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so, i was wondering if anybody feels the same, but with no news of vehicles (at least from what Ive read) i cant seem to get excited for kill team.

my 1st experience with 40k was heralds of ruin kill team (the official 7th edition killteam hadn't come out yet) and i had fun and it was a good foot into the hobby. the urban battlescapes were fun and my boyz were led by my mega armor bigmek backed by 2 nasty killa kanz. this would really grow my love for ork vehicles and my eventual dreaddmob. 40k for me is not defined by troops and infantry, they instead are the spice that surrounds the main dish of vehcles/walkers/monsters.

nowadays 40k has become more and more troop centric with a few broken vehicles mixed in. and it seems killteam is going the same route. heck, even killteam has very few options for every faction (no meganobz,no crisis suits, no bikes, very few jump infantry, nothing special!).

it seems killteam is just going to turn up to be "necomunda infantry combat...but for everyone"
it should've been fairly easy to add vehicles since they are pretty much tough infantry now (they could have a limit on vehicles based on their amount of wounds) .

maybe they will add an expansion that allows vehicles later, but right now i have no excitement for this game.

let me know what you guys think?
do you agree that killteam needs vehicles and more options in general?

Kill Team is one hundred points. That isn't even enough to fit a dreadnought.

One of the main pulls of Kill Team is that you can get a single infantry kit (or I guess two in the case of the armies with the cheapest bodies) and have enough dudes to play an army; this is great for new players as well as veterans looking to branch out without committing to 2000 points of stuff. There are a lot of mathematical reasons why vehicles wouldn't work in Kill Team, but for me the fact that it would diminish the accessibility of the game is more than enough reason to exclude them.

Kill team is 100 points. All but the very few cheapest vehicles (Sentinels with cheap guns, Rhinos with no upgrades, etc) are more than that, and transports are pointless if they don't have anything to transport. So no, I don't want to see vehicles in kill team.

I'm not in the slightest surprised there are no vehicles given how small the game is, and I strongly believe that is for the best.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Kill Team is one hundred points. That isn't even enough to fit a dreadnought.

One of the main pulls of Kill Team is that you can get a single infantry kit (or I guess two in the case of the armies with the cheapest bodies) and have enough dudes to play an army; this is great for new players as well as veterans looking to branch out without committing to 2000 points of stuff. There are a lot of mathematical reasons why vehicles wouldn't work in Kill Team, but for me the fact that it would diminish the accessibility of the game is more than enough reason to exclude them.

or they could make overpriced vehicles cheaper, they are dropping points acroos the board so you can fit more into 100pts, why not do this for the vehicles.

also what if i bought a box of meganobz and wanted to play them, nope, boy equivalents only,

geargutz wrote:
or they could make overpriced vehicles cheaper, they are dropping points acroos the board so you can fit more into 100pts, why not do this for the vehicles.

Ugh, no. The level of point drop that would be required to fit vehicles into kill team (remember, you need a full kill team, not just a single model) would result in them being ridiculously overpowered compared to infantry on top of creating miserable all or nothing games where the vehicle player either wins effortlessly because their opponent has no anti-tank weapons or loses on turn 1 because their opponent brought the counter list.

40k's roots are infantry with vehicle or two.

 Peregrine wrote:

geargutz wrote:
or they could make overpriced vehicles cheaper, they are dropping points acroos the board so you can fit more into 100pts, why not do this for the vehicles.

