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So forge world just put up a list to use Gene stealer cults in Necromunda. So just wondering what are peoples thoughts? Are they a good group to take? I kind of like the idea of having one "unit" i can use in both kill team and in Necromunda. But are the lists for them going to be able to match up?

GSC in Necromunda is not a new thing. The list was already published in WD along with a lot of errors. I would advise you to go to yaktribe and take a look at their errata or look for an official FAQ from GW.

 Strg Alt wrote:
GSC in Necromunda is not a new thing. The list was already published in WD along with a lot of errors. I would advise you to go to yaktribe and take a look at their errata or look for an official FAQ from GW.

He is referring to the brand new, vastly improved list that just got posted. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Genesteal-Cult-Download.pdf shoop da whoop!

to the OP's question, Necromunda GSC are indeed compatible with Kill Team GSC, though they are a more in-depth list that includes equipment from the guard cross-kit (they have Lasgun weaponry) as well as gear intended to allow you to use the Magus or Primus models as well (usually as your Leader in necromunda) so they have access to Power Swords and Shock Staffs as well as psychic powers if you choose your leader to be an "adept" (which can use the Magus model).

necromunda is basically a much more non-restrictive and conversion friendly list, allowing you to get SUPER custom with your gang if you like. Also, the Heavy Weapon hybrids from the Neophyte kit are technically counted as "hybrid acolytes" in the necromunda list, because the acolytes and leader are the only ones who can take the Heavy guns. On the plus side, they're awesome and get 3+ BS, so you'd want them to be acolytes anyway.

Basically if you build a list that's legal in Kill Team it'll be legal in Necromunda, but if you build a list that's legal in Necromunda, it may not be legal in Kill Team.

Just read the new list. They have included a new leader alongside the Adept. Aberrants can now earn XP. New psychic powers and models can now actually be equipped with a third arm. That´s good news.

One thing they did not correct is the movement stat of 4 of some models. The default move stat of a N17 ganger is 5 and to give a race which is known for it´s lightning speed a lower move stat just sounds ridiculous. They also did not alter the wound stat of the Acolyte which is 1. The Acolyte is a Champion equivalent and every Champion in N17 has 2 wounds. So another error imo.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just read the new list. They have included a new leader alongside the Adept. Aberrants can now earn XP. New psychic powers and models can now actually be equipped with a third arm. That´s good news.

One thing they did not correct is the movement stat of 4 of some models. The default move stat of a N17 ganger is 5 and to give a race which is known for it´s lightning speed a lower move stat just sounds ridiculous. They also did not alter the wound stat of the Acolyte which is 1. The Acolyte is a Champion equivalent and every Champion in N17 has 2 wounds. So another error imo.

So, in your eyes, any disadvantage is an "error"?

Genestealers are known for their lightning speed. Genestealer cultists are known for their infiltration - all the GSC infantry units in normal 40k move no faster than other regular infantry. I can definitely see the 4" move on acolytes being intended to offset their access to the Infiltrate skill straight off the bat, if they had 6" movement, usually what's given to 'faster than average' models in necromunda, they'd be able to basically guarantee theyd be in combat with their first activation.

Low speed and durability is the disadvantage of the acolytes, access to arguably the best skill tree as Primary and the third arm which is basically old busted Bulging Biceps is their biggest advantage. They also get Goliath level Cool and BS/WS3+, while most champs just get one or the other at 3+.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just read the new list. They have included a new leader alongside the Adept. Aberrants can now earn XP. New psychic powers and models can now actually be equipped with a third arm. That´s good news.

One thing they did not correct is the movement stat of 4 of some models. The default move stat of a N17 ganger is 5 and to give a race which is known for it´s lightning speed a lower move stat just sounds ridiculous. They also did not alter the wound stat of the Acolyte which is 1. The Acolyte is a Champion equivalent and every Champion in N17 has 2 wounds. So another error imo.

So, in your eyes, any disadvantage is an "error"?

Genestealers are known for their lightning speed. Genestealer cultists are known for their infiltration - all the GSC infantry units in normal 40k move no faster than other regular infantry. I can definitely see the 4" move on acolytes being intended to offset their access to the Infiltrate skill straight off the bat, if they had 6" movement, usually what's given to 'faster than average' models in necromunda, they'd be able to basically guarantee theyd be in combat with their first activation.

Low speed and durability is the disadvantage of the acolytes, access to arguably the best skill tree as Primary and the third arm which is basically old busted Bulging Biceps is their biggest advantage. They also get Goliath level Cool and BS/WS3+, while most champs just get one or the other at 3+.

