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Hey guys, I bought some Rubric Marines for kill team and may end up taking them forward as an army so looking for any advice on what does and doesn't work. Was hoping that a rubric army would work. Also how do people rate units of warp flamers?

Warp flamers are actually terrifying in kill team, especially on demo specalists.

I started working on sons in April

I used this site

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Thousand_Sons(8E)


Rubes have some uses but if are the bulk of the army it can weigh it down.

I play Tsons almost exclusively. Daemon princes with wings are great. Gore with blades are good but need to deepstrike. Don’t use the pistol and chain sword ones. Rubies are ok. They are like 2-3 points to much for what they do. I use scarab terminators which are also over priced but a small 5 man min squad is 204 with natural deepstrike so I use them to harass the backfield. Arihman is really good. The bow gord on disc I like with the shaman. Then of course predators are always useful. I have not used the vortex beast but people seem to like it. Just be aware the tsons are not guard or dark elder or elder. There really is only one “competive” build which is lots of DPs and gors with tzeentch daemon allies. I love playing the army but sometimes it does feel like playing with one hand tied behind your back especially if you go runic heavy which I like for fluff reasons. Hope this helps.

 xeen wrote:
I play Tsons almost exclusively. Daemon princes with wings are great. Gore with blades are good but need to deepstrike. Don’t use the pistol and chain sword ones. Rubies are ok. They are like 2-3 points to much for what they do. I use scarab terminators which are also over priced but a small 5 man min squad is 204 with natural deepstrike so I use them to harass the backfield. Arihman is really good. The bow gord on disc I like with the shaman. Then of course predators are always useful. I have not used the vortex beast but people seem to like it. Just be aware the tsons are not guard or dark elder or elder. There really is only one “competive” build which is lots of DPs and gors with tzeentch daemon allies. I love playing the army but sometimes it does feel like playing with one hand tied behind your back especially if you go runic heavy which I like for fluff reasons. Hope this helps.

Id actually say that Occults are better than Rubrics. They give you more firepower point for point.

As someone who plays lots of t sons there are only 4 good units from the T some codex and 1 ok unit.

Good units are
Ahriman
Sorcerer (not exaulted)
Sorcerer in terminator armor
Daemon prince

Ok units
Magnus

Rubrics and SoT are just hot garbage in t sons list. The only decent way to rub rubrics is as alpha legion and to use forward operatives to get in warp flamers range turn one. Both rubrics and SoT are far to over priced for what they do, which is anti infentry. There are cheaper better options out there.

The only way I have seen t sons run successfully is by abusing the one thing they can do that no one else can, which is spam the crap outta psyker powers, and since even their basic sorcerer gets 2 casts for about 100 points you can spam them a lot and dish out lots of wounds. With the beta rule for deep strike tzangors lost a lot of power, because their issue is they kinda suck unless they are buffed, and you don't want to run them in massive squads because you will loose more to ld checks then shooting BUT they aren't worth buffing in small 15 man groups.

If you play by the beta rules regarding reserves, don't deep strike the Tzaangors if you intend on using them as an alpha strike to distract your opponent's lines, rather shunt them up the field with the DMC, possibly Warptime them (since the don't enter reserves to be placed on the table they aren't restricted from Warptime) and them hammer them in on your opponent's army.

And definitely take Tzaangor Blades over chainsword/autopistol. -1 AP is better than a shooting attack that is weaker and has no AP.

And SoT do look better than Rubrics. 10 wounds for 5 models (versus 10 for 10), better psychic, better melee, more shooting power for the same number of wounds and less points. And they can deep strike to drop in somewhere useful instead of slowly trudge up the board or taking a Rhino.

Rubrics seem more like an anvil unit for the army. You put them on an objective in terrain and you hold onto it until someone comes to stab you in the face to take it away from you.

