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Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.

IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

Ballistic based weaponry are sensitive to wind and weather, if the target moves suddenly when you fire, the projectile will miss. Besides the amount of ammo you have to carry around would be insane just for a few weeks engagement.
On the contrary with a las based weapon a SM could in theory have unlimited supply of ammo with his powerpack.

There's trillions of Guardsmen. Lasguns have no moving parts, no significant points of failure, and effectively unlimited ammo.

HexHammer wrote:
Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.

IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

I don't think you understand what a boltgun is, a Boltgun isn't just a gun that fire bullets. it fires rocket proelled armor penatrating explosive shells

It would be something like; 3 transports filled with guard, 7 transports filled bullets. With more ships needed each week to just keep their ammo filled.

While guard should Definately have Las guns for logistics purposes, marines should also have a backup Las system build into their armour somewhere. They carry a micro fusion reactor on their back anyway, so may as well have a backup ranged weapon that will never run out of ammo as long as the armour us working.

Bolt guns don't fire bullets. It's standard round is a .75 caliber high explosive gyro rocket.

As above - lasguns are logistically far more robust and require less maintainance that bolters do. Guardsmen require as little logistical strain as possible, so lasguns work best. Although, as said above, giving Space Marines a las weapon of some kind to hook up to their backpack power generator would be a good move - a hotshot laspistol, perhaps.

The Legions originally started out with Volkite weaponry, but as the Great Crusade expanded Bolters were easier to supply & maintain.

Also, Marines have plenty ballistic/projectile weapons. Even ignoring Bolter and Heavy Bolters, they also use Autocannons (though not as much as Guard), Assault cannons, etc

Marines probably have a good mix of both types of weapons whether traditional ballistics or energy based.
Guard have lasguns basically because they are "idiot-proof" and easy to mass produce

-

3 words why space marines with guns firing bullets are way better than las weapons:


MASS REACTIVE ROUNDS

BrianDavion wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.

IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

I don't think you understand what a boltgun is, a Boltgun isn't just a gun that fire bullets. it fires rocket proelled armor penatrating explosive shells

He was confused by the fact it's strength 4. And does no damage on the table top. Even though it's effectively a rapid fire RPG.

Part of it is that come 8th GW nerfed standard bolters. Most likely to further push new marines.

Well, Bolters were weak in 7th, too. Yes, they were better against Orks and Guard, but everything was good against them, that's why they were very weak.
Also, Bolters in 8th have become better against most vehicles. ;-)

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, Bolters were weak in 7th, too. Yes, they were better against Orks and Guard, but everything was good against them, that's why they were very weak.
Also, Bolters in 8th have become better against most vehicles. ;-)

Which is one of the reasons I dislike the change to how wounds are taken and ap is handled. Bolters are much worse verse light infantry but someone have a one and six chance in popping a wound off a knight? That bothers me.

I think Space Marines carrying hot-shot laspistols would be a great idea, but bolters should be buffed in the game to Primaris levels across the board.

Based on the answers I assume there's many civilians here, that never shot a projective over 200 m?

HexHammer wrote:
Based on the answers I assume there's many civilians here, that never shot a projective over 200 m?

Space marines have binocular vision. With a lasgun - they literally couldn't miss.

Lasguns are cheap to manufacture, easy to maintain and hard to truly break. Power packs can be charged in sunlight or thrown in a campfire for an emergency charge. Ideal for massed rank and file, expendable infantry.

Bolters are barely understood, difficult to maintain, hard to carry ammo for and kick like a mule. Ideal for genetically enhanced elite superhuman mystical warrior monks with tech serfs and attendants galore.

I see no issue with current fluff and weapons suiting owners. You could always go pick up some Rogue Trader-era Marines with lasguns and shuriken catapults if you want!

Space marines have long las sniper rifles. The guard has solid projectile sniper rifles. Wrap your head around that one!

 Nerak wrote:
Space marines have long las sniper rifles. The guard has solid projectile sniper rifles. Wrap your head around that one!

The Ministorum probably made an error centuries ago and just stuck to it!!!

 Xenomancers wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
Based on the answers I assume there's many civilians here, that never shot a projective over 200 m?

Space marines have binocular vision. With a lasgun - they literally couldn't miss.

That sure sound very civilian to me.

HexHammer wrote:
Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.

IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

Because a bolter is more devastating than a lasgun.

A bolter fires a .75 caliber (19.05mm) armor piercing rocket that explodes inside of you with the force of a modern day 40mm grenade. Compare that to a lasgun which has the stopping power of a modern day ballistic assault rifle, even if it is more accurate.

A lasgun is more accurate than a bolter but a bolter is basically a fully automatic armor-piercing RPG gun.

The only reason why guardsmen aren't equipped with human sized bolters is logistical issues.

Guardsmen also wouldn't be able to handle constant recoil of the boltgun (if we're basing this on lore etc.) and would struggle to carry the weight of the extra ammo.

It's a major reason many countries in the world have switched to smaller caliber rifles - recoil, and more ammo for the same or less weight. The ideal would be the same in 40K.

Why do Marines carry Bolters? Because they’re terror weapons.

