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So after collecting all 4 books and having read none of them yet i was just wondering if the rules are as daunting as they seem?
Are the books lots of repetition, add ons, updates or something else entirely?
I think I'm just having some overload.

Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA. Necromunda on the other hand will last another twenty years even without support from GW.

It is what you make of it, it's not really a simple structured match play game. It's more narrative driven, thematic, you can use bits and pieces and rules here and there. The basic rules/shooting is pretty much normal 40k style dice rolling. Where things can get tricky is keeping track of things in campaign play, you just gotta have scratch paper and keep track of whos getting xp and whatever. Playing on the tiles keeps the game a bit simpler too.

I found 40k 8th ed to be a tad more complex. Mostly because there are more models/units, and just more going on and more to keep track of. Plus army special rules, stratagems, this and that.

The tools on yaktribe are also amazing for making a gang and keeping track of things, eliminating some chances of human error when it comes to that.

No. It's a fun game, pretty solid but it's not for 'hyper competitive' players. So it's not a 'disaster', there's just no shortage of people who don't understand that it's not a 'pro tournament' style game.

It's got a few flaws here and there, but the worst part is waiting months for a weapons upgrade, and it taking nearly a year to release 6 factions- with no sign of Enforcers or Spyrers in sight in the forseeable future.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
No. It's a fun game, pretty solid but it's not for 'hyper competitive' players. So it's not a 'disaster', there's just no shortage of people who don't understand that it's not a 'pro tournament' style game.

It's got a few flaws here and there, but the worst part is waiting months for a weapons upgrade, and it taking nearly a year to release 6 factions- with no sign of Enforcers or Spyrers in sight in the forseeable future.

It does suck waiting for the weapons options, but there is a specialist games seminar this weekend at WHF and i'm hoping to see the cawdor upgrades revealed. Hopefully the van saar ones released relatively soon. And a solid preview of Delaque, and if we're lucky at the very least a vague roadmap for the following year. I personally hope they can still do a few more plastic kits like enforcers, spyrers, redemptionists, or hell...come up with something new entirely, the guild concept art looked pretty interesting. But I know for sure if we could get 1 more plastic kit after delaque then i'd vote for enforcers.

Anyone who says the release was handled well is definitely delusional. The game has pretty slick combat rules and great models, but the piecemeal releases, padding out maybe two books worth of content into 6 books by endless reprints and intentionally incomplete sections that are replaced wholesale in the next book, and the tiny production budget for the minis (compare our 6 half-sized infantry sprues in 12 months to Titanicus's 3 plastic titan classes plus knights) sure look disastrous to me. It feels like GW is only doing a half-assed attempt at Necromunda out of a sense of obligation and they never expected or wanted it to succeed.

Of course Necromunda has been around for over 20 years without GW's attention and will be around for 20 more, but probably the original edition. If this version survives in any form it will be as a fan rewrite, like NCE.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA.

U wot m8?

Yeah - having rules spread across 6 (eventual) books, as well as FAQ info and errata, is a recipe for tearing one's hair out.

But the fact remains that the core game is good, and as has been pointed out, the fan base will support it forever, even if GW doesn't.

I expect a v2.0 rulebook in 6 months or so.

Dandelion wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA.

U wot m8?

Please take more of an effort when posting on this board. Have a nice day.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA. Necromunda on the other hand will last another twenty years even without support from GW.

I mean, SW:A wasn't Kill-Team. It was just really, really obnoxious to play and your choices were limited in to 'mostly stuff no one really wants to play if they're using a handful of models'.

7th Edition Kill-Team was pretty decent, just because it was pretty much 'baby 40k' that worked almost the same way with a few little add-ons. And Heralds of Ruin held on for some time.

Necromunda has held on for quite some time, but unless you were one of the very few people who retained models or bought some that weren't chopped up- there was no huge following. A few scattered people online, and that's about it. Even now, it's not massive. Most people aren't going to play a game with no support. I'm not sure what it is like elsewhere, but I know everywhere I've lived, most people aren't going to invest in something they have to drive across the state to play.

As it is right now, I do not believe Kill-Team will live a long time. It COULD, but that would require some significant amount of work. While the core rules are fine, there's no additional meat and none of the things that make Necromunda interesting- which could be maybe possibly almost be folded into Kill-Team if one were so inclined (testing some of this sooner than later). I do think they're weighing out the reception of Kill-Team, and then possibly they could consider expanding the rules into a more robust and interesting campaign, as well as some more of the interesting odds and ends like additional wargear, etc.

I think both will last a long time.

