Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat

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**DoomMouse**

I've had this rule used on me a few times, then started using it myself and I was recently challenged about it. If a space marine character uses the stratagem 'only in death does duty end', can it be used to consolidate in and attack a nearby model (one within 3" of it).

The stratagem says you 'fight as if it were the fight phase'. This includes consolidating in. I was challenged on it as in the rules for the fight phase have rules for which models may be selected to fight (either ones that charged or are within an inch of an enemy). I was wondering if this limitation applies or the stratagem just means you fight anyway. Just want to make sure I'm playing it right. Cheers for any help!

**JohnnyHell**

Unless you charged, you can only Fight in the Fight Phase if you’re within 1” of an enemy unit. I don’t see this as any different, so I’d say no, you cannot.

**BaconCatBug**

DoomMouse wrote:
I've had this rule used on me a few times, then started using it myself and I was recently challenged about it. If a space marine character uses the stratagem 'only in death does duty end', can it be used to consolidate in and attack a nearby model (one within 3" of it).

The stratagem says you 'fight as if it were the fight phase'. This includes consolidating in. I was challenged on it as in the rules for the fight phase have rules for which models may be selected to fight (either ones that charged or are within an inch of an enemy). I was wondering if this limitation applies or the stratagem just means you fight anyway. Just want to make sure I'm playing it right. Cheers for any help!

It cannot be used to do so. When you fight as if it were the fight phase, you check to see if you're within 1" of an enemy or if you charged. If you are neither, you cannot pile in.

**Kommissar Kel**

Yes; you can use it.

Step 1 is satisfied by the Strategem itself: you have no choice in units that will fight. None of the restrictions or requiements from this step apply.

Step 2 allows for the 3" movement to get within 1" range of step 3.

Step 3 requires targeting a unit or units within 1"; which would be the only place that could deny steps 4 and 5.

**Valkyrie**

I don't get how this can even be used. Is there a scenario where he can be killed in the fight phase without being within 1" of an enemy. If you've killed him in the shooting phase, he can't use the strategem to fight as it's still in the shooting phase.

**nosferatu1001**

Over Watch?

**Kommissar Kel**

Valkyrie wrote:
I don't get how this can even be used. Is there a scenario where he can be killed in the fight phase without being within 1" of an enemy. If you've killed him in the shooting phase, he can't use the strategem to fight as it's still in the shooting phase.

It doesn't matter when he is slain, only that he is slain.

If he is slain in the enemy shooting phase(or supercharging plasma in his shooting phase), and there is an enemy unit within 4"; then the marine player can activate the strategem, choose to have the character "fight as if it were his fight phase"("fighting" in the fight phase are steps 2-6) and first pile in 3" and make attacks.

Nos: only dead in overwatch if he declared the charge within 4".

**BaconCatBug**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
("fighting" in the fight phase are steps 2-6)

Sorry, but this is totally wrong. Where do you get the faintest idea you can skip step 1 of the fight phase rules when you fight outside of the phase? That's like saying "I am shooting in the movement phase, so I can ignore step 3 and can shoot into a combat." (The risk... IS TOO GREAT!)

Furthermore, the FAQ for fighting "again", while not 100% the same situation, clearly states you go though ALL the steps, including Choose a unit to fight with, which states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.

**Lance845**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:
("fighting" in the fight phase are steps 2-6)
Sorry, but this is totally wrong. Where do you get the faintest idea you can skip step 1 of the fight phase rules when you fight outside of the phase? That's like saying "I am shooting in the movement phase, so I can ignore step 3 and can shoot into a combat." (The risk... IS TOO GREAT!)

Furthermore, the FAQ for fighting "again", while not 100% the same situation, clearly states you go though ALL the steps, including Choose a unit to fight with, which states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."
BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.

I think the argument is that you don't CHOOSE a unit to fight because the stratagem covers that step. You are not actually running threw the entire Fight phase. You are only running threw the steps that that specific unit does in the fight phase.

When I use Single Minded Annhilation on a unit to shoot again in the shooting phase I am not picking that again AFTER I used the stratagem. The unit has already been selected. I move on to step 2.

**p5freak**

You can only attacks units you declared a charge against, unless you are already within 1". If you die to overwatch, and you are within 4", you can use the stratagem to pile in and attack. If you didnt charge the unit you can only shoot them.

