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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Simple fix: For AM infantry units, successive weapons cost more. In a HWT, 33 pts will get you 3 mortars. So 6 would be 66, etc.

Instead, 1 HWT of 3 mortars = 33pts. 2HWTs of 3 mortars = 72pts. 3 HWTs of 3 Mortars = 117. Im just adding a tax for successive units, of 1pt per model.

This would also effect command/Veteran squad plasma spam. I feel it would force players to pay more, or be more varied in their choices. I don't see how this would work with vehicles, as I believe vehicles to be mostly correct in their costs.

Thoughts?
   
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London

Why don't you just increase the price of Mortars instead of making a weird tax system?
   
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Stubborn Prosecutor





Successive points costs are a terrible idea. A 33 point lascannon does exactly the same work as a 30 point lascannon.

It's especially bad because you are pointing at a faction that has a deliberately weaker than MEQ statline to make up for it's need for model redundancy. Guard stuff comes in multiple models because the first one often misses and the second one dies before it gets to shoot in a lot of cases.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/08 16:01:31


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


Does AM get that sweet, sweet 3+ to hit and better armor save then like other Imperial troops? I think they'd take the trade

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ChargerIIC wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


Does AM get that sweet, sweet 3+ to hit and better armor save then like other Imperial troops? I think they'd take the trade

I think for almost half the price I'd rather have a slightly less chance to hit. You're not serious are you?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


Does AM get that sweet, sweet 3+ to hit and better armor save then like other Imperial troops? I think they'd take the trade

I think for almost half the price I'd rather have a slightly less chance to hit. You're not serious are you?


Yeah, 40 points per Lascannon hit is so much better than 37.5 points per Lascannon hit!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Why don't you just increase the price of Mortars instead of making a weird tax system?

Even simpler:

Mortars can only be taken as part of a Heavy Weapon Squad.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd rather just see the heavy weapons pointed appropriately instead of a wonky tax system. Mortars are undercosted for what they do. They should be 7 or 8 points.

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Why don't you just increase the price of Mortars instead of making a weird tax system?

Even simpler:

Mortars can only be taken as part of a Heavy Weapon Squad.


This would also be a good change. From a fluff and a real life standpoint (although balance takes precedence to these) mortars are never issued to frontline infantry squads. Mortars are traditionally their own separate formation attached to a company or larger, that sometimes get parceled out to support smaller infantry groups on an as needed basis. The closest historical precedent to mortars in infantry squads to my knowledge is the soviet army during WW2, which had 1 mortar attached to the HQ section of a rifle platoon. To translate that into tabletop terms, they had a mortar in their platoon command squad.

Although, if we go down that path, you could make the same argument that lascannons, and autocannons also don't belong in line squads either by sheer ammo efficiency. Try to imagine lugging around 1,000 rounds of these:


[Thumb - Soviet-aircraft-cannon-NR-30_BR-shell_5.jpg]

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/23 07:56:01


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





w1zard wrote:
I'd rather just see the heavy weapons pointed appropriately instead of a wonky tax system. Mortars are undercosted for what they do. They should be 7 or 8 points



7-8pts? For random hits? on average 3.5. S4 no ap?
Yeah no, i have nothing against an increase to 6 pts, but 7 or 8?
Also so long HWT's are so easily killed nobody is going to use them with anything other then mortars since
A) they are indirect therefore saving the squad from fire
B) The next cheapest option would be the Heavy bolter at 8ppm, which frankly isn't so hot on a t3 w2 unit now is it.

If you really want to curb weapon spam then do so for all factions equally, especially all marines lists suffer from dissy and plasma-spam. Atleast be consistent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 08:37:18


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in fi
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 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


How much BS4+ Imperium units have same weapons for cheaper price? Surely you don't dare to claim IG lascannon(4+ to hit) should cost same as space marine lascannon(hits on 3+ plus other benefits)? As that's obviously laughably bad game design.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 10:43:32


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tneva82 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


How much BS4+ Imperium units have same weapons for cheaper price? Surely you don't dare to claim IG lascannon(4+ to hit) should cost same as space marine lascannon(hits on 3+ plus other benefits)? As that's obviously laughably bad game design.