Ugh, no. The level of point drop that would be required to fit vehicles into kill team (remember, you need a full kill team, not just a single model) would result in them being ridiculously overpowered compared to infantry on top of creating miserable all or nothing games where the vehicle player either wins effortlessly because their opponent has no anti-tank weapons or loses on turn 1 because their opponent brought the counter list.

hmm, your right, vehicles are sooooooooo overpowered, thats why every tournament list is jam packed with them. ive heard 8th edition is the parking lot edition.

most vehicles are multi wound models with usually at most a 3plus armor save. soooo hard to kill. wait, isnt the 3plus save very common anyway with current killteam, arnt there actually many anti tank weapons, or cant you just rate of fire the vehicles to death since its toughness and save is not as good as it used to be from previous editions (what with any strength of weapon able to harm any toughness)?

now i acknowledge not all factions have access to cheap vehicles (even if you decrease their points by half) and so only a few factions would have vehicles available in killteam if i had it my way, but still those vehicles and special units make killteam varied and more interesting to play. if you had to fight imperial guard you're guaranteed to bring as many anti infantry weapons as possible because you at most would worry about a 4plus save (6plus if you fight orks). but if more vehicles and special units were allowed then you might have to anticipate a deadly heavy flamer sentinel to escort those squishy umies.

You're not looking at it in the context of a game of this scale though.

Do you genuinely think a game of 5 guys with Bolters Vs a Rhino would be fun?

I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Kill Team is one hundred points. That isn't even enough to fit a dreadnought.

One of the main pulls of Kill Team is that you can get a single infantry kit (or I guess two in the case of the armies with the cheapest bodies) and have enough dudes to play an army; this is great for new players as well as veterans looking to branch out without committing to 2000 points of stuff. There are a lot of mathematical reasons why vehicles wouldn't work in Kill Team, but for me the fact that it would diminish the accessibility of the game is more than enough reason to exclude them.

I don't know 100pts seems kind of a low for some armies. I get that they wanted to lower the number of models for the swarm lists and lists with good options, so that people wouldn't spam them. But for GK 100pts is 5 dudes. They die like normal non primaris marines, they technicly have psychic powers and good melee weapons, but against a good list they will never reach melee. Objectives also seem to be a huge problem, single dead dude and the game is done. And a single dead GK vs eldar or plasma heavy IG is super easy to achive.

Stux wrote:
You're not looking at it in the context of a game of this scale though.

Do you genuinely think a game of 5 guys with Bolters Vs a Rhino would be fun?

even at a decrease in points a transport might not be that useful so we might not see them anyway
, but 5 guys with pwerfists vrs 2 kilakans sounds fun.

fun can be subjective, if you fight imperial knights in standard 40k then its 5 models vrs possibly hundreds. is that less fun then 10 guys vrs maybe 20 guys?

also its the narrative that can make a game funs.
lets say that rhino had explosives and was doing a suicide charge and all that stands between it and the supply cache is 5 brave men with bolters.

geargutz wrote:
hmm, your right, vehicles are sooooooooo overpowered, thats why every tournament list is jam packed with them. ive heard 8th edition is the parking lot edition.

Normal 8th edition games are not played at 100 points, where access to special/heavy weapons is limited and you can't fit both redundant anti-tank and redundant anti-horde. And normal 8th edition games are not played with tanks that cost 25% of their current cost because you had to give them a massive price reduction to fit into a 100 point game. If a LRBT cost 30-50 points instead of 150-200 points parking lots would be dominating.

most vehicles are multi wound models with usually at most a 3plus armor save. soooo hard to kill.

T7/8 makes a huge difference, especially when -1 penalties are everywhere (remember, cover is much easier to get in kill team). So you would very often need 6s to hit, 6s to wound, and have to deal 10+ wounds to kill a tank. Sure, you might have a single lascannon or equivalent instead of those bolters/lasguns/etc, but that still depends on getting good dice with your one shot before the tank kills your single threat.


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geargutz wrote:
also its the narrative that can make a game funs.
lets say that rhino had explosives and was doing a suicide charge and all that stands between it and the supply cache is 5 brave men with bolters.

That might be fun, maybe, but only once at most. Come up with whatever fluff you want, but the reality is going to be the 5 models with bolters fishing for 6s and hoping to RNG a win. The tactics involved would be limited at best and the winner would be almost entirely decided by the dice. At that point why even bother with models and rules and such? Just put your Rhino on the table and roll dice until you get tired of rolling dice.

phillv85 wrote:
I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.

if you fight primaris marines wouldn't you want to bring multi wound high ap weapns anyway?

maybe your all thinking with 7th edition in mind? the vehicle damage table doesn't exist any more. the difference between a primaris marine and a killakan is 3 extra wounds and 1 more toughness.