The stratagem doesnt tell you to skip the first step of the fight phase. It clearly says you can fight as if you were in the fight phase, which means you go through steps 1-6.

**Lance845**

p5freak wrote:
You can only attacks units you declared a charge against, unless you are already within 1". If you die to overwatch, and you are within 4", you can use the stratagem to pile in and attack. If you didnt charge the unit you can only shoot them.

The stratagem doesnt tell you to skip the first step of the fight phase. It clearly says you can fight as if you were in the fight phase, which means you go through steps 1-6.

Every unit that exists on the table cannot fight in the fight phase. Only units that meet specific criteria can fight, Which is detailed in step 1. The stratagem does not tell the unit that it IS the fight phase. It says they may fight as though it was. The unit already has permission to fight from the stratagem. Not the criteria laid out by step 1.

**JohnnyHell**

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t give permission to ignore the Fight Phase rules, rather it allows you to use them. Step 1 includes rules that would disqualify the unit from being selected, and as we have no permission to ignore them you cannot. You can Shoot if you have guns, but not Fight.

**Kommissar Kel**

BCB: Step 1 tells us that it is not Fighting in the fight phase, it is selecting a unit to fight with in the fight phase; it then ends the rules of the step with "a fight is resolved with the following steps."

The Strategem is pre-selecting the fighting unit, no-matter what phase of whose turn the Strategem is used; including a fight phase.

The FAQ you used as "evidence" against my case also has no bearing on it(or you might call it a "special snowflake FAQ); it only clarifies that units with those abilities get placed back into the available units from step 1(as opposed to getting an immediate second Fight resolution). Pretty much apples and oranges; as the abilities require a fight phase, availability from step 1 to begin with, and are not a preselection of units from step 1.

**BaconCatBug**

Again, [Citation Needed] on that it "pre-selects" (whatever that means) the unit.

**skchsan**

The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.

If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?

**Kommissar Kel**

"Only in death does duty end", space marine codex, strategemsg: "...that model summons the strength for one final attack, and can immediately either... or fight ad if it were your Fight phase"

That model, no others. Immediately. And does so in whichever phase of either player in which it was slain.

That model fighting as if it were your fight phase means that you do not select it in step 1; the strategem has done that for you regardless of distance to enemy models.

And on top of that how can you reconcile your claim that the character can perform step 2 or 6 if it cannot be selected in step 1? At least Johnyhell is consistent in his answer of flat-out no, you cannot unless the character was within 1" when slain.

**Lance845**

skchsan wrote:
The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.

If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?

This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.

It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.

**skchsan**

Lance845 wrote:
skchsan wrote:
The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.

If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?

This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.

It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.

Battle Primer pg 5
1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit. Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with. After all of the unit’s models have fired, you can choose another unit to shoot with, until all eligible units that you want to shoot with have done so.

Ineligibility for a unit to be picked to shoot in shooting phase is determinant upon 3 conditions:
1. unit that advanced
2. unit that fell back this turn
3. unit that is within 1" of enemy unit

If a unit is within 1" of enemy unit, the said unit cannot shoot unless otherwise noted.

Battle Primer pg 8
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:

Eligibility to fight in the fight phase (or as if fight phase for that matter) is determinant upon 2 conditions:
1. unit has charged
2. unit has enemy models within 1"

The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.

If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."

**Xenomancers**

You still have to meet the criteria to fight in the fight phase.

Which means you have to have charged - or be within 1" of an enemy model.

It's already been pointed out in a very simple manner by skchsan. Are you saying this this stratagem could be used to shoot while you are within 1" of an enemy model?

"As if it were the fight phase" is a very clear direction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
skchsan wrote:
The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.

If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?

This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.

It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.

Pistols have a special rule that says they can shoot at targets within 1" in the shooting phase. It is not iffy at all.

**Lance845**

Pistols do have a rule that lets them be fired within 1" yes.

But the shooting phase rules say 1) pick a unit to shoot. a unit that is within 1" cannot be selected. 2) pick a weapon to shoot with.

You cannot pick the pistol if you cannot pick the unit first. Just follow the simple order of operations.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skchsan wrote:

The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.

If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."

Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?

A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.

**skchsan**

Lance845 wrote:
Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?

RE: "Stratagems that allow you to shoot normally after advancing doesn't work on Assault weapons - they still suffer -1 to hit."