In the current game, sot are actually worse then rubrics. The reason being there is so much multi wound weapons out there, if you take a plasma and fail on a sot you lost 20% of your unit, lose a single plasma on a rubric squad, only 10%

The problem with rubrics and SoT is they do the same job, which is designed to soak up heavy arms fire, that's the whole point of rubrics having all is dust, so you are forced to shot 1 wound models with multi wound weapons. Why SoT are worse is because well, they are terminators, that's already their role they we're going to be shot with multi wound weapons any way so all is dust is kinda pointless on them, but you end up paying for it any way. The only additional fire power you get is the missle rack which is ok, but still it's just ok. And yeah power swords are great but again, getting into combat is the problem all terminators have

How are the tzaangor enlightened? They seem pretty decent, especially with the bows.

Heafstaag wrote:
How are the tzaangor enlightened? They seem pretty decent, especially with the bows.

Eh, they are alright if you run them In a big max squad and have ahriman and a shaman running behind them. Iirc you can boost their auto wound to hit on a 4+ so you have the ability to wound anything which is nice. They are a. Big threat range as well. But you are still hiding behind a 5++ so

I feel like the Spears are better than the bows, if only because the disc gives an extra attack in melee that the bows don't have. Plus I'm more interested in playing them aggressively than not.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like the Spears are better than the bows, if only because the disc gives an extra attack in melee that the bows don't have. Plus I'm more interested in playing them aggressively than not.

It's only an extra attack with the disk which is a profile of 4 0 1 so it's not really worth it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
As someone who plays lots of t sons there are only 4 good units from the T some codex and 1 ok unit.

Good units are
Ahriman
Sorcerer (not exaulted)
Sorcerer in terminator armor
Daemon prince

Ok units
Magnus

Rubrics and SoT are just hot garbage in t sons list. The only decent way to rub rubrics is as alpha legion and to use forward operatives to get in warp flamers range turn one. Both rubrics and SoT are far to over priced for what they do, which is anti infentry. There are cheaper better options out there.

The only way I have seen t sons run successfully is by abusing the one thing they can do that no one else can, which is spam the crap outta psyker powers, and since even their basic sorcerer gets 2 casts for about 100 points you can spam them a lot and dish out lots of wounds. With the beta rule for deep strike tzangors lost a lot of power, because their issue is they kinda suck unless they are buffed, and you don't want to run them in massive squads because you will loose more to ld checks then shooting BUT they aren't worth buffing in small 15 man groups.

Spot on but I think you left out 1 unit that is actaully really good - mutilator vortex beast. Also - pink horrors.

Vortex beasts are ok*

They have the same problem that predators have, if you take one, you have to take Two because one will die first shooting around, and if you take 2 at that point you might as well take 3. Which is great but then you need to use them to buff something. Which your options are tzangors or pink horrors form a Daemon list which tzangors are tough again because of LD and only a 5++.

I have wanted to try it on a pink horror blob because it can get pretty memey as you can get them to like str 7 and what not

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Vortex beasts are ok*

They have the same problem that predators have, if you take one, you have to take Two because one will die first shooting around, and if you take 2 at that point you might as well take 3. Which is great but then you need to use them to buff something. Which your options are tzangors or pink horrors form a Daemon list which tzangors are tough again because of LD and only a 5++.

I have wanted to try it on a pink horror blob because it can get pretty memey as you can get them to like str 7 and what not

Mutalith Vortex Beast has never been the target of major fire in my games. If you bring anything that actually makes a threat right away, it will be targetted before the Vortex Beast. Predators, Daemon Engines, Greater Daemons, most people HEAVILY overlook them in my experience.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like the Spears are better than the bows, if only because the disc gives an extra attack in melee that the bows don't have. Plus I'm more interested in playing them aggressively than not.

It's only an extra attack with the disk which is a profile of 4 0 1 so it's not really worth it.

It still benefits from the Shaaman's buff to hit more easily, and weight of dice can still help put wounds on things, even if they don't auto-wound on hits of 6+s like the spears/bows do.

Plus the unit leader has 3 attacks base, but would only shoot twice, making the spear better for that reason alone in my book.

Then again I plan on ramming the Enlightened into rear line units like Devastators who'd normally rely on a screen to keep charging units off of them rather than tank hunting with them (as some people use the bows for).

