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Made in be
Dakka Veteran






I can very well understand realm rules in narrative games and campaigns but what are other TO's doing?

We opted to do our upcoming tournament in 2.0 without realm rules.

We thought this would most likely be too time consuming as everything is new and people will just be doubting there time away, but I can imagine at some point it becoming a thing and a new dimension to the game. (like giving each table nr a different realm in a tournament)
My concerns to use them are:

Giving wizards access to 6-7 extra spells without extra cost seems a bit to cheesy as people would be forced to take wizards (there are already pitched battleplans were only wizards and artifact carriers can score objectives and this would be an extra push in that direction). Giving people access to so many option will make a lot of player consume a lot of time. (With 2u30 to play a game, 30 min setting up you would only get 10 min/15 min per player per turn which most players don't make without these rules in my experience)

Also endless spells can become more powerful by just lucking out your realm so another push.

If you need to pick what realm your army is from, it becomes a roulette when you get certain benefits and when not. So it would just be adding an extra luck factor to the game which a lot of tournament players do not like. (=> we are talking about tournaments, so catering for tournament players)

What do you guys do/think/plan on doing with these rules?
   
Made in us
Clousseau




For our league we use all of the rules and for the narrative campaigns I run we use all of the rules. There is some pushback on this, but the guys that don't like how I do things have started their own tournament group at a different store now. I have no idea what they are doing but I imagine they will not be using realm rules or malign sorcery until LVO and Adepticon come out with their big rules packets and confirm using them since they want their games to be practice games for those events.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/10 11:28:51


 
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord






I’d probably leave Realms out of tournaments.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

The Frontline gaming guys are against the random Realm rules being used in tournaments so we most likely won't see them anytime soon. Personally I agree: random board wide rules that have the potential to invalidate your army have no place in a fair game between to players. You have to roll to cast spells, to run, to charge, to unbind, and you can fail all these rolls. You cannot fail a random roll to determine a realm that hits the board with a blanket effect that you now have to deal with the entire game. This can be fun in open play and narrative games. This has no place in matched play.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




And thus we will see the end of GW providing rules such as this very soon.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 andysonic1 wrote:
The Frontline gaming guys are against the random Realm rules being used in tournaments so we most likely won't see them anytime soon. Personally I agree: random board wide rules that have the potential to invalidate your army have no place in a fair game between to players. You have to roll to cast spells, to run, to charge, to unbind, and you can fail all these rolls. You cannot fail a random roll to determine a realm that hits the board with a blanket effect that you now have to deal with the entire game. This can be fun in open play and narrative games. This has no place in matched play.

Alternatively, the Tournament Organizers could specify which Realm specific missions use and people could know in advance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/10 14:30:56


 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






As Kanluwen said, it's easy enough for the TO to announce a specific realm for the whole tournament or for each round.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






auticus wrote:
And thus we will see the end of GW providing rules such as this very soon.

I hope not. but giving 7 bonus spells to all wizards and a chance of mega boosts to certain armies is maybe a bit much?



Alternatively, the Tournament Organizers could specify which Realm specific missions use and people could know in advance.

Even then,considering the rules, that seems more like a narrative event and less then a matched play tournament setting.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 minisnatcher wrote:

Alternatively, the Tournament Organizers could specify which Realm specific missions use and people could know in advance.

Even then,considering the rules, that seems more like a narrative event and less then a matched play tournament setting.

Not really. It's no different than specifying if Night Fighting rules apply or things of that nature.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Its something that I have struggled mightily with when it comes to our competitive tournament players as well so I understand the perspective.

Scenarios with a lot of special rules are generally frowned upon and can also incite some to get downright hostile.

I ran a campaign day last summer using a warhammer world scenario. One of the tournament players after 15 minutes in because of the scenario special rules totally lost his ****, shouted some angry words, grabbed his stuff and stormed out of the store and then that night posted some very angry comments in our group facebook about how his time was wasted.