Kill Team had a strong potential to be played competetively, and even if it is not well-balanced right now, it could easily be adjusted.

Necromunda had a strong following whilst completely unsupported and it has picked up even more now. It might not be popular where you are, but in London, for example, I know of several groups playing it regularly at clubs and FLGSs.

The biggest advantage of Necromunda in its current iteration is the "do it ourselves" attitude of the leftover oldcromunda fanbase, and I don't think it's a coincidence that GW hasn't done much "cracking down."

Confusing rules release with a million books that edit previous books? HMB i'm gonna make a 200 page PDF version that makes sense to read. Broken missions, weapons, rules? We'll make a fan FAQ to make sense of it all.

the_scotsman wrote:
The biggest advantage of Necromunda in its current iteration is the "do it ourselves" attitude of the leftover oldcromunda fanbase, and I don't think it's a coincidence that GW hasn't done much "cracking down."

Confusing rules release with a million books that edit previous books? HMB i'm gonna make a 200 page PDF version that makes sense to read. Broken missions, weapons, rules? We'll make a fan FAQ to make sense of it all.

It's been done. There's a version out here that is being updated regularly.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
So after collecting all 4 books and having read none of them yet i was just wondering if the rules are as daunting as they seem?
Are the books lots of repetition, add ons, updates or something else entirely?
I think I'm just having some overload.

The rules are a disaster yes. Tons of reprinted material. Look at skills, you got them re-printed in almost all books. GW4 reprints loads of rules. It's all very messy. Keep in mind many many pages are also outdated, incorrect or replaced. Most of the pages in the core rulebook is no longer in use. GW1 has very little valid content left. And every time they release a document, book, pdf, white dwarf article, or cards, they always have some inconsistent weapon profiles, costs or rules. Always.

The game on the other hand is super fun. 26 scenarios, 8 gangs, insane range of weapons... more variation than old Necromunda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
No. It's a fun game, pretty solid but it's not for 'hyper competitive' players. So it's not a 'disaster', there's just no shortage of people who don't understand that it's not a 'pro tournament' style game.

It's got a few flaws here and there, but the worst part is waiting months for a weapons upgrade, and it taking nearly a year to release 6 factions- with no sign of Enforcers or Spyrers in sight in the forseeable future.

The game is not a disaster, the layout and messy rules is a disaster. And the disaster train keeps rolling with every new book.

Just as an example, I'm looking at the new house specific brutes in GW4. Looks interesting all right, cool new content! But hey, one of them have a harpoon launcer... but here it is 12" instead of 18" in GW3. What does this mean? Will my old champs carrying this weapon reduce their range too? Or does this only apply to the harpoon launcher of this specific fighter? Or is it simply a mistake, and the old range should apply always? You could do the same with Van Saar Brute's Rad gun. And what about those cool new cawdor models? They can have a dirty old "reclaimed" autogun, cheaper, instead of a new shiny one. Nice. What does this mean? Runs faster out of ammo. They can have a reclaimed autopistol too, same thing applies, runs out of ammo. But it also has a different short range than standard autopistol. Why? Then they can have the polearm/autogun weapon, a combination of an autogun and an unwieldy close combat weapon. Cool! But wait, that's not actually an autogun, it's a reclaimed autogun... why call it an autogun then? And a new combi-weapon, the autogun/flamer. So this should actually be a reclamed autogun too then? Nope, this time it's a real autogun. Makes sense. Just to top it off, it's the only combi-weapon that doesn't have the combi weapon trait. Makes sense?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
So after collecting all 4 books and having read none of them yet i was just wondering if the rules are as daunting as they seem?
Are the books lots of repetition, add ons, updates or something else entirely?
I think I'm just having some overload.

"Is Necromunda a disaster?"

Are you a Russian troll?

This is like saying, "I just bought a car, but learning how to start it and put it in gear is just too much to learn. So, the car is a disaster."

You bought the books (good). You haven't bothered to read them before posting (bad). You offer a ridiculously uninformed opinion on them (ugly). Hell, if you had only put out the tremendous, and heroic effort to read the table of contents of the BRB, you would see the rules are presented in an ease-of-learning format. Not to mention, they are written in a casual, readable style, and laced with interesting background information. Yeah, and if you don't have the BRB, you can download a fan compiled copy for free (though, I don't recommend violating international IP laws, blah, blah).

Man, up, Man!

Then, when you can offer even slightly informed opinion, I'd love to hear it.

The core rulebook is garbage, reading it is mostly wasted at this point (escher no longer applies, goliath no longer applies, scenarios no longer applies, armoury, trading post, skills, costs, fighters no longer apply...).