For tank hunting a Defiler with Twin Lascannon and buffed with Flickering Flames (because it's a daemon) can punch holes in most vehicles pretty easily when you hit (wounding on a 2+ most of the time thanks to FF). That's my current tool kit choice at least for dealing with some of the crunchier vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Vortex beasts are ok*

They have the same problem that predators have, if you take one, you have to take Two because one will die first shooting around, and if you take 2 at that point you might as well take 3. Which is great but then you need to use them to buff something. Which your options are tzangors or pink horrors form a Daemon list which tzangors are tough again because of LD and only a 5++.

I have wanted to try it on a pink horror blob because it can get pretty memey as you can get them to like str 7 and what not

Alternatively, for only 150 points you have a Distraction Carnifex you can aggressively run up the board while it throws buffs on itself (or mortal wounds as you roll the dice for extra options).

If you're going to use it for buffing Tzaangors that will be coming from reserves on turn 2, it'll likely be dead on turn 1, but if you're using it as a reasonably priced large distraction that barrels up the board as fast as it can, it can help distract your opponent from other targets as you threaten to feed his guys to that tentacled maw.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like the Spears are better than the bows, if only because the disc gives an extra attack in melee that the bows don't have. Plus I'm more interested in playing them aggressively than not.

It's only an extra attack with the disk which is a profile of 4 0 1 so it's not really worth it.

It still benefits from the Shaaman's buff to hit more easily, and weight of dice can still help put wounds on things, even if they don't auto-wound on hits of 6+s like the spears/bows do.

Plus the unit leader has 3 attacks base, but would only shoot twice, making the spear better for that reason alone in my book.

Then again I plan on ramming the Enlightened into rear line units like Devastators who'd normally rely on a screen to keep charging units off of them rather than tank hunting with them (as some people use the bows for).

For tank hunting a Defiler with Twin Lascannon and buffed with Flickering Flames (because it's a daemon) can punch holes in most vehicles pretty easily when you hit (wounding on a 2+ most of the time thanks to FF). That's my current tool kit choice at least for dealing with some of the crunchier vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Vortex beasts are ok*

They have the same problem that predators have, if you take one, you have to take Two because one will die first shooting around, and if you take 2 at that point you might as well take 3. Which is great but then you need to use them to buff something. Which your options are tzangors or pink horrors form a Daemon list which tzangors are tough again because of LD and only a 5++.

I have wanted to try it on a pink horror blob because it can get pretty memey as you can get them to like str 7 and what not

Alternatively, for only 150 points you have a Distraction Carnifex you can aggressively run up the board while it throws buffs on itself (or mortal wounds as you roll the dice for extra options).

If you're going to use it for buffing Tzaangors that will be coming from reserves on turn 2, it'll likely be dead on turn 1, but if you're using it as a reasonably priced large distraction that barrels up the board as fast as it can, it can help distract your opponent from other targets as you threaten to feed his guys to that tentacled maw.

You are giving the vortex beast to much credit, again, its only defense is a 5++ and T7, is not that hard to kill at all.

I still dont like the spears because you are putting your enlightened in threat range of other melee units, addtionally you also need to have your heros close to them in order to buff them, so now you are putting your shaman, and either an exaulted sorcerer or ahriman in melee range of things, both things you DONT want to get into melee. Plus the other reason is with the bows you have a much better threat range on the board. where ever you drop them they can put pressure on anything within 36+d6 " where as the spears your threat range is only 12"+2d6 which again to be effective you also need to keep your heros near them.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like the Spears are better than the bows, if only because the disc gives an extra attack in melee that the bows don't have. Plus I'm more interested in playing them aggressively than not.

It's only an extra attack with the disk which is a profile of 4 0 1 so it's not really worth it.

It still benefits from the Shaaman's buff to hit more easily, and weight of dice can still help put wounds on things, even if they don't auto-wound on hits of 6+s like the spears/bows do.

Plus the unit leader has 3 attacks base, but would only shoot twice, making the spear better for that reason alone in my book.

Then again I plan on ramming the Enlightened into rear line units like Devastators who'd normally rely on a screen to keep charging units off of them rather than tank hunting with them (as some people use the bows for).