No, the move & wound stat differences are not disadvantages. They are real errors which will be houseruled in our group. Take the Aberrant as an example. It is a brute like a Goliath. Goliath have move 4 and an even stronger Aberrant has a move of 5. I would give all GS cultists a move of 5 and leave the Aberrant with a move of 4 because it makes sense.
The wound stat of the Acolyte will also be increased to 2 in our group because every Champion in the game so far (even the Chaos Cult) has 2 wounds.

You want some disadvantages for the GSC? They have a few. Here we go:
-GSC models are more worth to the guilders when sold as slaves.
-GSC can´t sell captives to guilders because it would jeopardize the cover of the cult.
-Escorting GSC members to the Doc is more expensive to ensure the Doc´s silence. This is a real painful disadvantage.

I just spotted another mistake. The GSC has an improved Hangers-On table which need to be nerfed as well.

Not a mistake. That's confirmed by Jonathan Taylor_Yorke on the Necromunda 2017 Facebook group as deliberate.

Also, this new version of the cult is written with the Dominion campaign system from Gang War 4 in mind. Bear that in mind when looking at the new list.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not a mistake. That's confirmed by Jonathan Taylor_Yorke on the Necromunda 2017 Facebook group as deliberate.

What exactly is not a mistake? You have to be more specific. Also I am not familiar with the Dominion campaign system. What´s so special about it?

What's special about the Dominion campaign? I don't know. It is significantly [I/]different[/I] to the Turf War in Gang War 1, though - your post-battle income is based on territories held rather than the number of Champions available, for example (I can't remember if selling captives to the Guild is a thing in Dominion, either). The Hangers-on table is different in a Dominion campaign to that in a Turf War campaign, and the Genestealer Cult Hangers On table is deliberately different to that.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
What's special about the Dominion campaign? I don't know. It is significantly [I/]different[/I] to the Turf War in Gang War 1, though - your post-battle income is based on territories held rather than the number of Champions available, for example (I can't remember if selling captives to the Guild is a thing in Dominion, either). The Hangers-on table is different in a Dominion campaign to that in a Turf War campaign, and the Genestealer Cult Hangers On table is deliberately different to that.

Working Turf: Lol! We houseruled this immediately when we began our campaign. It just didn´t make sense that you could work the same turf multiple times with different dudes/dudettes.
Selling captives: Why wouldn´t it be allowed? This makes no sense.
Hanger´s on table: It is only slightly different than in GW so it is just a typo.

And what is not a mistake? The mentioned move & wound stats?

 Strg Alt wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just read the new list. They have included a new leader alongside the Adept. Aberrants can now earn XP. New psychic powers and models can now actually be equipped with a third arm. That´s good news.

One thing they did not correct is the movement stat of 4 of some models. The default move stat of a N17 ganger is 5 and to give a race which is known for it´s lightning speed a lower move stat just sounds ridiculous. They also did not alter the wound stat of the Acolyte which is 1. The Acolyte is a Champion equivalent and every Champion in N17 has 2 wounds. So another error imo.

So, in your eyes, any disadvantage is an "error"?

Genestealers are known for their lightning speed. Genestealer cultists are known for their infiltration - all the GSC infantry units in normal 40k move no faster than other regular infantry. I can definitely see the 4" move on acolytes being intended to offset their access to the Infiltrate skill straight off the bat, if they had 6" movement, usually what's given to 'faster than average' models in necromunda, they'd be able to basically guarantee theyd be in combat with their first activation.

Low speed and durability is the disadvantage of the acolytes, access to arguably the best skill tree as Primary and the third arm which is basically old busted Bulging Biceps is their biggest advantage. They also get Goliath level Cool and BS/WS3+, while most champs just get one or the other at 3+.

No, the move & wound stat differences are not disadvantages. They are real errors which will be houseruled in our group. Take the Aberrant as an example. It is a brute like a Goliath. Goliath have move 4 and an even stronger Aberrant has a move of 5. I would give all GS cultists a move of 5 and leave the Aberrant with a move of 4 because it makes sense.
The wound stat of the Acolyte will also be increased to 2 in our group because every Champion in the game so far (even the Chaos Cult) has 2 wounds.

You want some disadvantages for the GSC? They have a few. Here we go:
-GSC models are more worth to the guilders when sold as slaves.
-GSC can´t sell captives to guilders because it would jeopardize the cover of the cult.
-Escorting GSC members to the Doc is more expensive to ensure the Doc´s silence. This is a real painful disadvantage.