If you want to play vehicles in 40k...then perhaps play 40k with some vehicles?

The entire point of Kill Team is to represent the really small scale skirmishes between groups of individuals where the minor details of such an engagement can really be explored as opposed to streamlined for ease of play when there are potentially hundreds of models a side.

There's nothing stopping you playing a low points level 40k game that is still high enough to allow for some vehicles (say, 500-750pts), but that categorically is not what Kill Team is supposed to be.

geargutz wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.

if you fight primaris marines wouldn't you want to bring multi wound high ap weapns anyway?

maybe your all thinking with 7th edition in mind? the vehicle damage table doesn't exist any more. the difference between a primaris marine and a killakan is 3 extra wounds and 1 more toughness.

I don't think you realise how hard it is for small arms to deal with higher wounds and toughness in 8e. It takes an average of 70 shots from a Bolter wielded by a Marine to take down a Killa Kan.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
If you want to play vehicles in 40k...then perhaps play 40k with some vehicles?

The entire point of Kill Team is to represent the really small scale skirmishes between groups of individuals where the minor details of such an engagement can really be explored as opposed to streamlined for ease of play when there are potentially hundreds of models a side.

There's nothing stopping you playing a low points level 40k game that is still high enough to allow for some vehicles (say, 500-750pts), but that categorically is not what Kill Team is supposed to be.

hmm, if killteam in the past (not talking about heralds of ruin, but official killteam from gw) allowed vehicles and other special infantry with enough pts to allow those things, then what makes this version killteam. they've taken the name but not much else. maybe they should've named it shadow war (seems like its following shadow war Armageddons template, which is like necromunda for all 40k races, but with very few option for lists).

yeah, but that is why the real basic weapons are not bolters. It is stuff like plasma guns, reaper launchers, all those weapons DE have. A bolter marine is more or less a wound counter or a bullet sponge.

Stux wrote:

geargutz wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.

if you fight primaris marines wouldn't you want to bring multi wound high ap weapns anyway?

maybe your all thinking with 7th edition in mind? the vehicle damage table doesn't exist any more. the difference between a primaris marine and a killakan is 3 extra wounds and 1 more toughness.

I don't think you realise how hard it is for small arms to deal with higher wounds and toughness in 8e. It takes an average of 70 shots from a Bolter wielded by a Marine to take down a Killa Kan.

so bring a plasma pistol, a krak grenade, a melta gun. at this point you sound like your just complaining that you dont want to bring more varied wpns in your killtem. "i onlyt need bolters to win games of killteam,!"

Considering that many Kill Teams have little in the way of high strength/high AP/high damage weapons (most Space Marine Kill Teams will only have one or two special/heavy weapons, and if they're Primaris, absolutely none), adding vehicles is problematic. When Kill Team has been advertised as skirmish combat for infantry, adding vehicles would break the intended game. In the same respect, I'd be annoyed if infantry were the focus in something like the old Spearhead expansion, which was all about tanks.

Adding in the fact that they're often too expensive, and dropping their points without nerfing the vehicles themselves is vile in terms of balanced game design, vehicles just are not built for Kill Team.

The only ones I can imagine being viable in the future would be Sentinels and maybe a single Killa Kan. However, those models would need to be nerfed to be less durable to small arms fire, and more vulnerable in close combat.

Just adding vehicles and reducing their points without affecting their rules is horrifically bad for balance.

If you like vehicles so much, have you considered playing small 500 point games instead against an opponent who's willing?

I don't want to have to fill my team with expensive anti tank just on the off chance the opponent brings a vehicle though!

That's the whole issue here. It's squad level compat.

