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Hey Sigmar dakka dakkites,

So I picked up these beautiful models this afternoon. I've never actually played the game (I play 40k only so far) but these guys just look so awesome I had to pick them up. I will eventually try to play with them though and I want to make sure I don't army them wrong (magnatizing doesn't really seem like an option with them.)

It seems they have some daemon blades / spears / axes / swords / hammers. What should I arm them with?

I think that would depend on the rest of your future army, or whatever role you want them to play. Personally i would give them the overall most powerful weapons, whatever they are, because theyre too elite and badass looking to not have the best options. (I dont play aos either)

Well I totally agree with that. I want them to have the best weapons. I want them to be the workhorses (haha) for my army. I have no way of knowing what is best though because I have never played the game.

They are a cavalry unit but they aren't there to charge and run. With that many wounds and a 3+ save they are more like tanks than a shock cavalry unit. They will remain in combat a while.

So Fellspears are discarded. Then your option is between Ensorcelled Weapons and Daemonforged Blades. I haven't ran the math, but I believe Ensorcelled Weapons are just better all around. The possibility of a MW is good but the to wound roll is worse if you don't roll a 6 to hit (I don't know exactly if Varanguard have access to +1 to hit. That could change this but I think they don't), and then you can take a Mortal Wound if you roll a 1. And then you have 6 attacks vs 4.

But to be honest I would build them with the weapons you find better looking and they say they have whatever do you want. Most people don't even know what weapon is what with this kit. It is really expensive so not that many people have it.

Is there a difference between the ensorcelled weapons?

I don't have the kit so I can't tell you what weapon is wich

I am just gonna build with the daamon swords because they look the coolest. In my mind they look kind of like ring wraiths...except in huge chaos armor without caps. I imagine they have swords.

Varanguard work well. Mine have the ensorcelled weapons. I think the daemon weapons are the worse of the 3 options despite looking the best. The fellspears can work, especially because they do more damage on the charge. Activate their double pile in and attack on the turn they charge their target and they can plow through some stuff.

Good thing is, you can use the better looking daemon weapons and just SAY they are the ensorcered weapons.

My advise with them is don't run them. They are the rubrics of AoS

Beautiful models with horrible rules and point cost.

Give em those 6 attack weapons, because using that once per game rule where they attack again with so many attacks is too good to pass up.

Galas summed it up pretty well, but I'll jump in and say I recommend the Ensorcelled Weapons. Most units rarely get to make more than one charge in a standard game, so I don't find "on the charge" bonuses to be that useful if you have other options. Varanguard have a slight advantage since they can pile in and attack twice on the turn they charge, but I'd still rather go with the other weapons. Daemon Weapons are a high risk/high reward choice, with a chance to do a MW to either yourself or your opponent, but I'd rather go with more attacks with a better chance to wound. Also rules-wise, there is no difference in axes versus swords, etc. They all count as Ensorcelled Weapons. Just choose the ones you like the best.

Auticus also has a good point. Varanguard aren't very points-efficient, so I wouldn't use them in a tournament list. They're still some of the best looking models in the entire game, though, IMO, so if you're like me and just play casual/fun/fluffy games, they work just fine.

 EnTyme wrote:
Galas summed it up pretty well, but I'll jump in and say I recommend the Ensorcelled Weapons. Most units rarely get to make more than one charge in a standard game, so I don't find "on the charge" bonuses to be that useful if you have other options. Varanguard have a slight advantage since they can pile in and attack twice on the turn they charge, but I'd still rather go with the other weapons. Daemon Weapons are a high risk/high reward choice, with a chance to do a MW to either yourself or your opponent, but I'd rather go with more attacks with a better chance to wound. Also rules-wise, there is no difference in axes versus swords, etc. They all count as Ensorcelled Weapons. Just choose the ones you like the best.

Auticus also has a good point. Varanguard aren't very points-efficient, so I wouldn't use them in a tournament list. They're still some of the best looking models in the entire game, though, IMO, so if you're like me and just play casual/fun/fluffy games, they work just fine.

To also add they are not money effective either. They at 100 bucks for 3 models. Our GW store has only ever sold 1 box of them since AoS launch, and that was to an employee who got it at a 50% discount because he worked there. Beautiful models, WAY over priced.

I've had opposite experiences with them. They are very sturdy and reliable damage output. I use the ensorcelled weapons. They are a favorite for demonic power from a sorcerer lord. And if you use realm rules, give them the +1 damage spell in the realm of fire and watch them murder their way across the table.

