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Lets say I have a Shadowsword. I want to shoot some of it's guns at a Castellan, and some at a Gallant. The knight player is no doubt going to use "Rotate Ion Shields" on whichever target gets the main gun.

At what point does he have to declare which knight get's the strategem.

I figure it is probably A or C, but B is a possibility:
A) when I announce that my shadowsword is shooting at those two knights.
B) When I nominate a target for a specific weapon.
C) after I've nominated the targets for all of my weapons.

The moment the Knight getting the Ion Shield strat is selected as a target is when it is used.

As you declare all your weapons to all their targets at the same time, the opponent is able to hear all the weapons and intended targets from the Shadowsword before declaring which Knight gets the Ion shield bonus.
But they need to use the strat before you start rolling dice for any of the weapons.

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As above so basically C

 Galef wrote:
The moment the Knight getting the Ion Shield strat is selected as a target is when it is used.

As you declare all your weapons to all their targets at the same time, the opponent is able to hear all the weapons and intended targets from the Shadowsword before declaring which Knight gets the Ion shield bonus.
But they need to use the strat before you start rolling dice for any of the weapons.

-

No true. You only have to declare your targets, not the weapon being used. So you have to say " I am going to target the Castellan, that knight over there, and the squad of rough riders." He has been targeted and now must declare who is rotating ion shields. You then pick your first weapon and fire at one of the targets you selected.

The correct answer is A

 quickfuze wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The moment the Knight getting the Ion Shield strat is selected as a target is when it is used.

As you declare all your weapons to all their targets at the same time, the opponent is able to hear all the weapons and intended targets from the Shadowsword before declaring which Knight gets the Ion shield bonus.
But they need to use the strat before you start rolling dice for any of the weapons.

-

No true. You only have to declare your targets, not the weapon being used. So you have to say " I am going to target the Castellan, that knight over there, and the squad of rough riders." He has been targeted and now must declare who is rotating ion shields. You then pick your first weapon and fire at one of the targets you selected.

The correct answer is A

I had to double check, but it appears you are correct.
Step 1 is choosing the unit you shoot with
Step 2 is choosing your targets
Step 3 is choosing which weapons your will use.

Rotate Ion shields has to be declared at Step 2. I'll have to remember this as a way to "bluff out" the strat.
Probably doesn't help me much though, as I have to use Psychic powers to aid in taking out Knights, so it will be pretty obvious which Knight will need the shield before I even get to the shooting phase.

But you have to shoot at every target you declare. So you can't just declare the whole board.

I've actually seen a Storm Bolter do great things in one game, due to a Land Raider wanting to see how the dice went before devoting all of it's firepower.

Bharring wrote:
But you have to shoot at every target you declare. So you can't just declare the whole board.

I've actually seen a Storm Bolter do great things in one game, due to a Land Raider wanting to see how the dice went before devoting all of it's firepower.

This is true, but with something like a shadowsword who has lascannons, volcano cannon and heavy bolters, you can bluff out the stratagem. Which is the intent of the OP

 Galef wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The moment the Knight getting the Ion Shield strat is selected as a target is when it is used.

As you declare all your weapons to all their targets at the same time, the opponent is able to hear all the weapons and intended targets from the Shadowsword before declaring which Knight gets the Ion shield bonus.
But they need to use the strat before you start rolling dice for any of the weapons.

-

No true. You only have to declare your targets, not the weapon being used. So you have to say " I am going to target the Castellan, that knight over there, and the squad of rough riders." He has been targeted and now must declare who is rotating ion shields. You then pick your first weapon and fire at one of the targets you selected.

The correct answer is A

I had to double check, but it appears you are correct.
Step 1 is choosing the unit you shoot with
Step 2 is choosing your targets
Step 3 is choosing which weapons your will use.

Rotate Ion shields has to be declared at Step 2. I'll have to remember this as a way to "bluff out" the strat.
Probably doesn't help me much though, as I have to use Psychic powers to aid in taking out Knights, so it will be pretty obvious which Knight will need the shield before I even get to the shooting phase.

Except step two include range and hence must be weapon by weapon or range can not be checked and you can't exit step 2 and never complete the shooting phase.

 quickfuze wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But you have to shoot at every target you declare. So you can't just declare the whole board.

I've actually seen a Storm Bolter do great things in one game, due to a Land Raider wanting to see how the dice went before devoting all of it's firepower.