It would've been last edition in terms of bad game design, but Infantry increased in survivability AND got a price cut on top of it all. An Infantry squad with a 13 point Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter is still cheaper than a base Marine squad!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Would personally love sliding scales on points values - HH has it in a simple way with the base squad members and extras having a different cost.

Though personally I'd scale it the other way, start expensive, then get cheaper.

one laser cannon is useful, two is better, but is ten really ten times as good as one? given you have to find space to put them, ten don't work as well with orders or other sources of re-rolls and similar.

you could probably argue that by the time you get to ten you should be paying say 90% for the 10th one, maybe 80% by the time you get to 20.

in smaller games not sure how much difference it makes to be honest though, and in larger ones its probably not worth the book keeping when you build your force.

Note I would consider a heavy weapon in a line squad as different to that in a heavy weapons squad just for the delta in survivability
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


How much BS4+ Imperium units have same weapons for cheaper price? Surely you don't dare to claim IG lascannon(4+ to hit) should cost same as space marine lascannon(hits on 3+ plus other benefits)? As that's obviously laughably bad game design.

It would've been last edition in terms of bad game design, but Infantry increased in survivability AND got a price cut on top of it all. An Infantry squad with a 13 point Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter is still cheaper than a base Marine squad!


Lol. You can't claim hitting on 4+ is equal to hitting on 3+.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
7-8pts? For random hits? on average 3.5. S4 no ap?
Yeah no, i have nothing against an increase to 6 pts, but 7 or 8?

Yes. Compare to a heavy bolter for 8 points. A mortar has .5 more shots on average, 12" longer range, and the ability to ignore LOS. At the cost of 1 str and 1 AP.

7 points for a mortar is perfectly fair when you can sit them out of LOS and fire away. It generally isn't worth the time to try to flank and destroy such a cheap unit so they generally get ignored.
   
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tneva82 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


How much BS4+ Imperium units have same weapons for cheaper price? Surely you don't dare to claim IG lascannon(4+ to hit) should cost same as space marine lascannon(hits on 3+ plus other benefits)? As that's obviously laughably bad game design.

It would've been last edition in terms of bad game design, but Infantry increased in survivability AND got a price cut on top of it all. An Infantry squad with a 13 point Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter is still cheaper than a base Marine squad!


Lol. You can't claim hitting on 4+ is equal to hitting on 3+.

Hence why the platform doesn't cost the same. The weapon is going to be of similar worth no matter what though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





w1zard wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
7-8pts? For random hits? on average 3.5. S4 no ap?
Yeah no, i have nothing against an increase to 6 pts, but 7 or 8?

Yes. Compare to a heavy bolter for 8 points. A mortar has .5 more shots on average, 12" longer range, and the ability to ignore LOS. At the cost of 1 str and 1 AP.

7 points for a mortar is perfectly fair when you can sit them out of LOS and fire away. It generally isn't worth the time to try to flank and destroy such a cheap unit so they generally get ignored.


Depends, i guess it could be worth 7 then again i feel like the Heavy Bolter itself is for non marines overpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Even simpler fix: don't make IG weapons cheaper than their identical counterparts available to other imperium armies.


How much BS4+ Imperium units have same weapons for cheaper price? Surely you don't dare to claim IG lascannon(4+ to hit) should cost same as space marine lascannon(hits on 3+ plus other benefits)? As that's obviously laughably bad game design.

It would've been last edition in terms of bad game design, but Infantry increased in survivability AND got a price cut on top of it all. An Infantry squad with a 13 point Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter is still cheaper than a base Marine squad!


Lol. You can't claim hitting on 4+ is equal to hitting on 3+.

Hence why the platform doesn't cost the same. The weapon is going to be of similar worth no matter what though.


That didn't work out so good for orks and Rockits though, now did it.
The only special / heavy weapon where i could see that philosophy would be in regards to flamers, since they auto hit.
Anything else get's massively influenced by BS, i mean a missile launcher can not be the same value on an Ork and on a space marine,yet the rockit is nearly the same price and as a consequence never picked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/24 11:01:05


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Guys.. saying that a BS4+ lascannon and BS3+ lascannon shouldnt cost the same is kinda nonsense, it doesn't take everything into account.

