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Made in vn
Dakka Veteran




The complaint right now is how useless the Conscripts are compared to Guardsman. So how about bringing the Guardsmen to 5 points per model and give them some special rule? What in hell do Ork Boyz cost 6 pts per model? They should be overwhelming the Guards with sheer number, not the other way around.
   
Made in us
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I think Guardsmen at 5 with no other changes to them and boyz at 6 is pretty fair. This is from someone who plays both armies

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You never know when that leman russ will punch you back

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




A lot of people are for 5pt guardsmen, including guard players. However, as is expected, there are many who think 4pt guard is fine.
Kanluwen should be along shortly to tell you why 5pt guard is bad.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






bibotot wrote:
What in hell do Ork Boyz cost 6 pts per model? They should be overwhelming the Guards with sheer number, not the other way around.


Then you'll need to buff IG stats, because currently that 4-point guardsman is worse than the ork at everything except the 5+ armor save (remember, the ork has a better gun to offset BS 5+). If boyz are overwhelming them with numbers they'd have to be more like space marine level in stats to justify a 10-15 ppm cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 04:04:24


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Peregrine wrote:
bibotot wrote:
What in hell do Ork Boyz cost 6 pts per model? They should be overwhelming the Guards with sheer number, not the other way around.


Then you'll need to buff IG stats, because currently that 4-point guardsman is worse than the ork at everything except the 5+ armor save (remember, the ork has a better gun to offset BS 5+). If boyz are overwhelming them with numbers they'd have to be more like space marine level in stats to justify a 10-15 ppm cost.

Well that or give everything (that isn't a Marine ) a points bump to fix the issue.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

If comparison to orks is your reasoning, how about you just wait until the codex comes out first?

5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

 Colonel Cross wrote:
If comparison to orks is your reasoning, how about you just wait until the codex comes out first?

Yeah, it's hard to say what position Boyz will be in when the Codex drops. Maybe they'll get a lot better. Maybe they'll go up in points. Maybe both. Maybe neither.


As far as Orks overwhelming Guard through numbers, I never thought a Guardsman was supposed to be significantly better than your average Ork Boy. Better at certain things, yes, but not better overall. I always figured a trained "normal" human soldier and an Ork Boy were roughly evenly matched.

The Orks often overwhelm the Guard through numbers in the novels, but that's because they're frequently conducting frontal assaults on fortified positions. In game terms that would be like the Imperium side having as many points in fortifications as regular models.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
 Colonel Cross wrote:
If comparison to orks is your reasoning, how about you just wait until the codex comes out first?

Yeah, it's hard to say what position Boyz will be in when the Codex drops. Maybe they'll get a lot better. Maybe they'll go up in points. Maybe both. Maybe neither.


As far as Orks overwhelming Guard through numbers, I never thought a Guardsman was supposed to be significantly better than your average Ork Boy. Better at certain things, yes, but not better overall. I always figured a trained "normal" human soldier and an Ork Boy were roughly evenly matched.

The Orks often overwhelm the Guard through numbers in the novels, but that's because they're frequently conducting frontal assaults on fortified positions. In game terms that would be like the Imperium side having as many points in fortifications as regular models.


keep in mind if we pointed by commonality in the novels a Necron warrior would be Imperial Guardsman cheap

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

I thought we were talking about pointing them based on effectiveness, and having the effectiveness be somewhat inline with what it is in the fluff. If we're talking about pointing them based on how common they are in-universe I'm going to have to wheel around a big 55 gallon drum full of .001 point greenskins and use a shovel to speed up deployment.

Insert standard caveat about how points have to be somewhat flattened for the sake of gameplay because if every Space Marine was like they are in the books they'd individually be Lords of War. (I do wish regular Space Marines had a more elite stat line though.)

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in jp
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Something to keep in mind is ig army and ig soup. Point up doesn#t really hurt soup that much but that's how ig is effectively run. Pure ig, already mid pack, would be massacred.

Problem is in soup. Fix that rather than gw style bandaid and ignore real problem like the stupid max 3 datasheet one

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
 Colonel Cross wrote:
If comparison to orks is your reasoning, how about you just wait until the codex comes out first?

Yeah, it's hard to say what position Boyz will be in when the Codex drops. Maybe they'll get a lot better. Maybe they'll go up in points. Maybe both. Maybe neither.


As far as Orks overwhelming Guard through numbers, I never thought a Guardsman was supposed to be significantly better than your average Ork Boy. Better at certain things, yes, but not better overall. I always figured a trained "normal" human soldier and an Ork Boy were roughly evenly matched.

The Orks often overwhelm the Guard through numbers in the novels, but that's because they're frequently conducting frontal assaults on fortified positions. In game terms that would be like the Imperium side having as many points in fortifications as regular models.

