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Here are my ideas for simple changes to Orks, that I think will fit in well with their characteristics (the ethos behind them), will be quick and easy to modify and will not involve complicated stratagems and "benefits" which may turn out to have
great anomolies anyway, which will then need further tinkering.

All Orks Move 7 inches (They are big, beefy "beasts" and can move as fast as Grizzlys when they need to)
All Orks have a basic Armour Save of 4+ (Once again, they are built like Grizzlys. so have that basic, inbuilt toughness)

What if we try these changes first and see how this all pans out in actual games?

These are all basic values and do not prevent "specialist" Orks having different, higher values.

Not bad for a basic Ork, but when implemented across multiple squads of 20+, it becomes a bit OP. Would be better to make it a Clan trait.

From a mechanical perspective, I like the &" movement. Orks as a footslogging assault army should be viable. On the other hand, 7" is the average movement value for an eldar, and I firmly believe that eldar should be significantly faster than an ork.

4+ armor should definitely be an option ('ard boyz/ 'eavy armor), but it shouldn't be free. The best way to deal with a mob of orkz is quantity of fire. Weapons with lots of shots usually have poor AP. Should a 6(?) point model really be ignoring half the wounds you generate against him?

All I want for Orks in terms of broad mechanical changes is the ability to always hit on the unmodified roll of a 6.

Aside from that, they just need "Klan Taktiks" and some points decreases, and I expect we'd have a decent army on our hands.

We can't have T4 4+ saves for 6 pts. It just isn't viable. Particularly with the damage output of Boys.

We need to pay for that 4+ save, if it is implemented (either in points or with a stratagem).

If we were to add a rule for all infantry to increase survivability, I think it should be a 6+++. It won't happen too often for it to become overbearing but it fits in with the Ork nature of shrugging off attacks that should outright kill them.

The more I think about it the more I think the whole bs5+ thing isn’t right and isn’t fair for ORKS. They should be able to shoot stuff and it makes them too one dimensional. People keep coming up with ways to mitigate it (even GW in kill team) but it’s basically too weak for ORKS. I miss the first edition and second edition where my ORKS could shoot. When third came out I thought it was too much then and it’s worse as they have progressed through editions. I know people have either gotten used to this or only known it but it would instantly make them much more playable in different ways.

Andykp wrote:
The more I think about it the more I think the whole bs5+ thing isn’t right and isn’t fair for ORKS. They should be able to shoot stuff and it makes them too one dimensional. People keep coming up with ways to mitigate it (even GW in kill team) but it’s basically too weak for ORKS. I miss the first edition and second edition where my ORKS could shoot. When third came out I thought it was too much then and it’s worse as they have progressed through editions. I know people have either gotten used to this or only known it but it would instantly make them much more playable in different ways.

especially since GW keeps inventing more and more ranged weapons for us to use....or really, not use.

Dave the Walrus wrote:
Here are my ideas for simple changes to Orks, that I think will fit in well with their characteristics (the ethos behind them), will be quick and easy to modify and will not involve complicated stratagems and "benefits" which may turn out to have
great anomolies anyway, which will then need further tinkering.

All Orks Move 7 inches (They are big, beefy "beasts" and can move as fast as Grizzlys when they need to)
All Orks have a basic Armour Save of 4+ (Once again, they are built like Grizzlys. so have that basic, inbuilt toughness)

What if we try these changes first and see how this all pans out in actual games?

These are all basic values and do not prevent "specialist" Orks having different, higher values.

ok first of all 6 inches of movement can cover normal humans yes but iut can cover space Marines whom are pretty universally described as very fast. Second of all, armor represents armor, TOUGHNESS represents toughness

Give orks BS:4+ base, however give them a special rule so they have -1 to hit when there is say 11+ of them - as they get a bit over excited in large groups and lose focus of what they are doing.

Makes the specialists good, without making the mobs into a gun line, big units that get whittled down regain a bit of focus

Movement of 5" is fine given just about every weapon they have is an assault one anyway, so in practice they are move 5+1d6" not move 5"

Bring back 'ard boyz with a 4+ save, for a few more points - stick them as an elite slot.

Bring in pure close combat orks, twin choppa, possibly at 5 points each, but ideally at the same cost but with another bonus of some sort (they have the +1 attack from the choppa so maybe give them a charge bonus, or allow exploding hits on a 6+) - point is to allow fantasy orks for 'primatives', again perhaps as an elite choice - with say Snakebites moving them to troops.