I just spotted another mistake. The GSC has an improved Hangers-On table which need to be nerfed as well.

You really do seem to be confusing "error" with "thing that is different that you disagree with for fluff reasons"

Orlock champions are only WS4+, despite being able to take melee equipment and ferocity skills! This is an error and they will be increased to WS3+ in my group. Additionally, eschers are described as a very fast agile gang, but have the same move stats as orlocks, delaques and van saars! this is clearly an error and we will make sure to correct it to the 6"/7" it should be in my group.

An error is something that legitimately does not work in the rules - for example, Third Arm having rules and a points cost but having no way to actually buy them in the old rules, or Toxin making your weapon worse in the original rules of the game. If something still works, but is just different, how can you differentiate between it just being different, or being an actual error?

you list the improved Hangers On table as an error, but call out the rules for taking hostages as an intended disadvantage. How do you know that the hangers-on table is not an intended advantage, representing the cult's high levels of influence over people? How do you know the hostage rule isn't just an error?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just read the new list. They have included a new leader alongside the Adept. Aberrants can now earn XP. New psychic powers and models can now actually be equipped with a third arm. That´s good news.

One thing they did not correct is the movement stat of 4 of some models. The default move stat of a N17 ganger is 5 and to give a race which is known for it´s lightning speed a lower move stat just sounds ridiculous. They also did not alter the wound stat of the Acolyte which is 1. The Acolyte is a Champion equivalent and every Champion in N17 has 2 wounds. So another error imo.

So, in your eyes, any disadvantage is an "error"?

Genestealers are known for their lightning speed. Genestealer cultists are known for their infiltration - all the GSC infantry units in normal 40k move no faster than other regular infantry. I can definitely see the 4" move on acolytes being intended to offset their access to the Infiltrate skill straight off the bat, if they had 6" movement, usually what's given to 'faster than average' models in necromunda, they'd be able to basically guarantee theyd be in combat with their first activation.

Low speed and durability is the disadvantage of the acolytes, access to arguably the best skill tree as Primary and the third arm which is basically old busted Bulging Biceps is their biggest advantage. They also get Goliath level Cool and BS/WS3+, while most champs just get one or the other at 3+.

No, the move & wound stat differences are not disadvantages. They are real errors which will be houseruled in our group. Take the Aberrant as an example. It is a brute like a Goliath. Goliath have move 4 and an even stronger Aberrant has a move of 5. I would give all GS cultists a move of 5 and leave the Aberrant with a move of 4 because it makes sense.
The wound stat of the Acolyte will also be increased to 2 in our group because every Champion in the game so far (even the Chaos Cult) has 2 wounds.

You want some disadvantages for the GSC? They have a few. Here we go:
-GSC models are more worth to the guilders when sold as slaves.
-GSC can´t sell captives to guilders because it would jeopardize the cover of the cult.
-Escorting GSC members to the Doc is more expensive to ensure the Doc´s silence. This is a real painful disadvantage.

I just spotted another mistake. The GSC has an improved Hangers-On table which need to be nerfed as well.

You really do seem to be confusing "error" with "thing that is different that you disagree with for fluff reasons"

Orlock champions are only WS4+, despite being able to take melee equipment and ferocity skills! This is an error and they will be increased to WS3+ in my group. Additionally, eschers are described as a very fast agile gang, but have the same move stats as orlocks, delaques and van saars! this is clearly an error and we will make sure to correct it to the 6"/7" it should be in my group.

An error is something that legitimately does not work in the rules - for example, Third Arm having rules and a points cost but having no way to actually buy them in the old rules, or Toxin making your weapon worse in the original rules of the game. If something still works, but is just different, how can you differentiate between it just being different, or being an actual error?

you list the improved Hangers On table as an error, but call out the rules for taking hostages as an intended disadvantage. How do you know that the hangers-on table is not an intended advantage, representing the cult's high levels of influence over people? How do you know the hostage rule isn't just an error?

If you are playing tabletop games for more than twenty years like me, you´ll just notice what works and what not. Take a look over at yaktribe. There are also a lot of people who felt that the move stat was an error. Besides that, you can change any rules with good reason in your group. Try it out, it will surely improve your hobby time instead of slavishly follow ill-written stuff.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not a mistake. That's confirmed by Jonathan Taylor_Yorke on the Necromunda 2017 Facebook group as deliberate.

Also, this new version of the cult is written with the Dominion campaign system from Gang War 4 in mind. Bear that in mind when looking at the new list.