Exactly - Orks overwhelm guard with numbers because there are lots of orks and they tend to mass for assaults, not because one guardsman is significantly better than one ork which is what would need to be the case if that numerical superiority was to be reflected in points.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I play my friend often and he brings tau fire warriors shooting str5 30" and with buff giving 3 shots at 15" for 7 points per model. if my guard went up to 5 points... you gotta be kidding.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

tneva82 wrote:
Something to keep in mind is ig army and ig soup. Point up doesn#t really hurt soup that much but that's how ig is effectively run. Pure ig, already mid pack, would be massacred.

Problem is in soup. Fix that rather than gw style bandaid and ignore real problem like the stupid max 3 datasheet one


Thus is just plain wrong, by math (Theres no point efficient way to kill guardsmen) and by analisis of the meta: Guard is the third strongest monofaction of the game after Drukhari and CWE.
All Imperial Soup armies NEED the guard cp farm to work. Remove it and Soup will die, and Guard will go up again because there would bee no more Imperial or Chaos soup to have it check in place.

Guard infantry should go to 5ppm, Firewarriors and Skitarii Rangers to 8ppm, and Kabalites and Ork boyz post codex (unless their sinergies are nerfed some other way) should be 7ppm.
And make Necron Warriors 10ppm with BS4+ now that you are at it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/04 10:18:43


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nemesis234 wrote:
I play my friend often and he brings tau fire warriors shooting str5 30" and with buff giving 3 shots at 15" for 7 points per model. if my guard went up to 5 points... you gotta be kidding.

That buff is from a basically mandatory 42pt charictor for a faction that doesn't have soup options. They also have no CC ability at all, Tau should be outshooting guardsmen as they will loose to guardsmen in CC.
Also Tau and Admech are still placing behind mono guard at tournaments
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






 Galas wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Something to keep in mind is ig army and ig soup. Point up doesn#t really hurt soup that much but that's how ig is effectively run. Pure ig, already mid pack, would be massacred.

Problem is in soup. Fix that rather than gw style bandaid and ignore real problem like the stupid max 3 datasheet one


Thus is just plain wrong, by math (Theres no point efficient way to kill guardsmen) and by analisis of the meta: Guard is the third strongest monofaction of the game after Drukhari and CWE.
All Imperial Soup armies NEED the guard cp farm to work. Remove it and Soup will die, and Guard will go up again because there would bee no more Imperial or Chaos soup to have it check in place.

Guard infantry should go to 5ppm, Firewarriors and Skitarii Rangers to 8ppm, and Kabalites and Ork boyz post codex (unless their sinergies are nerfed some other way) should be 7ppm.
And make Necron Warriors 10ppm with BS4+ now that you are at it.


Was gonna chime in to say this but you beat me to it. Most of the other bottom end units need a look over on their points, not just Guardsmen. Changing one but not the others just removes an item from the choices of what to spam, much like how Conscripts disappeared overnight after getting nerfed. If Guardsmen get nerfed enough without say Skitarii seeing it, you'll just start seeing units of Skitarii escorting a single Enginseer on every battlefield for a 145 point Battalion.

Its the problem with 8th that after the initial indices, most codices have seen points drop, bringing us back to a race to the bottom.
   
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kurhanik wrote:

Was gonna chime in to say this but you beat me to it. Most of the other bottom end units need a look over on their points, not just Guardsmen. Changing one but not the others just removes an item from the choices of what to spam, much like how Conscripts disappeared overnight after getting nerfed. If Guardsmen get nerfed enough without say Skitarii seeing it, you'll just start seeing units of Skitarii escorting a single Enginseer on every battlefield for a 145 point Battalion.

Its the problem with 8th that after the initial indices, most codices have seen points drop, bringing us back to a race to the bottom.

A battalion is 2HQs and 3 troops. Minimum cost for a skitarii battalion is 199 points. 2x 47 for the enginseers and 3x35 for the three groups of 5 basic rangers. Even if guardsmen went up a point each that battalion would probably be better in most instances since they get so much more board control (32 bodies rather than 17). But as someone who plays skitarii I wouldn't be heartbroken if they went up a point I guess.
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




tneva82 wrote:
Something to keep in mind is ig army and ig soup. Point up doesn#t really hurt soup that much but that's how ig is effectively run. Pure ig, already mid pack, would be massacred.

Problem is in soup. Fix that rather than gw style bandaid and ignore real problem like the stupid max 3 datasheet one


Pure IG middle of the pack? They were the best army both taken standalone and in soup context from ITC July 2018 Rankings....pfffff
   
Made in au
Drone without a Controller





Dandelion wrote:A lot of people are for 5pt guardsmen, including guard players. However, as is expected, there are many who think 4pt guard is fine.
Kanluwen should be along shortly to tell you why 5pt guard is bad.