When I watch them set up their own events now, there are no special rules, the matches always come from matched play rules, and they try to keep as much of the random elements out of the games completely.

Down at our store, this is the default way of playing. (just throw two armies down at 2000p, take a matched play scenario, and leave it at that)
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






 Kanluwen wrote:
 minisnatcher wrote:

Alternatively, the Tournament Organizers could specify which Realm specific missions use and people could know in advance.

Even then,considering the rules, that seems more like a narrative event and less then a matched play tournament setting.

Not really. It's no different than specifying if Night Fighting rules apply or things of that nature.


the layer of rules is quite a bit larger here if you add malign sorcery. endless spells become stronger, 7 xtra spells for wizards, and a random effect that might buff only one of the 2 armies. in a highly competitive setting, this may be enough to throw the game when the effect falls as the winner might be clear. again i am talking for competitive tournaments and catering to the people that attend them only.nothing else. I can see us using it in leagues/campaigns/etc
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 minisnatcher wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 minisnatcher wrote:

Alternatively, the Tournament Organizers could specify which Realm specific missions use and people could know in advance.

Even then,considering the rules, that seems more like a narrative event and less then a matched play tournament setting.

Not really. It's no different than specifying if Night Fighting rules apply or things of that nature.


the layer of rules is quite a bit larger here if you add malign sorcery. endless spells become stronger, 7 xtra spells for wizards, and a random effect that might buff only one of the 2 armies. in a highly competitive setting, this may be enough to throw the game when the effect falls as the winner might be clear. again i am talking for competitive tournaments and catering to the people that attend them only.nothing else. I can see us using it in leagues/campaigns/etc

And ANYONE can take any Endless Spells, those 7 extra spells are for ANY Wizards present, and then Command Abilities that go for both sides.

You're just making my point here. If the tournament packet is available far enough in advance with Realms noted for specific matches, the argument of "but imbalanced!" means nothing.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Nothing about AOS is fair or balanced.

Are we supposed to pretend that tournament AoS isn't exclusively Tzeentch anyway?

I really don't like the idea of not using rules because they add some variance to the game.

And let's also pause for a moment here. Giving wizards extra spells is fine. Most can only cast 1-2 spells anyway, and they come with things you'll want to use over realm spells.

But I don't really care, since I won't be playing Age of Tzeentch, aka Tournament AoS.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/10 16:26:06


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






auticus wrote:
Its something that I have struggled mightily with when it comes to our competitive tournament players as well so I understand the perspective.

Scenarios with a lot of special rules are generally frowned upon and can also incite some to get downright hostile.

I ran a campaign day last summer using a warhammer world scenario. One of the tournament players after 15 minutes in because of the scenario special rules totally lost his ****, shouted some angry words, grabbed his stuff and stormed out of the store and then that night posted some very angry comments in our group facebook about how his time was wasted.

When I watch them set up their own events now, there are no special rules, the matches always come from matched play rules, and they try to keep as much of the random elements out of the games completely.

Down at our store, this is the default way of playing. (just throw two armies down at 2000p, take a matched play scenario, and leave it at that)


a campaign day is something else then a tournament in my book and caters to another type of players. we have these type of forging a narrative for the day events too and tournament players frown on them, and basically don't get it why you would want to do that.. seems like that guy should read his rulebook where it says to contact the TO beforehand to ask if there are special rules/houserules etc.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Would each table being a specific realm work ?

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Made in be
Dakka Veteran






 Kanluwen wrote:
 minisnatcher wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 minisnatcher wrote:

Alternatively, the Tournament Organizers could specify which Realm specific missions use and people could know in advance.

Even then,considering the rules, that seems more like a narrative event and less then a matched play tournament setting.

