you can use rules that say " in the shooting phase" because "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" and "a normal shooting attack" happens in the shooting phase.

The whole sentence is "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers". The overwatch rule allows for shooting, but it still remains the Charge Phase. The Charge Phase is not the Shooting Phase. The Shooting Phase is the only time the Born Soldiers rule allows you to re-roll 1s.

If your normal shooting attack rerolls ones, and you do not reroll ones, then you have not made a normal shooting attack.

And Cadian's normal shooting attacks don't reroll ones. They only reroll ones in their Shooting Phase if they didn't move during the previous Movement Phase.

I have emailed the ITC league, as they answer questions much faster then Games Workshop the following question:

For ITC rule purposes.... Do Astra Militarum Cadians get to re-roll 1s when firing Overwatch if they did not move in their Movement phase? This question has caused some heated debates.

Some people are arguing that they do not get to re-roll ones because Overwatch is in the Charge phase and not the shooting phase. Others are saying they do get to re-roll 1s because you are supposed to treat shooting in Overwatch like a normal shooting attack and normally Cadians do get to re-roll 1s if they didn’t move in the movement phase.


Will let y’all know what they say.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rockguy475 wrote:
That’s completely off subject. And it does not say “only works in Shooting phase” it just doesn’t say Overwatch either.

"It doesn't say I can't." Really? That's your argument?

Simple question: Is it the shooting phase? If no, you get no re-rolls. It doesn't matter if you shoot outside the shooting phase.

Please, compare with the Dark Angels rule "Grim Resolve".

You can re-roll all hit rolls of 1 for this unit whenever it shoots (including when firing Overwatch) so long as it did not move in its prior Movement phase.

If they wanted Cadians to re-roll overwatch, they would have given them that rule. "Whenever it shoots" applies everywhere. "In the shooting phase" only works in the shooting phase, it's not rocket surgery.

So, in my final statement, it only works in the Shooting Phase, not in Overwatch. To say otherwise is, to put it bluntly, wrong.

Love to see you using the designers “intent” to prove your point. Here I agree with you whole heartedly. It says in the shooting phase. That’s when it works. No other phases. Don’t see any reason to think otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps. Love the rocket surgery line. Will use that.

Ice_can wrote:

If you chose to not quote atleast half of the rule then of course your going to be able to interpret it in ways thay don't work id you take the whole rule into consideration.

I have taken the whole rule into consideration. That is why they get the re-rolls.

bogalubov wrote:
The whole sentence is "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers". The overwatch rule allows for shooting, but it still remains the Charge Phase. The Charge Phase is not the Shooting Phase. The Shooting Phase is the only time the Born Soldiers rule allows you to re-roll 1s.

Read that again, slowly... Specifically this part: "and uses all the normal rules"

 alextroy wrote:
And Cadian's normal shooting attacks don't reroll ones. They only reroll ones in their Shooting Phase if they didn't move during the previous Movement Phase.

And Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack" Does a normal shooting attack happen in the shooting phase? A: Yes. Therefore you resolve Overwatch with all the same rules you would for a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

I could have sworn I saw an FAQ which addressed this.

The Biel-Tan Craftworld trait it similar, but worded differently, and I know people use it in Overwatch.

"Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of
ASPECT WARRIORS with this attribute.
In addition, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1
for shuriken weapons used by units with
this attribute. A shuriken weapon is any
weapon profile whose name includes
the word ‘shuriken’ (e.g. shuriken pistol,
Avenger shuriken catapult etc.) Kurnous’
Bow is also a shuriken weapon."

How do you guys feel about the Biel-Tan one? (Just to muddy the waters)