For tank hunting a Defiler with Twin Lascannon and buffed with Flickering Flames (because it's a daemon) can punch holes in most vehicles pretty easily when you hit (wounding on a 2+ most of the time thanks to FF). That's my current tool kit choice at least for dealing with some of the crunchier vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Vortex beasts are ok*

They have the same problem that predators have, if you take one, you have to take Two because one will die first shooting around, and if you take 2 at that point you might as well take 3. Which is great but then you need to use them to buff something. Which your options are tzangors or pink horrors form a Daemon list which tzangors are tough again because of LD and only a 5++.

I have wanted to try it on a pink horror blob because it can get pretty memey as you can get them to like str 7 and what not

Alternatively, for only 150 points you have a Distraction Carnifex you can aggressively run up the board while it throws buffs on itself (or mortal wounds as you roll the dice for extra options).

If you're going to use it for buffing Tzaangors that will be coming from reserves on turn 2, it'll likely be dead on turn 1, but if you're using it as a reasonably priced large distraction that barrels up the board as fast as it can, it can help distract your opponent from other targets as you threaten to feed his guys to that tentacled maw.

You are giving the vortex beast to much credit, again, its only defense is a 5++ and T7, is not that hard to kill at all.

I still dont like the spears because you are putting your enlightened in threat range of other melee units, addtionally you also need to have your heros close to them in order to buff them, so now you are putting your shaman, and either an exaulted sorcerer or ahriman in melee range of things, both things you DONT want to get into melee. Plus the other reason is with the bows you have a much better threat range on the board. where ever you drop them they can put pressure on anything within 36+d6 " where as the spears your threat range is only 12"+2d6 which again to be effective you also need to keep your heros near them.

What the gak are you using as a baseline? A vortex beast has a 4+, 5++ and t7, which is at times better than most Astartes tanks of the same value (a 5++ is better than a 3+ against anti-tank fire)

You seem to be doing what MTG players call "dies to removal" logic. Yes it will die to anti tank fire easily. So will every other heavy support model in the 100-200 range.

I'm just going off of the experience I have with vortex beasts, I always loose them or get them crippled turn one.

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I am very interested in Kill Team. I just got married and back from my honeymoon a little over a week ago, so I haven't had time to play yet. But, I'm in the process of putting together as many Kill Teams as I can from the armies I have.

Here's my question... does a box of Rubric Marines have enough Warp Flamers to outfit five Rubrics with them?

Thanks

SG

 Backspacehacker wrote:

You are giving the vortex beast to much credit, again, its only defense is a 5++ and T7, is not that hard to kill at all.

If you spend a turn shooting anti-tank weapons at it instead of my Defiler, Predator or anything else you should be shooting at then it's already made it's points back. If you ignore it because it's just a massive spawn then I can throw it into your lines rather easilly and start eating your screening units, while buffing itself or the blob of Tzaangors that moved up at the same time.

Basically it's not meant to live long, but rather force you to waste time shooting at it in hopes of keeping it from doing it's job. That's why I mentioned using it as a distraction carnifex (a unit that looks like a threat that has reasonable staying power against infantry weapons and requires heavier weapons to bring down, wasting them to protect other parts of your army, but if ignored can still cause some damage).

 Backspacehacker wrote:

I still dont like the spears because you are putting your enlightened in threat range of other melee units, addtionally you also need to have your heros close to them in order to buff them, so now you are putting your shaman, and either an exaulted sorcerer or ahriman in melee range of things, both things you DONT want to get into melee. Plus the other reason is with the bows you have a much better threat range on the board. where ever you drop them they can put pressure on anything within 36+d6 " where as the spears your threat range is only 12"+2d6 which again to be effective you also need to keep your heros near them.

And the way you want to use the Elightened is different how I want to use them (I'm only planning on buffing them with the Shaman, and with a melee Seer's Bane/Power Sword Exalted on a disc if he's in range while he supports other units). I'm not one for putting all my eggs in one basket and would rather keep my buffs spread out over most of my army instead of piling stuff up into a single unit and hope it wins (blame 5th edition where I kept kicking the teeth in on the Deathstar of the month with my Sisters by just mowing it down with concentrated shooting before it got to hit for teaching me that Deathstars are too many points on supporting a single combo).