Not really. It's no different than specifying if Night Fighting rules apply or things of that nature.


the layer of rules is quite a bit larger here if you add malign sorcery. endless spells become stronger, 7 xtra spells for wizards, and a random effect that might buff only one of the 2 armies. in a highly competitive setting, this may be enough to throw the game when the effect falls as the winner might be clear. again i am talking for competitive tournaments and catering to the people that attend them only.nothing else. I can see us using it in leagues/campaigns/etc

And ANYONE can take any Endless Spells, those 7 extra spells are for ANY Wizards present, and then Command Abilities that go for both sides.

You're just making my point here. If the tournament packet is available far enough in advance with Realms noted for specific matches, the argument of "but imbalanced!" means nothing.


the argument is not only imbalanced, it is it might be gamebreaking. But to give an example. giving adding 1 to rend on shooting attacks might just end the game vs some lists. it is a 1/6 shot that it goes off in a certain realm but can be gamebreaking in a highly competitive setting. can you prepare for that? not every army has access to the necessary options to do that so players at a disadvantage won't come or will not come back and that is really the problem here. Catering to tournament players so that they will come and enjoy the event and talk well of the event afterward so that the community will grow.

a second argument is too time consuming due to to much choice. most people do not drill 3 realms for 3 games beforehand and i know enough players that will be overlooking there options every hero phase. it is hard enough to keep players on track as it is.

2. yes both sides wizards have it. so you force wizards on both sides (if they have access to them) and better models/armies needed for each specific event (=>competitive setting). You might have a large community of AOS players, we do not, and forcing to buy new models/different armies for each event can scare people away.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 Mr Morden wrote:
Would each table being a specific realm work ?


That would be a bad idea IMO. It would be too easy for a player to say that they only lost because they were playing on table 3 (Aqshy). If they'd been on table 2 (Ghyran), they'd obviously have beaten their opponent! It's better if all matches in a given round are played with the same rules, and that that is know well ahead of time so players can prepare.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

 EnTyme wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Would each table being a specific realm work ?


That would be a bad idea IMO. It would be too easy for a player to say that they only lost because they were playing on table 3 (Aqshy). If they'd been on table 2 (Ghyran), they'd obviously have beaten their opponent! It's better if all matches in a given round are played with the same rules, and that that is know well ahead of time so players can prepare.
Yeah, I can't see each table having different realm rules. What I could see, though, is each round all tables having a given (same) realm rule. I suspect a lot of WAACers would cry foul at that though.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Thats how the league we're doing right now goes. Every round is in a realm.

And indeed the very competitive guys did get angry at that.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 minisnatcher wrote:

the argument is not only imbalanced, it is it might be gamebreaking. But to give an example. giving adding 1 to rend on shooting attacks might just end the game vs some lists. it is a 1/6 shot that it goes off in a certain realm but can be gamebreaking in a highly competitive setting. can you prepare for that?

Since most shooting attacks are -1 or 0 Rend, yeah you can prepare for it fairly well.

Also, since technically the person who picked the Realm rolls for the terrain features it would mean that again the onus would be on the TOs.
not every army has access to the necessary options to do that so players at a disadvantage won't come or will not come back and that is really the problem here. Catering to tournament players so that they will come and enjoy the event and talk well of the event afterward so that the community will grow.

Oh please. "Catering to tournament players" is pointless, because they'll always have something to whine about afterwards. You've also ignored that knowing the rules is important--your "add 1 to rend on shooting attacks" bit, for example, is only for attacks over a certain range(12").

a second argument is too time consuming due to to much choice. most people do not drill 3 realms for 3 games beforehand and i know enough players that will be overlooking there options every hero phase. it is hard enough to keep players on track as it is.

Which is why you put it in the tournament pack in advance, not just spring it day of...?

C'mon man, aren't you the one arguing that this wouldn't be for "real" events? This works BEST for real events where the TOs are on the ball and know their stuff.

2. yes both sides wizards have it. so you force wizards on both sides (if they have access to them) and better models/armies needed for each specific event (=>competitive setting). You might have a large community of AOS players, we do not, and forcing to buy new models/different armies for each event can scare people away.