Thanks for all the responses peoples.

A friend of mine basically told me the same thing - they aren't very good units (mostly because they cost too much). He is going to teach me to play the game.

He recommend to me that I just play them as Choas lords - because in the lore that is what they actually are anyways. So - I have built them all and painted one. I have never really been so happy with a model so it's all good anyways.

If you are new to the game, I would suggest that if playing choas get chaos warriors, they are an amazing unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of if not the best battle line troops for chaos

I second Backspacehacker's suggestion. A 20-man unit of warriors is borderline unmoveable. There's a reason I use them for my 60-wound Archaon list.

I picked up the start collecting box with 2 chariots and knights. I will get some warriors too I am sure.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I picked up the start collecting box with 2 chariots and knights. I will get some warriors too I am sure.

Knights are pretty good as well. Honestly most of the StD line is SUPER under rated. The sorcerer on manticore has a brutal spell as well.

The strat I have is I run 40 warriors in 2 blobs and run them rank and file, sword and board up front, halbard and board in the back. You also take a warshrine and make them all tzeentzch, and on your turn bless the front row.

You now have a wall of 40 wounds that have a 4+ rerollable, and anyone dumb enough to charge it gets hit with the front row AND the halbards poke over the top because of a 2" range. If you combo them with deciplea of tzeentzch, which you can because you can give them the tzeentzch keyword before the battle, you use them as a tarpit then have tzeentzch hero's blasting them with magic in the back. The only thing that gets you is mobility which in 2500 points those knight make for great objective capers

 Xenomancers wrote:
I picked up the start collecting box with 2 chariots and knights. I will get some warriors too I am sure.

I recommend two Start Collecting: Slaves to Darkness kits and a box of Warriors. This gives you two Chariots, ten Knights, two Sorcerer Lords, and 40 Warriors. Add in a Chaos Warshrine and maybe a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (the kit lets you build both and swap out whenever you want). Apply the mark of the god of your choosing. It's a very solid starting army for only a couple hundred bucks.

 EnTyme wrote:
I second Backspacehacker's suggestion. A 20-man unit of warriors is borderline unmoveable. There's a reason I use them for my 60-wound Archaon list.

How does that work?

Make a Tzeentch list and give Archaon Treacherous Bond . Have him cast it on the Warrior blob every turn, and he effectively has 60 wounds with two chances to save damage (and a 5+ against Mortal Wounds). Just for good measure, I run him alongside a Tzeentch Daemon Prince general with Ethereal Weapons and Incorporeal Form. It's not a tournament-winning list, but it's something I like to roll out against people who bring tournament lists to casual games. It's frustrating to play against.

 EnTyme wrote:
Make a Tzeentch list and give Archaon Treacherous Bond . Have him cast it on the Warrior blob every turn, and he effectively has 60 wounds with two chances to save damage (and a 5+ against Mortal Wounds). Just for good measure, I run him alongside a Tzeentch Daemon Prince general with Ethereal Weapons and Incorporeal Form. It's not a tournament-winning list, but it's something I like to roll out against people who bring tournament lists to casual games. It's frustrating to play against.

So you'd suggest running as grand alliance? Not as ever chosen?
What unit has treacherous bond?


So I have 32 warriors 5 knights and a manticore lord. I really want a chaos shrines next. What else should I get? 10 more knights?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Make a Tzeentch list and give Archaon Treacherous Bond . Have him cast it on the Warrior blob every turn, and he effectively has 60 wounds with two chances to save damage (and a 5+ against Mortal Wounds). Just for good measure, I run him alongside a Tzeentch Daemon Prince general with Ethereal Weapons and Incorporeal Form. It's not a tournament-winning list, but it's something I like to roll out against people who bring tournament lists to casual games. It's frustrating to play against.

So you'd suggest running as grand alliance? Not as ever chosen?
What unit has treacherous bond?


So I have 32 warriors 5 knights and a manticore lord. I really want a chaos shrines next. What else should I get? 10 more knights?