This is true, but with something like a shadowsword who has lascannons, volcano cannon and heavy bolters, you can bluff out the stratagem. Which is the intent of the OP

Agreed. Target both knights with the shadowsword, if the knight players uses RIS on one knight shoot it with a HB, and use the rest of the guns on the other knight.

But if you pick 2 targets within 12", and have 5 weapons with 12" range or more, would there truly be a need to know which weapons target which enemies at that point?

More relevantly, where does it specify that you consider range or declare which weapons are targetting each target?

In theory, there's no check to ensure you're "doing it right", and you could continue to act and get to the point where there's no legal step forward - which is problematic. That doesn't, however, mean that's not how the rules work.

Even if we assumed the rules you're suggesting - that doesn't eliminate it. If I choose to fire at the two Ork survivors with my heavy bolters, and put the Volcano Cannon and Lascannons into the Battle Wagon. If the Battle Wagon explodes and kills the one Ork of the two in LOS, I've now chosen a target with a weapon that was legal at the time, but now can't complete my shooting - and can't move on, because I declared a target that I haven't shot at.

It's very wonky, but the player must be careful to select the right options - and the opponent should point it out immediately if they notice the player is taking an action that would put them in this situation.

Ice_can wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The moment the Knight getting the Ion Shield strat is selected as a target is when it is used.

As you declare all your weapons to all their targets at the same time, the opponent is able to hear all the weapons and intended targets from the Shadowsword before declaring which Knight gets the Ion shield bonus.
But they need to use the strat before you start rolling dice for any of the weapons.

-

No true. You only have to declare your targets, not the weapon being used. So you have to say " I am going to target the Castellan, that knight over there, and the squad of rough riders." He has been targeted and now must declare who is rotating ion shields. You then pick your first weapon and fire at one of the targets you selected.

The correct answer is A

I had to double check, but it appears you are correct.
Step 1 is choosing the unit you shoot with
Step 2 is choosing your targets
Step 3 is choosing which weapons your will use.

Rotate Ion shields has to be declared at Step 2. I'll have to remember this as a way to "bluff out" the strat.
Probably doesn't help me much though, as I have to use Psychic powers to aid in taking out Knights, so it will be pretty obvious which Knight will need the shield before I even get to the shooting phase.

Except step two include range and hence must be weapon by weapon or range can not be checked and you can't exit step 2 and never complete the shooting phase.

You can announce the range you're checking for, remembering that at least one of your weapon systems that has that range needs to be fired at that target, but you do not have to announce the actual weapon systems firing. You can have a second weapon system with a longer range also fire at that unit when it comes to Step 3; you would not have needed to have announced it at step 2.

Bharring wrote:
But if you pick 2 targets within 12", and have 5 weapons with 12" range or more, would there truly be a need to know which weapons target which enemies at that point?

More relevantly, where does it specify that you consider range or declare which weapons are targetting each target?

In theory, there's no check to ensure you're "doing it right", and you could continue to act and get to the point where there's no legal step forward - which is problematic. That doesn't, however, mean that's not how the rules work.

Even if we assumed the rules you're suggesting - that doesn't eliminate it. If I choose to fire at the two Ork survivors with my heavy bolters, and put the Volcano Cannon and Lascannons into the Battle Wagon. If the Battle Wagon explodes and kills the one Ork of the two in LOS, I've now chosen a target with a weapon that was legal at the time, but now can't complete my shooting - and can't move on, because I declared a target that I haven't shot at.

It's very wonky, but the player must be careful to select the right options - and the opponent should point it out immediately if they notice the player is taking an action that would put them in this situation.

Please read the rules of the shooting phase, its all explained there.

Hmm. This isn't a cut an dry as I once thought.
Step 2 does indeed say "in order to target an enemy, it must be within the Range of the weapon being used".

That seems pretty clear that at the very least, you must know the ranges of all the weapons you could potentially use. But it is odd that the rule would state this and the very next step is to THEN choose your weapons.

It's as if you have to choose the weapon before you choose the weapon.

-

 Galef wrote:
Hmm. This isn't a cut an dry as I once thought.
Step 2 does indeed say "in order to target an enemy, it must be within the Range of the weapon being used".

That seems pretty clear that at the very least, you must know the ranges of all the weapons you could potentially use. But it is odd that the rule would state this and the very next step is to THEN choose your weapons.

It's as if you have to choose the weapon before you choose the weapon.

-

Yeah typical 8th edition level of rules writing.
I've emailed GW about it but not holding my breath as I can't see how they missed this during most playtested edition ever.

