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I have very little knowledge of lore for specific chapters, so I was under the impression that most chapters had given up on the Imperial Truth; however, the more I am reading the more it seems like many chapters do not consider the Emperor a god.

Which chapters would fall into the category of Emperor worship?

Officially speaking, only the Black Templars, howver any number of fanmade chapters can take that stance. But the Templars are by far the most well known and powerful being a straight descendant of the Imperial Fists and also being founded by the original Emperor's Champion. Not just a title but the guy the actual Emperor assigned to be the commander of Terra when he teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit.

I'm pretty sure that most fervently believe in the Emperor's divinity, which is ironic since the 'bible' of the imperial cult was written by Lorgar, a.k.a. the first heretic.

Hell, most chapters marine training involve mental conditioning (read: brainwashing) to reinforce absolute faith in da emperah.

When Guilliman came back, even he is having to say things like "The Emperor Protects" just to keep morale in his chapter up, even though he probably says it accompanied by a heavy sigh and an eye roll.

I could be wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that in current 40k, faith in the God Emperor is pretty much required by good little loyal marines.

Or, to put it another way, there's 9 legions that don't believe in the emperor's divinity, and only because they found new gods to worship.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most fervently believe in the Emperor's divinity, which is ironic since the 'bible' of the imperial cult was written by Lorgar, a.k.a. the first heretic.

Hell, most chapters marine training involve mental conditioning (read: brainwashing) to reinforce absolute faith in da emperah.

When Guilliman came back, even he is having to say things like "The Emperor Protects" just to keep morale in his chapter up, even though he probably says it accompanied by a heavy sigh and an eye roll.

I could be wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that in current 40k, faith in the God Emperor is pretty much required by good little loyal marines.

Or, to put it another way, there's 9 legions that don't believe in the emperor's divinity, and only because they found new gods to worship.

GW has gone back and forth on this over the years but for the most part Marines worship for the emperor is more of deep devotion/ respect than actual religious belief.

I feel that the whole marines don't worship the emperor as a god is so janky. Like they revere him, pray to him, say he protects etc etc, but don't worship him as a god? Everything they do involving him is worship in all but name. So yeah I know the Black Templars do for sure. I think there is another one from the deathwatch RPG that worships him so much that they get bonuses when dealing with hyper religious people. I think the Blood Raven do because I am pretty sure Gabriel Angelos says something about "The God Emperor".

Where as I have always believed that Astartes don’t think of Him as anything but a Man. A psychic supernova of power but still a Man.

Apart from the Black Templars of course. They are crazy!

The rulebook has claimed that, unlike most members of the Imperium, the Space Marines know the Emperor is not a god. But then, not all chapters would necessarily get that message.

Maybe they see him as a sort of spiritual guiding light, rather than an actual god. Like Buddha or the Dalai Lama. But, you know, more genocidal.

I also took it as them seeing him as a small g god. He is obviously immensely powerful and is worlds beyond even the primarchs but still not omnipotent or all powerful. Where most the imperium think of him a GOD not dis similar to how most Catholics are taught to view god.

The ones that do believe in him as a god are seen as more fringe chapters or ones with close ties to the Ecclesiarchy rather than the norm. Aside from Templars, there's also the Red Hunters and the Fire Angels.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think the Blood Raven do because I am pretty sure Gabriel Angelos says something about "The God Emperor".

Maybe that's what I'm basing my opinion on - the DoW games are full of blood angels with "Venerate the Immortal emperor' this and 'God Emperor' that.

Space marines literally believe he is a god - because...he is a god. lol.

The Promethean Cult got the Ecclesiarchy's official seal of approval, which implies pretty strongly that the Salamanders are all aboard the Emperor-Is-A-God train even if that's never been explicitly stated.

I can't actually remember if the idea of most chapters being atheist was introduced in 3rd edition or in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex. I do know that all SMs worshipped the Emperor as a god at the beginning of 2nd edition, as described in the Codex Imperialis background book that came with the 2nd edition boxed game.

I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

Oof. The Omnissiah is kind of a tricky subject. Its a concept born by the techpriests of Mars (who the Iron Hands have close ties to). In reality, the omnissiah is probably the void dragon, a C'tan (More or less a Necron god) who just happens to be napping on Mars.

So, the techpriests of Mars are more than likely worshiping a C'tan, and just call it the 'Omnissiah', who the Ecclesiarchy politely assumes is the Emperor, in order to avoid a civil war.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I have very little knowledge of lore for specific chapters, so I was under the impression that most chapters had given up on the Imperial Truth; however, the more I am reading the more it seems like many chapters do not consider the Emperor a god.

Which chapters would fall into the category of Emperor worship?