If a game designer says it's not a mistake then it's not a mistake. Looking forward to messing around with list ideas. Think I'll take the advice and work on my Necromunda list first then make it Kill team legal second.

Another big difference to keep in mind between Kill Team and Necromunda, which i'm surprised nobody mentioned, is available units - Metamorphs and Purestrain Genestealers don't exist in Necromunda gangs, while they are both available (and i'd imagine pretty significant) in Kill Team.

The Genestealer Cult as depicted in this list is a small offshoot group setting up in Hiver Primus. I expect if we see a supplement covering the situation in Hive Secundus that the more ... obvious cult members might make a showing. But that campaign style will, again, be very different I expect (essentially your gangs would be away from the levels of official support you get in the Turf War and Dominion campaigns, so you might see no Trading Post, and the whole thing could be a more difficult last man standing type of affair, or time-limited where each gang has a specific objective to complete).

In Necromunda, you can choose from around 100-150 different weapons + various equipment/armour/grenades.

Your acolytes and adept can all have multi-melta and thunder hammer if you wish... don't think you find that level of configuration in kill team.

 Strg Alt wrote:
If you are playing tabletop games for more than twenty years like me,you´ll just notice what works and what not. Take a look over at yaktribe. There are also a lot of people who felt that the move stat was an error. Besides that, you can change any rules with good reason in your group. Try it out, it will surely improve your hobby time instead of slavishly follow ill-written stuff.

Really? Only twenty years? That's cute, Charlie Brown.

Me? Umm, let's see...Approaching age 60, minus my first tender 14 years, give or take. Oh, crap!

Maybe, when you play tabletop games for another 20 years, you'll know the difference between "what works and what not," and your own pet peeves. Because the first GSC "worked." But, was poorly written. I work with what's given to me, and work around "ill-written stuff" (like their first attempt at Third-Arm rules). But, I don't look to "improve" my hobby time by "fixing" my pet peeves. That's precisely what I don't like about Yaktribe (though, I do LOVE their gang tracking tools).

Oh, and from one Old Guy to a wannabe Old Guy, "I'm smarter than you," is a weak argument. Kids these days think they were born smart, and the rest of us only get dumber with advancing age. Blame the Internets, and confounded Smart Phones, and them damn Apps.

 Strg Alt wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just read the new list. They have included a new leader alongside the Adept. Aberrants can now earn XP. New psychic powers and models can now actually be equipped with a third arm. That´s good news.

One thing they did not correct is the movement stat of 4 of some models. The default move stat of a N17 ganger is 5 and to give a race which is known for it´s lightning speed a lower move stat just sounds ridiculous. They also did not alter the wound stat of the Acolyte which is 1. The Acolyte is a Champion equivalent and every Champion in N17 has 2 wounds. So another error imo.

So, in your eyes, any disadvantage is an "error"?

Genestealers are known for their lightning speed. Genestealer cultists are known for their infiltration - all the GSC infantry units in normal 40k move no faster than other regular infantry. I can definitely see the 4" move on acolytes being intended to offset their access to the Infiltrate skill straight off the bat, if they had 6" movement, usually what's given to 'faster than average' models in necromunda, they'd be able to basically guarantee theyd be in combat with their first activation.

Low speed and durability is the disadvantage of the acolytes, access to arguably the best skill tree as Primary and the third arm which is basically old busted Bulging Biceps is their biggest advantage. They also get Goliath level Cool and BS/WS3+, while most champs just get one or the other at 3+.

No, the move & wound stat differences are not disadvantages. They are real errors which will be houseruled in our group. Take the Aberrant as an example. It is a brute like a Goliath. Goliath have move 4 and an even stronger Aberrant has a move of 5. I would give all GS cultists a move of 5 and leave the Aberrant with a move of 4 because it makes sense.
The wound stat of the Acolyte will also be increased to 2 in our group because every Champion in the game so far (even the Chaos Cult) has 2 wounds.

You want some disadvantages for the GSC? They have a few. Here we go:
-GSC models are more worth to the guilders when sold as slaves.
-GSC can´t sell captives to guilders because it would jeopardize the cover of the cult.
-Escorting GSC members to the Doc is more expensive to ensure the Doc´s silence. This is a real painful disadvantage.

I just spotted another mistake. The GSC has an improved Hangers-On table which need to be nerfed as well.

You really do seem to be confusing "error" with "thing that is different that you disagree with for fluff reasons"

Orlock champions are only WS4+, despite being able to take melee equipment and ferocity skills! This is an error and they will be increased to WS3+ in my group. Additionally, eschers are described as a very fast agile gang, but have the same move stats as orlocks, delaques and van saars! this is clearly an error and we will make sure to correct it to the 6"/7" it should be in my group.