Stux wrote:
I don't want to have to fill my team with expensive anti tank just on the off chance the opponent brings a vehicle though!

That's the whole issue here. It's squad level compat.

a squad has never dealt with a vehicle before in the history of 40k, heck the history of war?
a squad has never brought along an antitank weapon in case of the off chance of dealing with heavy armor?
adding larger models adds a new type of dimension to the game.
add more variety
killteam currently has very little options. some factions seem to only have 1 type of model (you poor harlequin players).

in the end im not only disaponted there are not vehicles, im also dispointed of the lack of other iconic models.

theoretically if i wanted to play whitescars, then what are my lore friendly whitescar options? man, i cant wait to play foot sloggin whitescars.

geargutz wrote:

Stux wrote:
I don't want to have to fill my team with expensive anti tank just on the off chance the opponent brings a vehicle though!

That's the whole issue here. It's squad level compat.

a squad has never dealt with a vehicle before in the history of 40k, heck the history of war?
a squad has never brought along an antitank weapon in case of the off chance of dealing with heavy armor?
adding larger models adds a new type of dimension to the game.
add more variety
killteam currently has very little options. some factions seem to only have 1 type of model (you poor harlequin players).

Of course they have, but the mechanics of the game proclude this from being practical in Kill Team.

If you want to make a scenario mission around a vehicle then that could be cool, but allowing a team to take vehicles in the game as it stands simply wouldn't work.

It just sounds like you want it to be a different game, which is fine, no game is for everyone. But it seems most people are happy with the scope that GW have decided this time.

many keep saying "anti tank wpns are too expensive"
or "vehicles with cover would be too hard to kill"

so far it seems killteam is not beholden to the pts or rules of normal 40k. the killteam guys could've reworks points to make vehicles more available and also the weapon that would take them out cheaper and more common.
they could make it so that the battlefield would make a vehicle not as useful as a man in cover. it would take a lot of cover to conceal a vehicle, maybe a 50 to 75% rule.

these guys could've done alot of things, but in the end they seem to only want to rerelease shadowwar. im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.
i played killteam that had options back in the day. what i see disappoints me. if your satisfied with playing yet another necromunda game then good for you.
maybe im a minority here. but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.

The game doesn't even have Terminators or Custodes in because in the current ruleset they are deemed too difficult to kill. So vehicles are way out.

Is it possible we'll see more further down the line? Sure. I don't think we'll ever get tanks, but Crisis, Sentinels, and MAYBE Killakans aren't totally impossible. I totally understand them being cautious and getting the infantry right for now though.

If you let me take a vehicle, I’m bringing a Taurox Prime with a Gatling Cannon. That’s 20 shots, plus the eight shots from my combined hot-shot volley guns. That’s gonna at least be two to three dead people, probably specialists. And, in most games, the Killteam is now at half models and is breaking, possibly losing, on turn one.

geargutz wrote:
a squad has never dealt with a vehicle before in the history of 40k, heck the history of war?

Either they had anti-tank weapons (which I'll detail below) or were lucky, in an imblanaced situation.

Without nerfing the vehicles in some respect (such as bringing back firing arcs, limiting their maneuverability in dealing with multiple small targets, and making them considerably weaker to small arms fire and melee), they would not allow for balanced gameplay, which is what Kill Team's devs are working for.

a squad has never brought along an antitank weapon in case of the off chance of dealing with heavy armor?

When heavy armour isn't expected in the battlefield? Absolutely not. And if it is, Kill Team only permits for a small handful of such weapons (with some armies not having any at all - see any all-Primaris list), the bearers of which can be targeted out and creating an event larger imbalance.*

*Yes, I'm aware that anti-infantry weapons can also be taken out, making killing infantry harder. However, given that small arms weapons are already decent at infantry killing, the loss of power isn't that drastic.

adding larger models adds a new type of dimension to the game.

In a game which doesn't ask for new dimensions. You want that dimension? It already exists - 40k.