The Space Wolves don't, as Bjorn is still around to tell them that they are idiots for believing in the Emperor as a god. Not that maney marines actually believe the Emperor is a god. All I know is the black templars and the Grey Knights pray to him but they don't believe him to be a god.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

Oof. The Omnissiah is kind of a tricky subject. Its a concept born by the techpriests of Mars (who the Iron Hands have close ties to). In reality, the omnissiah is probably the void dragon, a C'tan (More or less a Necron god) who just happens to be napping on Mars.

So, the techpriests of Mars are more than likely worshiping a C'tan, and just call it the 'Omnissiah', who the Ecclesiarchy politely assumes is the Emperor, in order to avoid a civil war.

I'm not sure if the void dragon is the Omnissiah honestly, I know that's one possiabile interpretation of Mechanicus, but the same novel actually presents us with an alternative. Consider, the Warp contains a source of all knowledge, we know that just as the heresy kicked off a tech preist was working on the ability to access this via a machine called the Akashic Reader, we also know that various individuals, such as Dalia Cythera have a innate connection to this part of the warp, and are able to develop all sorts of things (one wonders how many of these people have been burned for heresy over the Millenia) It's BTW likely a safe bet the Emperor can tap this aspect of the warp too, which explains his apparent technological genius (could access to this part of the warp be what he was doing at Molech?) so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon.

Basicly what I'm getting at is the Omnissiah may have been several people, One of who was the Emperor.... another of whom was Dalia Cythera.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

Oof. The Omnissiah is kind of a tricky subject. Its a concept born by the techpriests of Mars (who the Iron Hands have close ties to). In reality, the omnissiah is probably the void dragon, a C'tan (More or less a Necron god) who just happens to be napping on Mars.

So, the techpriests of Mars are more than likely worshiping a C'tan, and just call it the 'Omnissiah', who the Ecclesiarchy politely assumes is the Emperor, in order to avoid a civil war.

I'm not sure if the void dragon is the Omnissiah honestly, I know that's one possiabile interpretation of Mechanicus, but the same novel actually presents us with an alternative. Consider, the Warp contains a source of all knowledge, we know that just as the heresy kicked off a tech preist was working on the ability to access this via a machine called the Akashic Reader, we also know that various individuals, such as Dalia Cythera have a innate connection to this part of the warp, and are able to develop all sorts of things (one wonders how many of these people have been burned for heresy over the Millenia) It's BTW likely a safe bet the Emperor can tap this aspect of the warp too, which explains his apparent technological genius (could access to this part of the warp be what he was doing at Molech?) so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon.

Basicly what I'm getting at is the Omnissiah may have been several people, One of who was the Emperor.... another of whom was Dalia Cythera.

The void dragon is their god, the Emperor used it to make the Mechanicum but also that so that they'd see him as a manifestation of their god so they'd follow him:

"'The Emperor? Yes,' said Semyon, turning and walking away as the reality of the desert landscape began to unweave. 'He brought the defeated Dragon to Mars and bound it beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus.'

'But why?'

'The Emperor sees things we do not,' said Semyon. 'He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity's understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.'

'You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?'

'Of course,' said Semyon. 'He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor's grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.'

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor's designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness."

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

Oof. The Omnissiah is kind of a tricky subject. Its a concept born by the techpriests of Mars (who the Iron Hands have close ties to). In reality, the omnissiah is probably the void dragon, a C'tan (More or less a Necron god) who just happens to be napping on Mars.

So, the techpriests of Mars are more than likely worshiping a C'tan, and just call it the 'Omnissiah', who the Ecclesiarchy politely assumes is the Emperor, in order to avoid a civil war.

I'm not sure if the void dragon is the Omnissiah honestly, I know that's one possiabile interpretation of Mechanicus, but the same novel actually presents us with an alternative. Consider, the Warp contains a source of all knowledge, we know that just as the heresy kicked off a tech preist was working on the ability to access this via a machine called the Akashic Reader, we also know that various individuals, such as Dalia Cythera have a innate connection to this part of the warp, and are able to develop all sorts of things (one wonders how many of these people have been burned for heresy over the Millenia) It's BTW likely a safe bet the Emperor can tap this aspect of the warp too, which explains his apparent technological genius (could access to this part of the warp be what he was doing at Molech?) so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon.

Basicly what I'm getting at is the Omnissiah may have been several people, One of who was the Emperor.... another of whom was Dalia Cythera.

The void dragon is their god, the Emperor used it to make the Mechanicum but also that so that they'd see him as a manifestation of their god so they'd follow him:

"'The Emperor? Yes,' said Semyon, turning and walking away as the reality of the desert landscape began to unweave. 'He brought the defeated Dragon to Mars and bound it beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus.'

'But why?'

'The Emperor sees things we do not,' said Semyon. 'He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity's understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.'

'You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?'

'Of course,' said Semyon. 'He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor's grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.'

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor's designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness."