An error is something that legitimately does not work in the rules - for example, Third Arm having rules and a points cost but having no way to actually buy them in the old rules, or Toxin making your weapon worse in the original rules of the game. If something still works, but is just different, how can you differentiate between it just being different, or being an actual error?

you list the improved Hangers On table as an error, but call out the rules for taking hostages as an intended disadvantage. How do you know that the hangers-on table is not an intended advantage, representing the cult's high levels of influence over people? How do you know the hostage rule isn't just an error?

If you are playing tabletop games for more than twenty years like me, you´ll just notice what works and what not. Take a look over at yaktribe. There are also a lot of people who felt that the move stat was an error. Besides that, you can change any rules with good reason in your group. Try it out, it will surely improve your hobby time instead of slavishly follow ill-written stuff.

Regardless of whether you are right, that is the most patronising thing I've read on here in a while!

As someone who has been playing wargames for more than thirty years like me, you'll be aware that unless your group is tiny, the best way to maintain a consensus on rules is to have as few houserules as possible, and try to limit them to obvious errors to avoid dispute. Even the toxin issue divided members of my campaign. Try sticking to the rules as much as possible, it will surely make it easier to avoid disagreement unless your group is tiny.

It doesn't seem right that all have M4" but Alpha and Aberrant have M5". It makes more sense for all to have M5" (standard human movement) and the Aberrant to have big hulking slow M4" like Goliath or the Ambot.

However, Van Saar have M4" so it's not the first time human-like models have M4".

The developers have "confirmed" a lot of things, that doesn't make much sense always. Like when they "confirmed" that bionics would be cheaper than repairing the damage with advancements (pre-bionics). It is a very simple calculation to see that is simply not true.

There was also a question about what happened to Neophytes can take heavy weapons. The devs answered "Nope. Only acolytes can take heavy weapons". That is also simply not true, both the adept and alpha can have heavy weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:

As someone who has been playing wargames for more than thirty years like me, you'll be aware that unless your group is tiny, the best way to maintain a consensus on rules is to have as few houserules as possible, and try to limit them to obvious errors to avoid dispute. Even the toxin issue divided members of my campaign. Try sticking to the rules as much as possible, it will surely make it easier to avoid disagreement unless your group is tiny.

There was large consensus about M4" being an error in the original white dwarf version. Some speculated it was copy-paste error from Shadow War armageddon. That was before Van Saar though, and now some fighters are given M5", so it's much less of an obvious error.

N17 as a whole is however full of obvious errors that require house rulings. Like the large amount of inconsistent weapon profiles you could find, even within the same book! And other basic things like scenarios that just didn't make sense at all (winning condition, rewards etc). Almost all of the rules are reprinted again and again (Gang War books, skills, armoury, trading post, scenarios, house weapon lists) or simply left for dead (large parts of the core rulebook) because of all the errors and changes.

Baxx wrote:
It doesn't seem right that all have M4" but Alpha and Aberrant have M5". It makes more sense for all to have M5" (standard human movement) and the Aberrant to have big hulking slow M4" like Goliath or the Ambot.

However, Van Saar have M4" so it's not the first time human-like models have M4".

The developers have "confirmed" a lot of things, that doesn't make much sense always. Like when they "confirmed" that bionics would be cheaper than repairing the damage with advancements (pre-bionics). It is a very simple calculation to see that is simply not true.

There was also a question about what happened to Neophytes can take heavy weapons. The devs answered "Nope. Only acolytes can take heavy weapons". That is also simply not true, both the adept and alpha can have heavy weapons..

In the context of the question asked, it's perfectly accurate; the leaders weren't in the scope of the question, after all.

Baxx wrote:
N17 as a whole is however full of obvious errors that require house rulings. Like the large amount of inconsistent weapon profiles you could find, even within the same book! And other basic things like scenarios that just didn't make sense at all (winning condition, rewards etc). Almost all of the rules are reprinted again and again (Gang War books, skills, armoury, trading post, scenarios, house weapon lists) or simply left for dead (large parts of the core rulebook) because of all the errors and changes.

That is kinda my point, to be honest. There are so many actual errors that it is too much of a headache to debate the marginal things too. To be honest, after running through a LOT of numbers in Excel, I thought the cost of acolytes should actual include the extra arm for free, based on a few things, which was the biggets leap I took, and I turned out wrong. One that was undeniable was the incorrect bolter profile inthe Legacy pdf.