The WEAPONS should cost the same.
The difference in price should be baked into the cost of the model holding it. Space Marines pay 13 points for a model to hold a lascannon. A heavy weapons team is 6 points a model, which provides it the extra wound, lesser armor save, lesser strength, and lesser toughness.

*That* is where the price difference shows up. The gun itself, the lascannon, is a 25 point weapon, and should absolutely cost the same. The marine player is already paying over twice as much for the darn platform, and then another 5 additional points just for the privilege of the stupid gun?

So a Guard has to pay 26 points to bring a lascannon. Marines have to pay 38??? 33% more?? Nonsense. Guard HWT with lascannon ought to be paying 31, bringing the lascannon to a 25 point gun. The bearers are already appropriately priced for what they bring to the table.


No, AM is absolutely getting their guns for too cheap. It was the same way with Scions getting 9 point plasma guns on 9 point models, when marines had to pay 13 for the same gun, on a 13 point model. It needs to be streamlined.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/24 12:47:32


Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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But then why would a Power Sword on a Guardsman cost as much as a Power Sword on an SM Captain? One gets a gakton more value out of it.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Guys.. saying that a BS4+ lascannon and BS3+ lascannon shouldnt cost the same is kinda nonsense, it doesn't take everything into account.

The WEAPONS should cost the same.
The difference in price should be baked into the cost of the model holding it. Space Marines pay 13 points for a model to hold a lascannon. A heavy weapons team is 6 points a model, which provides it the extra wound, lesser armor save, lesser strength, and lesser toughness.

*That* is where the price difference shows up. The gun itself, the lascannon, is a 25 point weapon, and should absolutely cost the same. The marine player is already paying over twice as much for the darn platform, and then another 5 additional points just for the privilege of the stupid gun?

So a Guard has to pay 26 points to bring a lascannon. Marines have to pay 38??? 33% more?? Nonsense. Guard HWT with lascannon ought to be paying 31, bringing the lascannon to a 25 point gun. The bearers are already appropriately priced for what they bring to the table.


No, AM is absolutely getting their guns for too cheap. It was the same way with Scions getting 9 point plasma guns on 9 point models, when marines had to pay 13 for the same gun, on a 13 point model. It needs to be streamlined.

Scions and Veterans are also BS3.

That's why the price went up on Plasma Guns.

You're also ignoring that while you're "paying over twice as much for the darn platform", you're getting a better platform. Unless you want to argue that HWTs should be BS3+, which I'm totally fine with.
   
Made in us
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

 Kanluwen wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Guys.. saying that a BS4+ lascannon and BS3+ lascannon shouldnt cost the same is kinda nonsense, it doesn't take everything into account.

The WEAPONS should cost the same.
The difference in price should be baked into the cost of the model holding it. Space Marines pay 13 points for a model to hold a lascannon. A heavy weapons team is 6 points a model, which provides it the extra wound, lesser armor save, lesser strength, and lesser toughness.

*That* is where the price difference shows up. The gun itself, the lascannon, is a 25 point weapon, and should absolutely cost the same. The marine player is already paying over twice as much for the darn platform, and then another 5 additional points just for the privilege of the stupid gun?

So a Guard has to pay 26 points to bring a lascannon. Marines have to pay 38??? 33% more?? Nonsense. Guard HWT with lascannon ought to be paying 31, bringing the lascannon to a 25 point gun. The bearers are already appropriately priced for what they bring to the table.


No, AM is absolutely getting their guns for too cheap. It was the same way with Scions getting 9 point plasma guns on 9 point models, when marines had to pay 13 for the same gun, on a 13 point model. It needs to be streamlined.

Scions and Veterans are also BS3.

That's why the price went up on Plasma Guns.

You're also ignoring that while you're "paying over twice as much for the darn platform", you're getting a better platform. Unless you want to argue that HWTs should be BS3+, which I'm totally fine with.



That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 iGuy91 wrote:

That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

And you're ignoring the point I'm making.