Allow the two above to be combined with what amounts to black orks, choice of two choppa with the above bonus, or a single big choppa at S5 or something.

Allow a few more grot units, the idea of grots who have only sticks and clubs appeals

leopard wrote:
Give orks BS:4+ base, however give them a special rule so they have -1 to hit when there is say 11+ of them - as they get a bit over excited in large groups and lose focus of what they are doing.

Makes the specialists good, without making the mobs into a gun line, big units that get whittled down regain a bit of focus

Movement of 5" is fine given just about every weapon they have is an assault one anyway, so in practice they are move 5+1d6" not move 5"

Bring back 'ard boyz with a 4+ save, for a few more points - stick them as an elite slot.

Bring in pure close combat orks, twin choppa, possibly at 5 points each, but ideally at the same cost but with another bonus of some sort (they have the +1 attack from the choppa so maybe give them a charge bonus, or allow exploding hits on a 6+) - point is to allow fantasy orks for 'primatives', again perhaps as an elite choice - with say Snakebites moving them to troops.

Allow the two above to be combined with what amounts to black orks, choice of two choppa with the above bonus, or a single big choppa at S5 or something.

Allow a few more grot units, the idea of grots who have only sticks and clubs appeals

I like a lot of that. Some thoughts:

* I kind of feel like 5" + 1d6" is still kind of slow when a footslogging green tide should probably be a viable option. I know my ork buddies get irritated every time they remember that their assault army moves slower than shooty armies like guard.

* 'Ard boyz should be a unit option for sure. I'm not sure they need to into the elite slot. Let someone fill out a batallion with more expensive but more durable troops, I say.

* I like the idea of a pure choppa squad, but I also feel like it would likely end up being a completely superior choice over choppa/slugga boyz as you're (theoretically) not paying for the baked-in pistol cost. Pistols tend not to make much of a difference, so shaving, let's say, 1 point off of each model for a pistol that wasn't going to make its points back in exchange for more ork bodies seems like an easy choice.

* I really like the idea of "primal orks" being a staple of a snakebitez army, but moving units to the troops slot has clearly fallen out of favor as a design choice this edition. So a good idea, but one which would feel antiquated. "Good" versus "proper."

* Would this hypothetical strength 5 choppa actually have a mathematic niche? I know that many similar options in the past (biting blades versus chain sabres, mirror swords versus executioners, the two modes of demiklaives) are typically traps choices where one of the two options is the better option in almost every situation. I haven't run the math, so I'm not sure.

* Stick + club grots would run into a similar problem as the strength 5 choppa and the no-dakka ork boy. You risk either having the clubs do something and be a strictly better/worse choice than the dakka-toting variants, or you risk making one of the two options cheaper on a unit whose offense is low enough that they'll take cheap over "good" every time.

Wyldhunt wrote:

leopard wrote:
Give orks BS:4+ base, however give them a special rule so they have -1 to hit when there is say 11+ of them - as they get a bit over excited in large groups and lose focus of what they are doing.

Makes the specialists good, without making the mobs into a gun line, big units that get whittled down regain a bit of focus

Movement of 5" is fine given just about every weapon they have is an assault one anyway, so in practice they are move 5+1d6" not move 5"

Bring back 'ard boyz with a 4+ save, for a few more points - stick them as an elite slot.

Bring in pure close combat orks, twin choppa, possibly at 5 points each, but ideally at the same cost but with another bonus of some sort (they have the +1 attack from the choppa so maybe give them a charge bonus, or allow exploding hits on a 6+) - point is to allow fantasy orks for 'primatives', again perhaps as an elite choice - with say Snakebites moving them to troops.

Allow the two above to be combined with what amounts to black orks, choice of two choppa with the above bonus, or a single big choppa at S5 or something.

Allow a few more grot units, the idea of grots who have only sticks and clubs appeals

I like a lot of that. Some thoughts:

* I kind of feel like 5" + 1d6" is still kind of slow when a footslogging green tide should probably be a viable option. I know my ork buddies get irritated every time they remember that their assault army moves slower than shooty armies like guard.

Was more an observation but I've not found boyz to be that slow, mine are generally always advancing and it usually comes out in the wash, throw in a "move again" strategem and it works pretty well I think, I think of it not so much as orks being actually slower, but a case of them wasting time not actually going in the desired direction.