That guy argued himself into a corner in the last thread he tried that in and then basically stopped responding. If he restarts it in here instead of responding to the counter arguments he'd already been given, then he should probably be infracted for just trolling at that point.


Ice_can wrote:
Nemesis234 wrote:
I play my friend often and he brings tau fire warriors shooting str5 30" and with buff giving 3 shots at 15" for 7 points per model. if my guard went up to 5 points... you gotta be kidding.

That buff is from a basically mandatory 42pt charictor for a faction that doesn't have soup options. They also have no CC ability at all, Tau should be outshooting guardsmen as they will loose to guardsmen in CC.
Also Tau and Admech are still placing behind mono guard at tournaments


This. Looking at the army as a whole, AM does not need 4 pt Guardsmen. Hell, us Tau might not even need 7 pt Firewarriors, but lets take this step at a time.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
bibotot wrote:
What in hell do Ork Boyz cost 6 pts per model? They should be overwhelming the Guards with sheer number, not the other way around.


Then you'll need to buff IG stats, because currently that 4-point guardsman is worse than the ork at everything except the 5+ armor save (remember, the ork has a better gun to offset BS 5+). If boyz are overwhelming them with numbers they'd have to be more like space marine level in stats to justify a 10-15 ppm cost.


I'm sorry, a 18' range assault 2 S4 weapon is better then a range 24 S3 weapon? yeah I mean in a complete vacuum it is, right up until you realize IG get a number of shooting buffs and orkz get exactly zero.

30 Boyz at range 18 get 60 shots, 20 hits and against IG get about 13 wounds, IG get a 5+ save and you end up with 8-9 dead guard. IG at 24 get 45 shots, 22.5 hits and 7 wounds for 6 dead Orkz, add in the orders and shooting buffs and it gets even more lopsided really quickly. But yeah, sure, in a complete vacuum, devoid of points and anything else that matters a S4 weapon is better then a S3 weapon.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in jp
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





If guard troops are so awesome why guard isn't dominating tournaments but instead are 32 guy cp batteries instead...whoo! 32 guys. 30pts more for competive armies to buy. Super awesome guard troops that competive armies bring bare minimum required.

Some guys here are still in year old meta it seems. Maybe refresh up a bit. Guard has fallen way off except for min battallion for cp with maybe few mortars

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





tneva82 wrote:
If guard troops are so awesome why guard isn't dominating tournaments but instead are 32 guy cp batteries instead...whoo! 32 guys. 30pts more for competive armies to buy. Super awesome guard troops that competive armies bring bare minimum required.

Some guys here are still in year old meta it seems. Maybe refresh up a bit. Guard has fallen way off except for min battallion for cp with maybe few mortars

I love when people just blurt out some colossally ignorant statements like this without having done any fact checking first.

BAO, one of the biggest 40k events of the year, just finished last weekend. The #1 army on the top tables was Guard. This is EXCLUDING the CP batteries, and pretending that they aren't also taking 3 full units of Guardsmen, for the sake of this argument. Of the top 10, 3 were Guard primaries, already more than any other army (with 3 MORE armies taking Guard as allies). Hell, the amount of Guard Primaries in the top 10 alone, outnumbered every other army even going back to top 20.

Of those top 3 Guard players, the two higher placing ones got there by maxing out on Guardsmen.




It's time to admit you didn't really verify any of what you just said before blurting it out off emotion.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

tneva82 wrote:
If guard troops are so awesome why guard isn't dominating tournaments but instead are 32 guy cp batteries instead...whoo! 32 guys. 30pts more for competive armies to buy. Super awesome guard troops that competive armies bring bare minimum required.

Some guys here are still in year old meta it seems. Maybe refresh up a bit. Guard has fallen way off except for min battallion for cp with maybe few mortars

Guard is not dominating tournamebts because... Oh wait they are even against soup. Theres not many tournaments out there without a couple pure guard armies on top 10.

The harsh reality is that if you nerf soup as many "IG is not op, only cp bateries are" apologists want, then Guard (and drukhari) will become even more dominant. Pure Custodes and pure BA lists wont make the cut as they do now without souping. And imperial knights suffer a lot without IG support.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





I think allied detachments should be nerfed. Needing to take a bunch of IG to make your army work solo, is just bad design. That being said, other adjustments need to go hand in hand,

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The BAO results where just discussed by FLG and Guard where the onlu faction to have 3 primary detachments in the top 10.
More than craftworld or drukari individually. But less than aldari combined.