They literally have established the precedent of the weapon costing different points for different statlines.
Plasma and Melta Guns both cost more for BS3+ than they do BS4+ in the Guard book.
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

 Kanluwen wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

And you're ignoring the point I'm making.

They literally have established the precedent of the weapon costing different points for different statlines.
Plasma and Melta Guns both cost more for BS3+ than they do BS4+ in the Guard book.


Ok, the point i'm making is that the precedent you are referring to is foolish. That is the point I'm making. It should not work that way. You pay for the model, then you pay for the weapons. The BS of the model shouldn't influence the price of the weapons options.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Ok, the point i'm making is that the precedent you are referring to is foolish. That is the point I'm making. It should not work that way. You pay for the model, then you pay for the weapons. The BS of the model shouldn't influence the price of the weapons options.

GW disagrees. Personally, I do too.
   
Made in us
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 iGuy91 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

And you're ignoring the point I'm making.

They literally have established the precedent of the weapon costing different points for different statlines.
Plasma and Melta Guns both cost more for BS3+ than they do BS4+ in the Guard book.


Ok, the point i'm making is that the precedent you are referring to is foolish. That is the point I'm making. It should not work that way. You pay for the model, then you pay for the weapons. The BS of the model shouldn't influence the price of the weapons options.


It should though because each weapon has a stat that massively affects it's performance but isn't part of the 'package' when you buy a weapon - the ballistic skill. A lascanon is far more effective if you gave it to a custodes than if you gave it to a guardsman or an Ork. The only way the Guardsmen/Orks are going to get anywhere close to the same effectiveness is to take multiples, which is why the point discount. Note that flamers have a much more level point cost curve because the BS of the models is largely irrelevant.

When you pay for a HWT versus a devestator you are paying for a HW capable platform with different armor saves. It doesn't really consider if the model will be equipped with the long range high damage weapon like a lascannon or something more tame like a grenade launcher.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


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Made in us
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

And you're ignoring the point I'm making.

They literally have established the precedent of the weapon costing different points for different statlines.
Plasma and Melta Guns both cost more for BS3+ than they do BS4+ in the Guard book.

Which only makes sense if those BS4+ and BS3+ platforms cost the same. Otherwise, the weapon is worth the same amount. A 4 point Infantry with a 9 point Plasma Gun is better than a 13 point Marine with a 13 point Plasma Gun. Hands down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
But then why would a Power Sword on a Guardsman cost as much as a Power Sword on an SM Captain? One gets a gakton more value out of it.

It dissuades you from doing bad upgrades? Why should a Power Fist be cheaper on models that weren't meant to really take them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/24 18:32:49


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"It dissuades you from doing bad upgrades?"
So being overcosted is intended, to prevent players from picking overcosted options? That sounds silly.

"Why should a Power Fist be cheaper on models that weren't meant to really take them?"
What's to say the model shouldn't be taking it? I'd sure argue a Terminator gets less value out of a Powerfist than a Captain. Yet a Termie is more meant to take a Powerfist than a captain.
   
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Bharring wrote:
"It dissuades you from doing bad upgrades?"
So being overcosted is intended, to prevent players from picking overcosted options? That sounds silly.

"Why should a Power Fist be cheaper on models that weren't meant to really take them?"
What's to say the model shouldn't be taking it? I'd sure argue a Terminator gets less value out of a Powerfist than a Captain. Yet a Termie is more meant to take a Powerfist than a captain.

The system is busted in this sense. Which is why fixing it and some places and not others creates even worse imbalance.
A LC on a tactical marine is worth the least 25 points
A LC on a Dev Marine is worth more because of the signum - still costs 25 points
A LC on a preditor is worth more (harder to destroy) - still 25 points
A LC on a repusor is great - can move and shoot it - the most defense - still costs 25 points
A LC on a ven dread hits even better - still costs 25 points


So how does it make any sense to start dropping the point of the weapon as you move it down the line of units that can take it. It doesn't cost more on bs2+ platforms. It doesn't change cost based on the defense of the unit that is taking it. Yet It starts costing less in the IG codex for no reason - even those the 4+ to hit units that take them have practically no base cost.