May be a case for some of the smaller units to be M:6 though, say Kommandos?

* 'Ard boyz should be a unit option for sure. I'm not sure they need to into the elite slot. Let someone fill out a batallion with more expensive but more durable troops, I say.

Thinking they should be somewhat limited, you can always run an elite detachment, trying to make them slightly different from something you do to upgrade boyz, but a slightly different unit

* I like the idea of a pure choppa squad, but I also feel like it would likely end up being a completely superior choice over choppa/slugga boyz as you're (theoretically) not paying for the baked-in pistol cost. Pistols tend not to make much of a difference, so shaving, let's say, 1 point off of each model for a pistol that wasn't going to make its points back in exchange for more ork bodies seems like an easy choice.

You may have to make the second choppa "cost" the same as the slugga so they are no cheaper, but keep in mind that stuff they can't charge they can't hurt (units on top floors of ruins etc), maybe also not "no more than one unit for every unit armed differently"

* I really like the idea of "primal orks" being a staple of a snakebitez army, but moving units to the troops slot has clearly fallen out of favor as a design choice this edition. So a good idea, but one which would feel antiquated. "Good" versus "proper."

its a pity this sort of stuff has gone out of fashion, was a mechanic I liked

* Would this hypothetical strength 5 choppa actually have a mathematic niche? I know that many similar options in the past (biting blades versus chain sabres, mirror swords versus executioners, the two modes of demiklaives) are typically traps choices where one of the two options is the better option in almost every situation. I haven't run the math, so I'm not sure.

No run the numbers on it, its more a case of having the option and it being something Black Orks can do that others cannot, even if its only useful one game in ten there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a 'trap' choice thats easy to use wrong

* Stick + club grots would run into a similar problem as the strength 5 choppa and the no-dakka ork boy. You risk either having the clubs do something and be a strictly better/worse choice than the dakka-toting variants, or you risk making one of the two options cheaper on a unit whose offense is low enough that they'll take cheap over "good" every time.

again likely should be the same cost, the lack of a ranged attack (especially since you drop "dangerous in large numbers") should make them slightly cheaper, but likely not down to 2 points, maybe 2.75, since the game doesn't have that likely to stick at 3. The trick is, as with the pure combat orks, to make them different and allow them to do different things so you would likely want a mix and going pure one way or the other is missing out on capabilities.

Idea is really to allow you to do something else, that works, but works differently

I have a way to impact ballistic skill without making it unfair.


If your firing:

12 inches or less BS3

30 or less BS4

30 plus BS 5

ballzonya wrote:
I have a way to impact ballistic skill without making it unfair.


If your firing:

12 inches or less BS3

30 or less BS4

30 plus BS 5

Ideal of range based modifiers are decent it has to be said, but with a D6 system essentially require everyone to be BS3+ or BS4+ to start with (i.e. everyone is BS:4+, with some elite units getting a baked in +1), otherwise the impact is skewed too much.

I like the idea though, but would have the range bands as 0-12, 12-24 and 24+, to fit with the majority of the weapon ranges

ORKS are supposed to be genetically engineered soldiers who can colonise and thrive in any environment and be totally self sufficient whilst waging a total war against any foe. They should be able to shoot at least at a basic trained level (BS4+). They live to fight, it’s their bread and butter.

My fix. Bs 4+. Warboss and big mek , 3+. M6”.

No modifiers for range, their weapons are shorter ranged anywaŷ and long ranged ones are used by people who are specialists. No modifiers for numbers. ORKS get more dangerous in large numbers not less. Simple.

I think GW will just do hit on a natural 6.

I would love to see them back to being scary tough warriors who can fight all round. Not one dimensional thugs.

Andykp wrote:
ORKS are supposed to be genetically engineered soldiers who can colonise and thrive in any environment and be totally self sufficient whilst waging a total war against any foe. They should be able to shoot at least at a basic trained level (BS4+). They live to fight, it’s their bread and butter.

My fix. Bs 4+. Warboss and big mek , 3+. M6”.

No modifiers for range, their weapons are shorter ranged anywaŷ and long ranged ones are used by people who are specialists. No modifiers for numbers. ORKS get more dangerous in large numbers not less. Simple.

I think GW will just do hit on a natural 6.