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand in your desire to randomly quote gak from a book (one I'm in the middle of re-reading) you miss the nuance. My point is, that is the void dragon really the god, or simply a bridge to the god. It's a philophsical question for which there is no real right answer BTW

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

Oof. The Omnissiah is kind of a tricky subject. Its a concept born by the techpriests of Mars (who the Iron Hands have close ties to). In reality, the omnissiah is probably the void dragon, a C'tan (More or less a Necron god) who just happens to be napping on Mars.

So, the techpriests of Mars are more than likely worshiping a C'tan, and just call it the 'Omnissiah', who the Ecclesiarchy politely assumes is the Emperor, in order to avoid a civil war.

I'm not sure if the void dragon is the Omnissiah honestly, I know that's one possiabile interpretation of Mechanicus, but the same novel actually presents us with an alternative. Consider, the Warp contains a source of all knowledge, we know that just as the heresy kicked off a tech preist was working on the ability to access this via a machine called the Akashic Reader, we also know that various individuals, such as Dalia Cythera have a innate connection to this part of the warp, and are able to develop all sorts of things (one wonders how many of these people have been burned for heresy over the Millenia) It's BTW likely a safe bet the Emperor can tap this aspect of the warp too, which explains his apparent technological genius (could access to this part of the warp be what he was doing at Molech?) so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon.

Basicly what I'm getting at is the Omnissiah may have been several people, One of who was the Emperor.... another of whom was Dalia Cythera.

The void dragon is their god, the Emperor used it to make the Mechanicum but also that so that they'd see him as a manifestation of their god so they'd follow him:

"'The Emperor? Yes,' said Semyon, turning and walking away as the reality of the desert landscape began to unweave. 'He brought the defeated Dragon to Mars and bound it beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus.'

'But why?'

'The Emperor sees things we do not,' said Semyon. 'He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity's understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.'

'You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?'

'Of course,' said Semyon. 'He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor's grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.'

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor's designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness."

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand in your desire to randomly quote gak from a book (one I'm in the middle of re-reading) you miss the nuance. My point is, that is the void dragon really the god, or simply a bridge to the god. It's a philophsical question for which there is no real right answer BTW

Randomly quote, its pretty spot on actually.

"so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon."

No it doesn't matter what you think it is, the void dragon is the Omnissiah, what it is and how it does what it does can be theorised but the void dragon IS the Omnissiah its what causes them to have their belief in the Omnissiah, it isn't actually the omnisiah or an intermediary, it just causes them to believe in the Omnissiah, when you've finished the book you'll understand. So you can't get out of being wrong by saying 'philosophy'. I mean you haven't even got to that part yet, so I don't know how you know all the nuance and I don't know why you are arguing in the first place.

The bible is what causes people to belive in god, by your logic the bible is god.

BrianDavion wrote:
The bible is what causes people to belive in god, by your logic the bible is god.

If the bible was sentient rather than just being a book you might have a point and its not my logic, its the authors logic.

BrianDavion wrote:
The bible is what causes people to belive in god, by your logic the bible is god.

Many believe the Bible to be the exact Word of God, and that is shares a fragment of his power. Hence why in horror movies you see priests and christians holding up the book as if it will protect them against the monster, because they believe it to be an active aspect of an active god, therefore being a god in the same way a C'tan shard or Eldar Avatar are.

I like to think space marines in the aftermath of the heresy were particularly aware of the blasphemous nature of gods.

Due to their relative independence they were also able to bypass a fair portion of the coverups perpetrated across the wider imperium.

As such, Astartes are broadly understanding that the Emperor is not some blasphemous 'God' but a much more powerful, influential creature; the holiest of all forms: a man!

All hail the Man Emperor of Mankind!

What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Iracundus wrote:
What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Not exactly

The Ecclesiarchy pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. They believe him to be a god and that these things are because he is a God.

The Space Marines pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. Because they have records and documents and history showing that he is a supremely powerful being capable of intervening in the world, know that he is immortal, know for a fact he has supernatural powers, and can be fairly certain about the other stuff too. But still do not call him a god, outright.

Praying to something in the hope something happens and with little to go on but faith is religion. What the Space Marine's do is more like "Phone a friend" or calling your dementia-stricken grandad for help on the day's crossword. He usually won't be able to give you any help, but once in a blue moon he'll come through with the goods.

 Deadshot wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Not exactly

The Ecclesiarchy pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. They believe him to be a god and that these things are because he is a God.

The Space Marines pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. Because they have records and documents and history showing that he is a supremely powerful being capable of intervening in the world, know that he is immortal, know for a fact he has supernatural powers, and can be fairly certain about the other stuff too. But still do not call him a god, outright.

Praying to something in the hope something happens and with little to go on but faith is religion. What the Space Marine's do is more like "Phone a friend" or calling your dementia-stricken grandad for help on the day's crossword. He usually won't be able to give you any help, but once in a blue moon he'll come through with the goods.