OFC I am not arguing that LC HWT are any good (to easy to kill) but if you look at cost efficiency of damage. 3 HWT LC are super killy.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Gathering the Informations.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

And you're ignoring the point I'm making.

They literally have established the precedent of the weapon costing different points for different statlines.
Plasma and Melta Guns both cost more for BS3+ than they do BS4+ in the Guard book.

Which only makes sense if those BS4+ and BS3+ platforms cost the same. Otherwise, the weapon is worth the same amount. A 4 point Infantry with a 9 point Plasma Gun is better than a 13 point Marine with a 13 point Plasma Gun. Hands down.

Yes or no question:
Is the gun the same?

Yes or no question:
Are the platforms the same?

Yes or no question:
Is the availability of the weapon the same?

I can understand what you're getting at, but a 4 point Infantryman is hitting on 4s and there's only 1 plasma gun in the squad(mandatory 10 man size) alongside of 2 models potentially being tapped out to form a potential Heavy Weapons Team and a Sergeant toting a pistol(potentially a Plasma Pistol).
Compare that to a Tactical Squad: at the same unit size 1 model gets a Plasma Gun, another gets a Heavy Weapon, and the Marine Sergeant can bring a Combi-Plasma--and possibly a Plasma Pistol if you wanted to.
Or you can drop it down to a 5 man, get a plasma gun and the Sergeant can bring a Combi-Plasma.

Guard get more troops cheaply, but there's going to be less 'oomph' from a squad than a Marine Squad can bring.

Bharring wrote:
But then why would a Power Sword on a Guardsman cost as much as a Power Sword on an SM Captain? One gets a gakton more value out of it.

It dissuades you from doing bad upgrades? Why should a Power Fist be cheaper on models that weren't meant to really take them?

So why are they an option to begin with?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/24 19:30:30


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That isn't the point I'm trying to make.
I'm saying the HWT itself is priced fine. But the lascannons should cost the same. They are the same weapon/statline.
The points for the platform is baked into the basic 13 point cost of a marine or 6 point cost of a HWT. The guns are equal. They should cost the same.

And you're ignoring the point I'm making.

They literally have established the precedent of the weapon costing different points for different statlines.
Plasma and Melta Guns both cost more for BS3+ than they do BS4+ in the Guard book.

Which only makes sense if those BS4+ and BS3+ platforms cost the same. Otherwise, the weapon is worth the same amount. A 4 point Infantry with a 9 point Plasma Gun is better than a 13 point Marine with a 13 point Plasma Gun. Hands down.

Yes or no question:
Is the gun the same?

Yes or no question:
Are the platforms the same?

Yes or no question:
Is the availability of the weapon the same?

I can understand what you're getting at, but a 4 point Infantryman is hitting on 4s and there's only 1 plasma gun in the squad(mandatory 10 man size) alongside of 2 models potentially being tapped out to form a potential Heavy Weapons Team and a Sergeant toting a pistol(potentially a Plasma Pistol).
Compare that to a Tactical Squad: at the same unit size 1 model gets a Plasma Gun, another gets a Heavy Weapon, and the Marine Sergeant can bring a Combi-Plasma--and possibly a Plasma Pistol if you wanted to.
Or you can drop it down to a 5 man, get a plasma gun and the Sergeant can bring a Combi-Plasma.

Guard get more troops cheaply, but there's going to be less 'oomph' from a squad than a Marine Squad can bring.

Bharring wrote:
But then why would a Power Sword on a Guardsman cost as much as a Power Sword on an SM Captain? One gets a gakton more value out of it.

It dissuades you from doing bad upgrades? Why should a Power Fist be cheaper on models that weren't meant to really take them?

So why are they an option to begin with?

My point is they shouldn't be options. Power Fists weren't ever good on a Tactical Marine Sergeant. They might as well remove the entry. If you just keep making it cheaper it becomes a non-option and then it's silly not to take it.

Also I LOL at the notion you presented with the Marines getting a Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma. That's 93 points.

With Infantry getting cheaper weapons and being cheaper on top of that, they can get 2 Plasma Guns and 2 Heavy Bolters for that much.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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