DA FAQ & Errata:
Page 137 – Speed of the Raven
Add the following sentence:
‘In addition, that unit does not suffer the penalty to hit rolls for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’

SM FAQ & Errata:
Page 196 – Born in the Saddle
Add the following sentence:
‘In addition, that unit does not suffer the penalty to hit rolls for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’

Index: Imperium 2
FAQs
ASTRA MILITARUM
Q: If an Astra Militarum unit equipped with Assault weapons Advances in their Movement phase and subsequently has the ‘Forwards, for the Emperor!’ order issued to them, is the -1 penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons waived?
A: No.

RE: Pistol rule that allows you to fire within 1" of enemy units doesn't work because [REASONS].

Rulebook FAQ & Errata:
Q: If my unit, which is equipped with Pistols, is within 1" of an enemy unit in the Shooting phase, but the closest enemy unit to some of the models in my unit is actually another enemy unit (i.e. not the enemy unit that is within 1" of my unit), which unit do those models shoot at?
A: Each individual model in your unit can shoot its Pistols at the closest enemy unit, whether it is the unit within 1" of the firing model’s unit or not (in such circumstances, the firing model can shoot the closest unit even if other friendly units are within 1" of it).

IA Xenos I FAQ & Errata:
Page 32 – ‘Chinork’ Warkopta, Abilities
Add the following datasheet to the datasheet:
‘Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and line of sight from any point on this model’s base. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. Note that passengers cannot shoot if this model Falls Back, even though the ‘Chinork’ Warkopta itself can.’

Index: Chaos FAQ & Errata:
Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol.

Index: Xenos 1 FAQ & Errata:
Q: Can I use the Dodge ability of Wyches or Hekatrix Bloodbrides in the Shooting phase when my unit is shot by an enemy unit firing Pistols if my unit is within 1" of the firing unit?
A: No.

I can go on but the broken RAW regarding pistols and assault weapons have been clarified/revised per FAQs and erratas. Note, the actual rule for pistols and being able to fire while within 1" of enemy unit itself is not broken - it only becomes an issue when dealing with specific interactions.

Lance845 wrote:
A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.

True, but if the unit does not contain any models that are equipped with ranged weapons, that unit cannot be selected to shoot.

**Xenomancers**

Lance845 wrote:
Pistols do have a rule that lets them be fired within 1" yes.

But the shooting phase rules say 1) pick a unit to shoot. a unit that is within 1" cannot be selected. 2) pick a weapon to shoot with.

You cannot pick the pistol if you cannot pick the unit first. Just follow the simple order of operations.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skchsan wrote:

The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.

If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."

Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?

A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.

I don't have time to look through the giant errata but this has been changed. I'm pretty sure there was just a punctuation error. Supposed to be a coma, not a period in the sentence
It says something to the effect of "You can't select a unit to shoot that has fallen back, has advanced, or is within 1" of an enemy model. Unless otherwise stated, each unit fires with all it's ranged weapons it's armed with" They fixed it in the Errata. It was already abundantly clear that units with assault weapons/ pistols/ or a rule that says they can fall back and shoot - should be allowed to do so.

**Galef**

I think it is pretty clear that "as if it were X phase" is giving permission to act as if it was X phase, but you still have to meet all the criteria to do the action.

So saying that you can fight even you hadn't charged or in 1" of an enemy is the same as saying the model can fight an enemy unit is halfway across the table.
You cannot put all the emphasis on "it can fight" without the qualifier "as if in the Fight phase"
You still have to use the rules and meet the criteria.
The Strat is merely giving you the permission to break the sequence and do an extra action that is would be able to do if it were that phase.

It allows you to fight "as if" in the Fight Phase. So if it were the fight phase, could you fight? If you hadn't charged or in 1" of an enemy, the answer is NO

-

**Kommissar Kel**

And again; step 1 is satisfied by the Strategem itself.

You are told this model can do the thing, step 1 says it would not normally be elihible to do the thing.

What Lance is talking about with pistols and assault weapons are the same step 1 issues: a unit that advances or is within 1" cannot be selected to shoot(BCB has a link to a thread about this in his sig); but we still select those umits to shoot when armed with assault weapons and pistols respectively.

Let me pose 2 other scenarios for anyone to answer, and please give the reasons for your answers:

1) opponent's turn, he charges with 3 units; 1 of whom charge the SM character. Opponent step-1s the unit that charged the character first, slaying him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?

2) either player's turn in the fight phase; SM Character has already fought. Unit engaged with him slays him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?