That is the same thing. The Eccelsiarchy is just as certain they have records, documents, and history showing that he is a powerful immortal being with supernatural powers.

The whole point is the Space Marines are hypocrites as what they do is the same, just with different names. Just because they don't call their god a god, doesn't mean they don't actually worship him as one.

Iracundus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Not exactly

The Ecclesiarchy pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. They believe him to be a god and that these things are because he is a God.

The Space Marines pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. Because they have records and documents and history showing that he is a supremely powerful being capable of intervening in the world, know that he is immortal, know for a fact he has supernatural powers, and can be fairly certain about the other stuff too. But still do not call him a god, outright.

Praying to something in the hope something happens and with little to go on but faith is religion. What the Space Marine's do is more like "Phone a friend" or calling your dementia-stricken grandad for help on the day's crossword. He usually won't be able to give you any help, but once in a blue moon he'll come through with the goods.

That is the same thing. The Eccelsiarchy is just as certain they have records, documents, and history showing that he is a powerful immortal being with supernatural powers.

The whole point is the Space Marines are hypocrites as what they do is the same, just with different names. Just because they don't call their god a god, doesn't mean they don't actually worship him as one.

Worship requires active belief and faith. Again, asking god and asking your grandad for help is very different. You know your grandad is your grandad, and you know what he is capable. One is a leap of faith, another is asking a real being with real proven ability to help for help, but you don't believe ever believe your grandad is a god.

 Deadshot wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Not exactly

The Ecclesiarchy pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. They believe him to be a god and that these things are because he is a God.

The Space Marines pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, think they will join him in the afterlife. Because they have records and documents and history showing that he is a supremely powerful being capable of intervening in the world, know that he is immortal, know for a fact he has supernatural powers, and can be fairly certain about the other stuff too. But still do not call him a god, outright.

Praying to something in the hope something happens and with little to go on but faith is religion. What the Space Marine's do is more like "Phone a friend" or calling your dementia-stricken grandad for help on the day's crossword. He usually won't be able to give you any help, but once in a blue moon he'll come through with the goods.

That is the same thing. The Eccelsiarchy is just as certain they have records, documents, and history showing that he is a powerful immortal being with supernatural powers.

The whole point is the Space Marines are hypocrites as what they do is the same, just with different names. Just because they don't call their god a god, doesn't mean they don't actually worship him as one.

Worship requires active belief and faith. Again, asking god and asking your grandad for help is very different. You know your grandad is your grandad, and you know what he is capable. One is a leap of faith, another is asking a real being with real proven ability to help for help, but you don't believe ever believe your grandad is a god.

You don't believe your granddad has supernatural powers, is immortal, or that he rules an afterlife. If you did and still made prayers and rituals to him or asked him for literal supernatural blessings, then that is religious practice and worship even if you still call him granddad. What the Space Marines engage in is active worship and faith and is no different from the Ecclesiarchy. They just engage in hypocritical semantics about it, calling their god a "Man" instead of a "God". The differences between the faith of Marines and that of the Ecclesiarchy is purely one of dogma and names. And it is typical that like so much else in the Imperium, they are at odds over what is essentially hair-splitting.

It seems you confuse religious activity and faith with believing in things in the face of lack of evidence or even evidence otherwise. That has not been true for most of history. Ancient people in Egypt or Greece knew their gods existed just as they knew their grandfather was in a village down the road. Their worship of them was asking for favors from entities they knew existed and could help them. Little different from asking supernatural granddad for help.

Alternatively we have the example of Buddhism. Praying to the Buddha or boddhisattvas for help would be like asking a granddad with help, since these entities are also explicitly denied to be actual gods. Does it make Buddhism not a religion? No. While some may then argue that it is "veneration" not worship, that is the same sort of linguistic gymnastics that the Space Marines engage in.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most fervently believe in the Emperor's divinity, which is ironic since the 'bible' of the imperial cult was written by Lorgar, a.k.a. the first heretic.

Hell, most chapters marine training involve mental conditioning (read: brainwashing) to reinforce absolute faith in da emperah.

When Guilliman came back, even he is having to say things like "The Emperor Protects" just to keep morale in his chapter up, even though he probably says it accompanied by a heavy sigh and an eye roll.

I could be wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that in current 40k, faith in the God Emperor is pretty much required by good little loyal marines.

Or, to put it another way, there's 9 legions that don't believe in the emperor's divinity, and only because they found new gods to worship.

"The Emperor protects" doesn't have to be said ironically. The Imperial Truth was one of rationality. He would explain his "godlike" powers through science or reason and just say that He was a powerful human or psyker. This mindset would describe the Chaos "gods" as just powerful entities.
The Emperor, through his psychic and rational powers can protect!