I would love to see them back to being scary tough warriors who can fight all round. Not one dimensional thugs.

Yup, every rules update so far has been rather uninspired so I am not holding my breath. But if GW surprises us I will be singing their praises

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We can't have T4 4+ saves for 6 pts. It just isn't viable. Particularly with the damage output of Boys.

We need to pay for that 4+ save, if it is implemented (either in points or with a stratagem).

If we were to add a rule for all infantry to increase survivability, I think it should be a 6+++. It won't happen too often for it to become overbearing but it fits in with the Ork nature of shrugging off attacks that should outright kill them.

Hopefully you don't mean FNP type with that 6+++. Do you imagine pain of rolling all those FNP's with multi damage weapons?-) It's bad enough with less of a horde army. For 200 model ork army...

Flat out inv save rather than FNP TYVM. That at least can be rolled quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
ORKS are supposed to be genetically engineered soldiers who can colonise and thrive in any environment and be totally self sufficient whilst waging a total war against any foe. They should be able to shoot at least at a basic trained level (BS4+). They live to fight, it’s their bread and butter.

My fix. Bs 4+. Warboss and big mek , 3+. M6”.

No modifiers for range, their weapons are shorter ranged anywaŷ and long ranged ones are used by people who are specialists. No modifiers for numbers. ORKS get more dangerous in large numbers not less. Simple.

I think GW will just do hit on a natural 6.

I would love to see them back to being scary tough warriors who can fight all round. Not one dimensional thugs.

And how much points you would point orks with them?

Funny though. Orks generally are referred as horde army but this would take them far from that.

I preferred ORKS when whey weren’t a horde army. So that would be fine with me. Non horde armies have more character. I don’t use points to play, I’m a power level guy so I would say 7 or 8 power rating for 10 ORKS. Off the top of my head. The rules for the mob bonus might need changing. Clan rules too would change the character of the units too if I had my way. Goffs for example could change back to old style boyz.

I believe if they go bs4+ they should drop to WS 4+.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We can't have T4 4+ saves for 6 pts. It just isn't viable. Particularly with the damage output of Boys.

We need to pay for that 4+ save, if it is implemented (either in points or with a stratagem).

If we were to add a rule for all infantry to increase survivability, I think it should be a 6+++. It won't happen too often for it to become overbearing but it fits in with the Ork nature of shrugging off attacks that should outright kill them.

Hopefully you don't mean FNP type with that 6+++. Do you imagine pain of rolling all those FNP's with multi damage weapons?-) It's bad enough with less of a horde army. For 200 model ork army...

Flat out inv save rather than FNP TYVM. That at least can be rolled quickly.

Get a dice app! Yea I meant a FNP.

I kinda would like to see more subfaction diversification, depending on the warboss instead of the klan.
Lore wise the warboss/bigmek/ other type of head honcho that leads the army is more relevant in it's behaviour then the klans making up the army.

Basically, if someone takes a bigmek the following options should apear:
Kan army making the smaller grot walkers into troops.
Maybee, just maybee, if the Bigmek get's a killakopta that you can upgrade him to a flymek. Additionally the option to buy gitsearchas (+1bs for for vehicles, orkboyz, cannons and tanks)

Maybee a maddok as a HQ that would allow for upgraded boyz, maybee better bs / t / armor (wholly depends)

Warboss with a bike for Speed cults --> bringing basic bikers to troops.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I kinda would like to see more subfaction diversification, depending on the warboss instead of the klan.
Lore wise the warboss/bigmek/ other type of head honcho that leads the army is more relevant in it's behaviour then the klans making up the army.

Basically, if someone takes a bigmek the following options should apear:
Kan army making the smaller grot walkers into troops.
Maybee, just maybee, if the Bigmek get's a killakopta that you can upgrade him to a flymek. Additionally the option to buy gitsearchas (+1bs for for vehicles, orkboyz, cannons and tanks)

Maybee a maddok as a HQ that would allow for upgraded boyz, maybee better bs / t / armor (wholly depends)

Warboss with a bike for Speed cults --> bringing basic bikers to troops.

Kind of like what they used to do with Orkz. Nobz could be troops, Warbikes could be troops etc etc.

Grot gunners on vehicles.
Grot snipers.
Ork BS 4+ tankbustas/lootas/flash gitz

I get that average boy doesn't aim, but the heavy weapon ranged specialists probably should