No. Run as Tzeentch. Everything in Slaves to Darkness can be given a Mark of Chaos, as can a Daemon Prince. The StD (did GW seriously not realize that would be the acronym?) allegiance isn't as good as the god-specific ones, so I always give them a mark and run a God allegiance, typically Tzeentch since I like the spells. Hopefully one day, GW will allow Varanguard to be marked before the battle so they can be used in god-specific armies without being taken as allies. As far as what to get, I strongly suggest that anyone interested in Chaos mortals buy Start Collecting Slaves to Darkness. That'll up you to 44 warriors and 10 knights and give you a Sorceror Lord and a chariot. I prefer Gorebeast myself. It makes a really good distraction carnifex. I started my army by buying two SC kits, a Manticore Lord (usually run as Sorceror Lord), a Warshrine and a box of Warriors.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Make a Tzeentch list and give Archaon Treacherous Bond . Have him cast it on the Warrior blob every turn, and he effectively has 60 wounds with two chances to save damage (and a 5+ against Mortal Wounds). Just for good measure, I run him alongside a Tzeentch Daemon Prince general with Ethereal Weapons and Incorporeal Form. It's not a tournament-winning list, but it's something I like to roll out against people who bring tournament lists to casual games. It's frustrating to play against.

So you'd suggest running as grand alliance? Not as ever chosen?
What unit has treacherous bond?


So I have 32 warriors 5 knights and a manticore lord. I really want a chaos shrines next. What else should I get? 10 more knights?

No. Run as Tzeentch. Everything in Slaves to Darkness can be given a Mark of Chaos, as can a Daemon Prince. The StD (did GW seriously not realize that would be the acronym?) allegiance isn't as good as the god-specific ones, so I always give them a mark and run a God allegiance, typically Tzeentch since I like the spells. Hopefully one day, GW will allow Varanguard to be marked before the battle so they can be used in god-specific armies without being taken as allies. As far as what to get, I strongly suggest that anyone interested in Chaos mortals buy Start Collecting Slaves to Darkness. That'll up you to 44 warriors and 10 knights and give you a Sorceror Lord and a chariot. I prefer Gorebeast myself. It makes a really good distraction carnifex. I started my army by buying two SC kits, a Manticore Lord (usually run as Sorceror Lord), a Warshrine and a box of Warriors.

Okay - help me understand something.

How can I take archaon and choas warriors in the same army. I am only allowed 400 points of allies right? The only way to take archaon is with everchosen main army right?

Simple. Your army's allegiance can be any keyword that every unit has in common. Technically, your army allegiance could be Mortal, it just wouldn't give any real benefit. Archaon has the keyword for all 4 chaos gods, so he can be in any army with the god's allegiance. If you give all the Slaves to Darkness models the Mark of Tzeentch (giving them the Tzeentch keyword), you can choose to have the Tzeentch allegiance. Archaon also has the Tzeentch keyword, so he doesn't break the allegiance. You only have to use ally points for units that do not have the keyword of you allegiance.

 EnTyme wrote:
Simple. Your army's allegiance can be any keyword that every unit has in common. Technically, your army allegiance could be Mortal, it just wouldn't give any real benefit. Archaon has the keyword for all 4 chaos gods, so he can be in any army with the god's allegiance. If you give all the Slaves to Darkness models the Mark of Tzeentch (giving them the Tzeentch keyword), you can choose to have the Tzeentch allegiance. Archaon also has the Tzeentch keyword, so he doesn't break the allegiance. You only have to use ally points for units that do not have the keyword of you allegiance.

I thought that is how it works - but players who were teaching me to play said it didn't work that way. They said I would have to run under the generals handbook choas aliance - which would mean I wouldn't get access to any STD rules but the general rules that were in the handbook. I am not doubting you - what is this 400 points only for allies though? If I can just take any units that share the same keyword as my aliegence - why would there be this 400 points limit for allies? You can't ally accross without a shared keyword anyways.

Allies are actually specific keywords that each allegiance can bring along. Look at the match play profiles section of GHB and it'll list what keywords can be taken as allies, but keep in mind that you don't have to use ally points if that unit has your allegiance keyword. That's why even though Everchosen are an ally option for Tzeentch, Archaon doesn't use ally points since he has the Tzeentch keyword.

Also, it's not just a flat 400 ally points. The number of points you can spend on allies depends on the size of the game and is basically 20% of the total points spent on the army.

 EnTyme wrote:
Make a Tzeentch list and give Archaon Treacherous Bond . Have him cast it on the Warrior blob every turn, and he effectively has 60 wounds with two chances to save damage (and a 5+ against Mortal Wounds). Just for good measure, I run him alongside a Tzeentch Daemon Prince general with Ethereal Weapons and Incorporeal Form. It's not a tournament-winning list, but it's something I like to roll out against people who bring tournament lists to casual games. It's frustrating to play against.

How do I give archaon treacherous bond? That spell is not listed on his wartome.