That would be like saying "I want battleship-to-ship warfare in regular 40k!" You can just play Battlefleet Gothic instead. Kill Team isn't about vehicles. It's about infantry.

add more variety

Variety at the expense of balance? No thank you.

Adding flyers into Kill Team adds variety. But it's not the point of what Kill Team is trying to be.
Adding power swords into the options of what Devastators can take adds variety. It's still a poor option on a unit which is encouraged to shoot.

killteam currently has very little options. some factions seem to only have 1 type of model (you poor harlequin players).

Because that's the kind of balance they're after. For a balanced game, they don't want models that are too tough to kill (Terminators, vehicles) and don't want things moving too fast (bikes, jump packs, etc etc).

Not to mention that Harlequins essentially only have one infantry unit anyway - were you really surprised that a game about infantry combat would meant that the faction with one infantry unit only got one unit?

in the end im not only disaponted there are not vehicles, im also dispointed of the lack of other iconic models.

theoretically if i wanted to play whitescars, then what are my lore friendly whitescar options? man, i cant wait to play foot sloggin whitescars.

White Scars have over 80 footslogging Marines in each Battle Company. They're not all "BIKEBIKEBIKE" as their flanderisation in the lore implies, no more so than Goffs never having Kommandos and Snakebites never having Flash Gitz. Whilst the Scars are all trained to fight on bikes, this harsh terrain and lack of support in the local area has meant that they must abandon their mounts to fight more effectively.

Consider that Narrative Forged!


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geargutz wrote:
these guys could've done alot of things, but in the end they seem to only want to rerelease shadowwar. im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.

And that's okay. You're allowed preferences. However, you're trying to turn something that has a different design philosophy from what you want from a game into something it's not meant to be.

40k is what you want - a small points game of 40k with lots of vehicles.

i played killteam that had options back in the day. what i see disappoints me. if your satisfied with playing yet another necromunda game then good for you.

Back in the day Kill Teams could be horrifically broken because of things like vehicles and 2+ saves. Sincerely, someone who had to play against Riptides twice during a casual Kill Team event.

Bringing the focus to infantry brings in a different crowd of people than that of normal 40k. Normal 40k appeals to you - wonderful! Kill Team appeals to people who don't want the vehicles, tanky units, etc etc of normal 40k and focuses on infantry. And that's fine for them.

"Yet another Necromunda game" isn't really true. Sure, they're infantry focused, but Necro is about gang warfare, and doesn't feature the infantry in other factions. Kill Team does, and in that respect, is it;s own niche.

Otherwise, you could argue "40k has tanks and big formations of heavy units, so it's basically the same as Epic, if you're satisfied with playing yet another Epic game, good for you."

maybe im a minority here. but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.

Yeah, exactly - 40k has vehicles, bikers and meganobz. Kill Team =/= 40k.

Not sure if this is a troll thread, but the appeal of Kill Team is specifically the lack of monsters, vehicles, and tough elite options like terminators or dark reapers etc. Few options per army make it easy to balance and cheap to build your teams which are both strong selling points for the game imo. Sounds like the OP thinks this is supposed to be normal 40k with fewer points or something... In fact I'm super pleased that it's not.

geargutz wrote:

hmm, your right, vehicles are sooooooooo overpowered, thats why every tournament list is jam packed with them. ive heard 8th edition is the parking lot edition.

Sigh.

Have you actually stopped to consider what's involved in killing a vehicle with the limited number of weapons available in kill team?

At BS3+ with no modifiers to have a 75% chance of reducing a dread to zero wounds (which doesn't actually kill it in kill team) you need:
12 krak missile shots (76.6%)
6 short range melta shots (75.9%)
13 overcharged plasmagun shots (77.1%)

Now add in the to hit modifiers that are everywhere and you create a condition where anyone not spamming anti weapons simply can't touch it.

If you want kill team whit vehicles, you might aswell just play standard 40k whit a max point limit of 500p on a 4x4 table....