Allies are a thing, don't start this crap.
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






As I do not feel like bickering and want to get back on topic, I checked some upcoming European tournaments on t3 (France, Belgium, Germany,Switzerland)

Here the options used are:
1. Not using realms
2. Everyone gets an origin realm, and 1 bonus artifact from the realm. Battles are in 3 random realms decided randomly for everyone each round.
3. swapping out realm rules (access to artifacts and spells) for allegiance rules.

Most are not even mentioning the existence of these rules. I think most TO's are waiting what larger tournaments will do.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




why not just do realms are literally just for spell use, and each realm effect was just a 1 so nothing broken like getting 2 free monsters on Ghur cause a 5 was rolled and you won the roll off for that, or a shooting army gets max range of 6" on Shadow.

Nearly 3k+ points of Slaanesh (AoS)
2500 points of Ironjawz
Too many points of Space Marines. 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






After re-reading the rules for matched play/pitched battles in ghb 2018 (the thing most tournaments say they will follow) I noticed that there is no step for choosing a realm and nothing is even mentioning these realms in these chapters(or did I miss something). So I guess these tournaments are not using realm rules either.

The only way to do use them is as a house rule, which GW says you can do to make your event unique etc. So I guess they are leaving it up to the communities to make house rules for the if and how and when and to what extend to use them measured to your own local gaming community.

why not just do realms are literally just for spell use, and each realm effect was just a 1 so nothing broken like getting 2 free monsters on Ghur cause a 5 was rolled and you won the roll off for that, or a shooting army gets max range of 6" on Shadow.


I could see that work better then anything I have read so far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 06:55:41


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






The Nova Open is using realms for the GT. Not my personal choice, but I welcome the rules with no hesitance. No one will know how well they work on a large event if no one tries.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 minisnatcher wrote:
After re-reading the rules for matched play/pitched battles in ghb 2018 (the thing most tournaments say they will follow) I noticed that there is no step for choosing a realm and nothing is even mentioning these realms in these chapters(or did I miss something). So I guess these tournaments are not using realm rules either.

The only way to do use them is as a house rule, which GW says you can do to make your event unique etc. So I guess they are leaving it up to the communities to make house rules for the if and how and when and to what extend to use them measured to your own local gaming community.

why not just do realms are literally just for spell use, and each realm effect was just a 1 so nothing broken like getting 2 free monsters on Ghur cause a 5 was rolled and you won the roll off for that, or a shooting army gets max range of 6" on Shadow.


I could see that work better then anything I have read so far.

They're in the Core Book. The whole process and tables is in there.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Yep they split the rules for matched play across both the core rulebook and the general's handbook.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

auticus wrote:
Yep they split the rules for matched play across both the core rulebook and the general's handbook.

The Realm Rules are considered just that: Realm Rules. Not specifically for Matched, Open, or Narrative.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I'm not saying it was just for matched play. I'm just saying that they split the rules for matched play across two books in general. Its a point of contention among people that didn't want to have to buy the core book.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu




Southern California

NOVA open packet came out. Day1 is all in Gyran. Day two is all in Chamon.

As an entrant.. I hate this. It only benefits the "magic rich" in a rich get richer scenario. They obviously picked the two weakest or two least broken of the realms as a guinea pig. How do I NOT include an endless lifeswarm in my army though? If I dont Im not running as competitive a list as I could. I hate being pigeon holed into taking units.

https://novaopen.sharepoint.com/:w:/r/_layouts/15/Doc.aspx?sourcedoc=%7Bb185fbef-e5b6-4623-b8fb-cf1b585aaa1d%7D&action=default

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 13:34:25


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Well if you think about it you are already pigeon holed into taking certain units (the most optimized and efficient). To me this is just changing the meta around day after day so that the most efficient and optimized changes during the event.
   
 
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