**skchsan**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
1) opponent's turn, he charges with 3 units; 1 of whom charge the SM character. Opponent step-1s the unit that charged the character first, slaying him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?

Yes.
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is.
SM character was eligible unit to be chosen to attack, therefore stratagem can be used.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
2) either player's turn in the fight phase; SM Character has already fought. Unit engaged with him slays him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?

RAW, no because:
No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase.
The stratagem is different from "fight again" stratagems, and does not specifically allow you to fight more than once.

RAI, yes I'd be inclined to think he can fight again, but a part of me believes it's to be used when an expensive model dies without being able to do anything so you're trying to squeeze the juice out of it before you toss it.

**Galef**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
And again; step 1 is satisfied by the Strategem itself.

You are told this model can do the thing, step 1 says it would not normally be elihible to do the thing.

No, the Strat does NOT satisfy Step 1, it merely selects the model for you. If that model can't fight normally as if it were actually the Fight phase, it still cannot fight.
You're focusing too much on the "this model can fight" part and ignoring the "as if it were the Fight phase" part

-

**Kommissar Kel**

You are all over the place in this.

They can both only be yes or no.

In #1 there are still 2 charging units that have yet to Fight, step 1 says charging units fight before any other units can fight.

But again: step 1 is determining who can fight and selecting those units who can. The Strategem is either skipping step 1, or stating that the SM Character can and is the selected unit to fight.

Skipping step 1 is justified by the strategem stating that the model simply fights; step 1 is part of the fight phase but cannot be part of fighting in the fight phase because it would then be self-referential(selecting a unit to fight would bring it right back to step 1 ad nauseam)

If you believe that step 1 is part of fighting and not just part of the fight phase, then the strategem has satisfied step-1 for you, including the breaking of those basic rules with this special rule: you cannot select any other units to fight during the strategem's resolution; it is only the slain character that fights.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galef wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:
And again; step 1 is satisfied by the Strategem itself.

You are told this model can do the thing, step 1 says it would not normally be elihible to do the thing.

No, the Strat does NOT satisfy Step 1, it merely selects the model for you.

-

You mean...

It merely does what step 1 is there for, and does it in spite of the restrictions against doing that found in step 1?

So....

What you are saying is that it satisfies step 1 in choosing the character to fight.

**skchsan**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
In #1 there are still 2 charging units that have yet to Fight, step 1 says charging units fight before any other units can fight.

And the stratagem states you do these actions "immediately" - this specific clause allow you to interrupt those units "attacking first due to having charged."

Kommissar Kel wrote:
But again: step 1 is determining who can fight and selecting those units who can. The Strategem is either skipping step 1, or stating that the SM Character can and is the selected unit to fight.

Skipping step 1 is justified by the strategem stating that the model simply fights; step 1 is part of the fight phase but cannot be part of fighting in the fight phase because it would then be self-referential(selecting a unit to fight would bring it right back to step 1 ad nauseam)

If you believe that step 1 is part of fighting and not just part of the fight phase, then the stratagem has satisfied step-1 for you, including the breaking of those basic rules with this special rule: you cannot select any other units to fight during the strategem's resolution; it is only the slain character that fights.

At the end of the day, this is an interpretation of the rule, not RAW. You have not been given specific permission to "fight even though this model has not charged or doesn't have enemy models within 1".

**Kommissar Kel**

You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.

There isn't.

Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight.

If the SM player chooses to fight as if it were their Fight phase; can they select any other units to fight?

No. The selected unit to Fight is the slain character. This is selected regardless of whether he is eligible to be selected.

And once again. Look at the very last line of Step 1: "A fight is resolved in the following steps:"

See that colon at the end of the last word? That means the steps that follow that colon are the steps of a fight in the Fight phase, after you have determined which units are eligible to fight.

So in summary: the Strategem selects the character to fight(whether he would be eligible or not), then the fight is step 2-6. No matter how you look at it, the eligibility requirements in step 1 do not amd cannot apply here.

**Galef**

If you are looking at the Strat as replacing step 1, sure, I might agree.
The issue is that no one is agreeing that the Strat does jack for step 1, other than to take out the optional "selection" part.

The way it reads, the Strat allows you to break the normal sequence and follow the Fight phase steps.
Step 1 selects a unit that has either charged or is within 1" of an enemy. The Strat selects the character automatically, but then immediately stops as you aren't allowed to go further

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