It's written in a style that suggests you select the weapons for each target, but as written, it's clear that it does *not* require weapons to be selected.

Bharring wrote:
It's written in a style that suggests you select the weapons for each target, but as written, it's clear that it does *not* require weapons to be selected.

except without a weapon you have no range variable to check against. As you never check range at any other step if you don't declare weapon by weapon nothing in the rules actually stops you shooting the hull lascannon on a Leman russ at a target 68 inchs away.

That's because you're selecting A weapon with a range, and announcing the range. If I have a model with 2 weapons with a 48" range and one with a 12" range, and there's an enemy unit 6" away and a unit 24" away, I only have to say I'm checking a 12" range for the close enemy unit and I'm checking a 48" range on the unit farther away. I'm only required to fire a weapon at the close unit since they're all in range, and at least one of the two long distance weapons at the unit that''s 24 inches away. There is absolutely no requirement in Step 2 that I have to announce which units I'm shooting my 2 48" range weapons at during that step. I can fire one of the weapons at the further unit and the other one at the closer unit if I want, and not even fire the 12" range weapon if I don't want to. Within the limitation of having to fire a weapon with a range at least that of what I checked in step 2 at appropriate units in step 3, I can mix up what weapons fire at what enemies based upon reactions the enemy units take based upon the announcement that they are targets that will be shot at. This is not some "mistake" that they "missed", it's something they purposefully built into the rules to give the shooting player some flexibility when he has multiple weapons to fire.

So a potentially nasty, but possibly legal move would be to select the 2 Knights as targets, checking the range of the "main" weapon at step 2.
Knight Player chooses Knight A to have RIS, but at step 3, select the "main" weapon to fire at Knight B instead and have a "crap" weapon that also had range shoot at Knight A to satisfy the rule.

-

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It's written in a style that suggests you select the weapons for each target, but as written, it's clear that it does *not* require weapons to be selected.

except without a weapon you have no range variable to check against. As you never check range at any other step if you don't declare weapon by weapon nothing in the rules actually stops you shooting the hull lascannon on a Leman russ at a target 68 inchs away.

You are required to fire a weapon with at least the range you declared at a unit, but there is no requirement to go weapon by weapon. If I have multiple weapon types with the same range, I don't have to reveal which weapon is firing at a unit I declare I'm shooting. You aren't allowed to shoot a weapon at something out of range, but the lascannon you cite can fire at a unit that's 6 inches away when I declared a range of 12 inches for measuring. He doesn't know I'm firing the lascannon until step 3, when I start to declare which weapons are firing. You absolutely do not have to declare weapon by weapon. Use my previous example of a unit with 2 different weapon types with a 48" range. I can target 2 different units that are just within 48", but at step 2 I don't have to declare that weapon 1 is firing at unit A and weapon 2 is firing at unit B, contrary to your assertion that we have to declare weapon by weapon. The enemy units have to base any reactions that can take that trigger from being targeted without knowing which of the 48" range weapons are targeting them. What you are saying goes against the rules as written as you are insisting that the enemy player gets to immediately know which weapon system is targeting which enemy, something not stated in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So a potentially nasty, but possibly legal move would be to select the 2 Knights as targets, checking the range of the "main" weapon at step 2.
Knight Player chooses Knight A to have RIS, but at step 3, select the "main" weapon to fire at Knight B instead and have a "crap" weapon that also had range shoot at Knight A to satisfy the rule.
-

If the main weapon and the other weapon have the same range (or if the "crap" weapon has a longer range than the main weapon and you declared only the main weapon's range for determining if the enemy unit was close enough), it's a perfectly legal move, not just a "possibly" legal move.

 doctortom wrote:
What you are saying goes against the rules as written as you are insisting that the enemy player gets to immediately know which weapon system is targeting which enemy, something not stated in the rules.

I can easily see someone using this to "disallow" the Knight player using the RIS strat entirely.

Step 2: Player A chooses 2 Knights as targets.
Before using RIS strat, the Knight Player asks what weapons are being used on which Knight.
Player A declares which weapons per Knight, but then also states we have moved to Step 3 and therefore the Knight Player "missed" his chance to use RIS.

-

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
What you are saying goes against the rules as written as you are insisting that the enemy player gets to immediately know which weapon system is targeting which enemy, something not stated in the rules.

I can easily see someone using this to "disallow" the Knight player using the RIS strat entirely.