Guard are no slouch's in competitive settings. They are only kept in check by Aeldari cheesey Alitoc-2 or more to hit.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Peregrine wrote:
bibotot wrote:
What in hell do Ork Boyz cost 6 pts per model? They should be overwhelming the Guards with sheer number, not the other way around.


Then you'll need to buff IG stats, because currently that 4-point guardsman is worse than the ork at everything except the 5+ armor save (remember, the ork has a better gun to offset BS 5+). If boyz are overwhelming them with numbers they'd have to be more like space marine level in stats to justify a 10-15 ppm cost.


Ork has a better gun to offset the bs5+. They do about the same damage when they shoot targets. The ork also has T4 to ofset the 6+ save - the main difference it has to pay for is more attacks. Honestly +1 attack is worth more than a 1 point difference. They also come in 30 man squads - which allows the unit to make most out of buffs.

5 point guardsmen is about the easiest change they can make to the game. They are clearly OP. Compare them to a 5 point termagant - they are better in every way except movement. They even beat 5 point hormagants in assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
The BAO results where just discussed by FLG and Guard where the onlu faction to have 3 primary detachments in the top 10.
More than craftworld or drukari individually. But less than aldari combined.

Guard are no slouch's in competitive settings. They are only kept in check by Aeldari cheesey Alitoc-2 or more to hit.

Yep - plus those mechanics are clearly unfair. Those mechanics ruin every shooting armies day. It's too bad they exist because outside of the -1 to hit shenanigans guard clearly blast everyone off the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 14:00:21


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 SHUPPET wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
If guard troops are so awesome why guard isn't dominating tournaments but instead are 32 guy cp batteries instead...whoo! 32 guys. 30pts more for competive armies to buy. Super awesome guard troops that competive armies bring bare minimum required.

Some guys here are still in year old meta it seems. Maybe refresh up a bit. Guard has fallen way off except for min battallion for cp with maybe few mortars

I love when people just blurt out some colossally ignorant statements like this without having done any fact checking first.

BAO, one of the biggest 40k events of the year, just finished last weekend. The #1 army on the top tables was Guard. This is EXCLUDING the CP batteries, and pretending that they aren't also taking 3 full units of Guardsmen, for the sake of this argument. Of the top 10, 3 were Guard primaries, already more than any other army (with 3 MORE armies taking Guard as allies). Hell, the amount of Guard Primaries in the top 10 alone, outnumbered every other army even going back to top 20.

Of those top 3 Guard players, the two higher placing ones got there by maxing out on Guardsmen.




It's time to admit you didn't really verify any of what you just said before blurting it out off emotion.

From the videos I watched (I do not have BCP so i could be wrong) none of those top guard lists were mono guard. While some were guard dominate they still included things like smash captains and jet bikes. While a guard "primary" army is obviously a majority of guard it is still not mono guard. I don't think anyone is arguing that guard+something is insanely strong. My concern is the continuous nerfing of guard because of their ability to be an insanely good option for soup, until people who play mono guard end up having a bottom tier army.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So a 2k list with 1.5k of guard isn't a guard list?

If your talking 800 points of 1 faction 700 of another and 500 og a third faction, thats not representative, but with 1.5k of a faction removing that 500 points of weakness covering isn't suddenly going to make the list uncompetitive as that 1.5k has to be doing a decent chunk of the work or it wouldn't be in a competitive list.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
So a 2k list with 1.5k of guard isn't a guard list?

If your talking 800 points of 1 faction 700 of another and 500 og a third faction, thats not representative, but with 1.5k of a faction removing that 500 points of weakness covering isn't suddenly going to make the list uncompetitive as that 1.5k has to be doing a decent chunk of the work or it wouldn't be in a competitive list.

That 500 points is typically adding something that the IG does not have in its arsenal and something to channel the majority of CP into. Id argue that if IG was broken we would be seeing full 2k points of guard constantly. Once again correct me if I'm wrong but didn't 4 of the 5 top lists include knights? while they might not have been the majority in those lists does this not show that including a knight is just as key to having a winning list as including IG is? All these finishings keep seeming to highlight to me is that Army x+ Army y is very powerful as other then DE Im never really seeing mono factions at the top
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






No one plays mono guard because they can cover the armies weakness with allies. Why wouldn't you do that? It doesn't mean mono guard is bad. Mono guard is actually very strong. It just struggles against aliotoc.

Plus - like you said - it really just taking the most advantage of their command points as they can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 14:30:05


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
No one plays mono guard because they can cover the armies weakness with allies. Why wouldn't you do that? It doesn't mean mono guard is bad. Mono guard is actually very strong. It just struggles against aliotoc.

Plus - like you said - it really just taking the most advantage of their command points as they can.

I play 100% mono guard
   
 
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