As I said, I want to use mine to hunt rear line units rather than shooting at tanks or high toughness targets (which is what I usually see the bows being aimed at by people). We have plenty of good shooting, but sometimes you need to dig stuff out of cover on the back lines and I feel spears do that just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ServiceGames wrote:
Here's my question... does a box of Rubric Marines have enough Warp Flamers to outfit five Rubrics with them?

Thanks

SG

Yes.

Oh yeah we are just using them differently. But I think we can both agree for how cheap they are they are pretty damn good units.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh yeah we are just using them differently. But I think we can both agree for how cheap they are they are pretty damn good units.

They are indeed. It's actually kind of a problem how many good units we have because I want to put them all in my army at the same time.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh yeah we are just using them differently. But I think we can both agree for how cheap they are they are pretty damn good units.

They are indeed. It's actually kind of a problem how many good units we have because I want to put them all in my army at the same time.

Well like I said earlier, t sons really only has 4 great units and 2 ok ones

Great
Ahriman
Daemon prince
Sorcerer not exaulted
Sorcerer in terminator armor

Ok units
Magnus
Enlightened

Everything else is either pure trash (rubrics sot) or you need to build your whole army around them and they end up being one trick ponies (tzengors)

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh yeah we are just using them differently. But I think we can both agree for how cheap they are they are pretty damn good units.

They are indeed. It's actually kind of a problem how many good units we have because I want to put them all in my army at the same time.

Well like I said earlier, t sons really only has 4 great units and 2 ok ones

Great
Ahriman
Daemon prince
Sorcerer not exaulted
Sorcerer in terminator armor

Ok units
Magnus
Enlightened

Everything else is either pure trash (rubrics sot) or you need to build your whole army around them and they end up being one trick ponies (tzengors)

I'd personally put Cultists in the 'Great' section. If you aren't going to be running rubrics, Cultists are in my opinion superior to Tzaangors, due to the beta rules on deepstrike. They can protect your relatively weak psykers from melee and shooting as well, and hilariously enough you can actually give them a 5++, making that 4 point model suprisingly hard to take off the board.

Yet both are meh compared to the easily-available horrors.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yet both are meh compared to the easily-available horrors.

Not really. Cultists are 1 more point than Brims and have actual offensive capabilities, more movement, and more synergy with a t-sons army. Pink horrors are indeed better than Tzaangors, but are more expensive than Cultists, so they make rather inferior bubblewrap. Although Brims, Pinks and Cultists are all the best chaff you can use, they don't cancel eachother out. They all serve a niche. (RIP in piece blue horrors.)

 ServiceGames wrote:
Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I am very interested in Kill Team. I just got married and back from my honeymoon a little over a week ago, so I haven't had time to play yet. But, I'm in the process of putting together as many Kill Teams as I can from the armies I have.

Here's my question... does a box of Rubric Marines have enough Warp Flamers to outfit five Rubrics with them?

Thanks

SG

Yes it does. There are 10 flamers on the sprue

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh yeah we are just using them differently. But I think we can both agree for how cheap they are they are pretty damn good units.

They are indeed. It's actually kind of a problem how many good units we have because I want to put them all in my army at the same time.

Well like I said earlier, t sons really only has 4 great units and 2 ok ones

Great
Ahriman
Daemon prince
Sorcerer not exaulted
Sorcerer in terminator armor

Ok units
Magnus
Enlightened

Everything else is either pure trash (rubrics sot) or you need to build your whole army around them and they end up being one trick ponies (tzengors)

I'd add the Defiler to the great list (due to turning into a vehicle wrecking machine with a lascannon and Flickering flames, or just a hard to kill monster rusing up the board while throwing battle cannon rounds around like a Plague Marine does horrible diseases), and the other daemon engines in the okay list (the Heldrake might be a "poor" option admittedly, but it can do okay against other flyers in melee at least).