Step 2: Player A chooses 2 Knights as targets.
Before using RIS strat, the Knight Player asks what weapons are being used on which Knight.
Player A declares which weapons per Knight, but then also states we have moved to Step 3 and therefore the Knight Player "missed" his chance to use RIS.

-

Player A should inform the Knight player that he doesn't have to say which weapon is targeting which Knight at that step, only the range which at least one weapon must fire at each, and allow the Knight player to decide what he's going to do based on the information he has. If Player A is wanting to be an utter cheese weasel he can try doing what you say, but I would think that would be frowned upon in most circles. In a tournament I'd guess that a judge might allow the Knight player to to use the RIS strat, but declare that Player A won't be held to what weapons are firing at what knights (unless he's been a cheese weasal too much before and the judge wants to teach him a lesson )

Yeah, agreed it'd be a "cheese weasel" move. That's why I could see someone trying to do it.

In that scenario:

Player A "Measuring 20 - Knights 1 and 2 are in range" (technically two seperate measurements, but at that range might do it once)
Player B "So, which weapon are you firing at who"
Player A "I'm going to Volcano the hell out of Knight 1"
Player B "I RIS Knight 1"

At that stage, either:
-Player A has started step 3 before Player B declared RIS. If he wasn't given a chance, it's perfectly normal to say "Well hold up, I was going to do RIS" - and so step 3 hasn't started, Player A hasn't selected Volcano yet. Volcano is probably going into 2 now.
-Or, Player A was sharing their intention. Player B then uses RIS, and now Player A has a different intention. Perfectly natural to now intend to Volcano knight 2.

Either way, no choice has been made and no dice have been rolled that come after target selection, so why would Player A be bound by his original intention to target Knight 1?

Bharring wrote:
In that scenario:

Player A "Measuring 20 - Knights 1 and 2 are in range" (technically two seperate measurements, but at that range might do it once)
Player B "So, which weapon are you firing at who"
Player A "I'm going to Volcano the hell out of Knight 1"
Player B "I RIS Knight 1"

At that stage, either:
-Player A has started step 3 before Player B declared RIS. If he wasn't given a chance, it's perfectly normal to say "Well hold up, I was going to do RIS" - and so step 3 hasn't started, Player A hasn't selected Volcano yet. Volcano is probably going into 2 now.
-Or, Player A was sharing their intention. Player B then uses RIS, and now Player A has a different intention. Perfectly natural to now intend to Volcano knight 2.

Either way, no choice has been made and dice have been rolled that come after target selection, so why would Player A be bound by his original intention to target Knight 1?

Agreed.

-

If that was the intention why not just make defensive strategums at the start of the shooting phase.

Ice_can wrote:
If that was the intention why not just make defensive strategums at the start of the shooting phase.

Its just a lack of thought put into the way the stratagem interacts with the rules, there are defensive strats that do occur at the start of the phase (like the Eldar Pathfinders one), as well as at other times in the turn

I think based on wording the intention is that you should know what weapons are going where, and most people here seem to agree with that. Intentions are not instructions however, and doing it correct to the letter means you shouldn't know what guns are being fired at what target before declaring the stratagem.

Until we get an official ruling, the best way would be to discuss how it should be played with your opponent before you get in the heat of the game, or with a TO if applicable. People are more open to reason when their precious LOW isn't about to be glassed by a huge energy cannon.

Ice_can wrote:
If that was the intention why not just make defensive strategums at the start of the shooting phase.

Daemons do have a defensive strat that must be declared at the beginning of a phase, this being warp surge (+1 to invuln but cannot re-roll saves)

Ice_can wrote:
If that was the intention why not just make defensive strategums at the start of the shooting phase.

If that were the case, you could ignore the Knight with the RIS entirely. The way that it is at least requires some commitment, if however small.

For my Eldar, for example, the best answer I have to Knights is 3 Prisms linking fire. I don't really have a choice once I declare the Knight as a target unless I get within 12" for my Catapults (or upgrade to a Shuricannon for 24"). Once I start shooting the Prism cannon, all 3 Prisms have to shoot at the same Knight.
However, I will start declaring 2 Knights as a target with my Crimson Hunter first as it has 3 weapons with at least 36" range. That way I can draw out RIS on Knight A and have the Prisms shoot at Knight B.

-

Thanks guys. Appreciate the help.

Yeah RIS at the start of phase would basically render that strategem moot if you have more than 1 knight. As it is you can already bypass it fairly easily(I don't even remember last time it saved against multiple sources) and that's even without this trick. Ouch.