Why don’t Space Marines snipe or wear camo? Because they’re terror troops. They’re there to break the enemies will by being blatant, and striking where they want with ridiculous force.

They want you to see them coming. They want you to see them shrug off gunfire whilst your squadmate detonate around you.

Lasgun just isn’t up to that.

TRAP DOOR!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And scouts are the snipers and wetwork sepcialists in the Marines.

They're the ones you don't see coming


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Case in point about lasguns vs bolters:


A single lasgun firing against carapace or power armour has a low chance of striking a join or weak point and actually penetrating. It is more likely to burn a little of the armour (or in the case of power armour just scuff the paint a bit)

A boltgun (storm bolter, bolt gun, bolt rifle, auto bolt rifle etc) using a standard mass reactive rocket propelled round is capable of shredding through carapace armour and blowing holes in power armour, with every shot.


Now. certain las weaponry in the IG armoury (eg hotshot lasguns) have the power to contend with bolters, but they are not fielded en masse like bolters are to space marines.

Lasguns have no moving parts, are cheap as chips to manufacture, don't require hundreds of duo-deca-tillions of bullets be made for the sept-illion Guardsmen firing around the galaxy every minute. They are lasers, so very accurate and pretty much point and shoot, perfect for a Guardsman with 4 weeks training and an expected lifespan of 20 weeks that you don't want to invest years training to die in 2 seconds. They strike with the same force as contemporary (21st Century) Assault Rifles as shown by their comparable stats with the Autogun and Autopistol.

Their tanks are relatively cheap to make, with weapons such as the Battle Cannon and Basilisk cannon requiring a few dozen shells in the course of the battle and are relatively cheap to manufacture and repair.


Boltguns are not solid ammo weapons. They fire a sophistocated rocket-propelled, armour piercing, explosive slug capable of blowing a human to smithereens in a single shot. Each one is a work of labour to ensure the smooth functioning and precise firepower. They contain loads of working parts and each bullet is in investment in itself. It is wielded by genetically enhanced superhumans who are trained and drilled to be better marksmen that a human could ever accomplish without enhancement, and are far less likely to miss. They are trained for years, gruelling training taking out 80% of the aspirants before they even get to see a boltgun. They spend decades training with their weapon, sometimes centuries. To boot, most bolters are designed for use with power armour, and even the human sized Godwyn-De'az pattern that Sisters of Battle use would likely remove a Guardsman's arm from his shoulder.

Meanwhile, their tanks such as Predators and Land Raiders make use of Lascannon, each a powerful relic that requires intense maintenance and reparation, polishing of refractor crystals and focusing lenses, careful calculation of geometry, angles and physics.


In short: Imperial Guard get cheap and cost-efficient weaponry to reflect their expected lifespan, where they will die before they fire a shot, and get slower, weaker and worse with age. Space Marines are each a unique investment and a hero of humanity who is expected to give hundreds of years of service, becoming better and better over time. To this end, they are given the best weaponry and wargear possible because they can expect to make use of that weapon for centuries, not minutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HexHammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
Based on the answers I assume there's many civilians here, that never shot a projective over 200 m?

Space marines have binocular vision. With a lasgun - they literally couldn't miss.

That sure sound very civilian to me.

Its a very civilian answer, I agree, but the point still stands. With space marine's increased vision, awareness, brainpower (for leading targets), autosenses built into their HUD, and decades of training, plus a weapon with no recoil and no bullet drop, there's no reason a space marine should ever miss his target unless he's in the thick of melee. Or, to be more accurate about, a Space Marine should be able to hit his target 99.999% of the time.

On the other hand, with all of that extra help, they should still use bolters. Even the recoil can be negated between an Astartes enhanced strength and armour, recoil should be a null factor. The only issue is again, drop off over distance, which can still be accounted for and with all the training they receive and increased intelligence, and as seen in Sergeant Telion's fluff, space marines are easily capable of shooting well beyond the optimal range of their weapon.

Actually, bolters shouldn't have bullet drop over distance. The gyros within each bolt should compensate for the gravity by angling ever so slightly downward. This is true for pretty much everything such as temperature, humidity, wind, Coriolis effect etc. The only thing a space marine should have to take into account is travel time.

Wouldn't that cause the bolt to tumble instead, as the thrust is not directly below its centre of mass. If it spins because of rifling it again would not work. And to compensate for the coriolis effect over long distances it would need a side thrust to compensate for the spin of the Earth.

Tygre wrote:
Wouldn't that cause the bolt to tumble instead, as the thrust is not directly below its centre of mass. If it spins because of rifling it again would not work. And to compensate for the coriolis effect over long distances it would need a side thrust to compensate for the spin of the Earth.

No the bolt wouldn't tumble because there is a constant forward force... you are thinking of a sharp+quick upward force on the back end, whereas I am thinking more of an ever so slightly angled thrust (maybe a fraction of a degree downward to counter gravity) with micro thrust corrections to counter the tumbling from air resistance. Remember, a bolt fired from a boltgun is more like a missile than a projectile.

Ideally Space Marines would use Custodes stats to better represent their fluff, but then Custodes would have to somehow be EVEN BETTAH, which is not possible to do well in a D6 based system.