Rubrics are better with the new reserve rules (giving you that important PL to make it easier to stash large units in reserves) and are durable enough to weather a turn with less than your fall army on the board, but due to their cost I'd still stick to a single unit (maybe 2) in a 2k list. They're an anvil, and due to cost and mobility limitations, they really feel like one too. In PL based games I feel they work a lot better, but no one on the internet seems to like PL so we won't talk about it.

Spawn in a TSons army are definitely "okay" due to the strategem we can toss on them to choose their weapon option and them either being a good distraction or largely ignored. They could stand to be a little cheaper, but they can chew units up pretty well if they hit, and if they die first then your other options are safe from at least some of the shooting. Plus it's good to have a model on hand if you decide to blow up a character for the strategem.

SoT can be okay, but it comes down to your meta. If everyone is geared up to kill Knights then kiss your SoT goodbye, but if they're still aiming more at hordes then you can bring a reasonable amount of durability to the table. Sadly Tzeentch doesn't have a lot of defensive powers to protect your models with so it can be hard to get a good defensive buff on them.

Personally I'm a fan of the Exalted Sorceror due to them giving buffs and re-rolls, but I know the internet is still overly tuned into the Daemon Prince (all three flavors we can take), so I'm not going to argue the issue much here. I'm just going to say that in lower points games, or if you want to run cheaper HQs for more points elsewhere they can do a decent job supporting your army. Just don't expect to use them as aggressively as the Daemon Prince. Also get a box of them even if you don't want to use them because they have lots of parts you can use to give your Aspiring Sorcerors some unique flavor so the units feel more like unique entities.

Magnus is either OK or just downright bad though. If your meta is killing knights then leave him at home. Heck, leave him at home if they kill tanks easily too. He's just too much of your army for a model that can drop in a single turn and can't come back (like a Knight can). In more anti-horde based metas though he can shine since high damage weapons will be rolling around.

I have to disagree with some things here. I don't think Magnus is that bad. Buffed he is sporting a +3 invuln and can be hard to remove at times (luck dependent). I think the problem we see with Magnus is how people are playing him. He is not Mortarion and does not belong in close combat unless the opportunity presents itself to charge a unit who cant really fight back. Im not saying hes a tourney winner, because after his nerf he most certainly is not. But he can be a strong choice in games depending on meta.


I think people are discounting Tzaangors to much with the DS nerfs. They still are a solid combat unit at a decent price with a cheap stratagem doubling their potential. Now you probably want to run two or three blobs instead DSing one or two for a alpha charge. They punch far harder than cultists for 3 more points. Enlightened are great. Both bows and spears work but have different ways to play them. A full unit of spears can potentially down most armor in one combat round (luck dependent) but its more vulnerable than the bows. Spears become more deadly if you have one or two mutaliths in your game, without them id say go bows and hit back field.


SoTs are terrible in any meta. They do the same job as rubrics but are more vulnerable in plasma metas. Poorly designed unit. Needs new rules more wounds or better weapons. Rubrics are rubrics. I find that running them in large groups nets more rewards than small groups. I have not tried suicide rubrics yet. But I dont imagine they work to well. They really need to get their old AP back to be a threat. Currently they are to expensive for the firepower they bring. Unnerfing the inferno weapons would go a long way to fix that. But it will never happen. So.


Im not a fan of Defilers as shooting units. BS and moving hurts them to much. A melee defiler however can be mean as hell if they make it to combat. If you are looking for armored shooting you should look to forgeworld if you want to keep it in legion. I myself have a levi and its a great unit.

All in all I think we are strong army. Not top but strong. As a potential chaos player you should get used to this (from a historical perspective its true, sadly). Either way I think its best to build your force by putting most emphasis on your command options and then filling it out with a few heavy hitters. Or you can ally in demons for horrors, screamers and flamers which I think are all great choices. I do this myself. Often my lists end up looking like Thousand Sons command with token Cultist blobs and a Levi or Defiler and the rest into horror blobs with screamer hit squads. But most importantly, are you playing to meta or playing to enjoy. Chaos is off meta right now in all flavors so look elsewhere for crunch. But Tsons have tons of effective and fun lists for those of us off the meta circus. Either way look into forgeworld.


Hope some of this helps.