I strongly recommend getting some fan made rules compilation, save yourself time and trouble.

Whilst Baxx has been notoriously unhappy with Necromunda since it's release, at this stage he is now basically correct. You only need about 10 pages from the main rulebook!

Got books. Hasn’t bothered to read.

And this is actually a thread?

Really?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Got books. Hasn’t bothered to read.

And this is actually a thread?

Really?

This thread is a small representation of the problem GW created with their rules release style for Necromunda. I do not believe I am alone in avoiding the new Necromunda because of how they have been releasing the rules. The minute they release a single rule book or a rule book and a single Gang Wars book I will purchase them, along with a fair number of the new models. But I am to busy with to many other interests that respect my time to deal with 6 rule books that require a flow chart to determine which rules in each book should be used. The rules for a game should not be this arbitrarily complicated and should not cost this much.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Got books. Hasn’t bothered to read.

And this is actually a thread?

Really?

sorry gobbla and yes it's a question doc.
I've skimmed them and read the stories.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense to you.
I was simply asking if the rules added upon rules is as daunting and redundant as it seems.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA.

U wot m8?

Please take more of an effort when posting on this board. Have a nice day.

All right. I believe you are gravely mistaken in your predictions, primarily due to the staggering amount of effort put into the release of Kill-team compared to SW:A. Kill-team not only boasts a much more permanent and robust starter set, but also a plethora of expansions and other relatively minor bundles. What's more, Games Workshop has been quite forthright in their promise to provide support for the next few years, at a minimum.
The following source should provide ample evidence for my claims:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/KIll_Team_QA.pdf

Please, peruse the above document at your leisure.
Of course, you may be inclined to disparage Games Workshop through accusations of dishonesty, but then that would tread awfully near false advertising, something I am sure no corporation would dare to risk.

Moreover, I have personally been fond of SW:A despite its lackluster balance and have played it since its launch. Going forward, I suspect I will spend far more time playing KT, than 40k proper.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Got books. Hasn’t bothered to read.

And this is actually a thread?

Really?

sorry gobbla and yes it's a question doc.
I've skimmed them and read the stories.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense to you.
I was simply asking if the rules added upon rules is as daunting and redundant as it seems.

You don't owe me an apology for expressing an opinion. And, you don't have to read the rules to have an opinion. But, a casual perusal of them before claiming them a disaster does seem in order.

Are the rules daunting and redundant? No, and yes. But, I have a lot of experience with GW games. And, I've taught this one to others. The way to do-it-yourself is a piece at a time. Learn the basics. They aren't complicated or difficult. Add in more stuff as you wish. That amount of stuff (even the annoyingly repeated stuff) is there to add to the enjoyment of the game, not to make it intimidating or excessively detailed.

If you have no experience with this type of miniature game (measuring, moving, die rolling, line-of-sight, terrain and cover, shooting, close combat, etc.) this ain't a bad place to start. It's well laid out in the basic rules. And, pretty straight forward. I recommend people new to the game learn the differences between the three types of Actions. They aren't hard, but learning them and their terminology helps immensely with understanding what fighters can and cannot do when they Activate.

Most important and helpful is actually pushing miniatures around, and rolling dice. And, even experienced players have to check the rules from time to time. Again, I like the game a lot (warts and all). I don't care if anyone plays it or not. That's their choice, as it should be. But, I do care if people are discouraged from playing it because of misinformation, or petulance towards the game or the manufacturer. That's not doing anyone favors.

You own it. Try it, you just might like it.

Thanks gobbla.
What was bothering me the most was the idea that if i wanted to play a gang like cawdor i now have to read 4 books to do it.

Can you read the main rules and a portion of the gang war books just to run that gang using the basic rules?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Thanks gobbla.
What was bothering me the most was the idea that if i wanted to play a gang like cawdor i now have to read 4 books to do it.

Can you read the main rules and a portion of the gang war books just to run that gang using the basic rules?

Yes sure.

Core rulebook: 2d rules (Zone Mortalis)
GW1: 3d rules (Sector Mechanicus), Turf War campaign
GW3: Armoury, Trading post
GW4: Cawdor

If you want to go further, you can expand to things like hangers-on, brutes, exotic beasts, additional scenarios...

The Necromunda game is great. I enjoy it equally or even more than old Necromunda! It's the layout of the books, never knowing what the correct rules are, the errors that I detest. It would take a small amount of effort to greatly improve the quality.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Anyone who says the release was handled well is definitely delusional. The game has pretty slick combat rules and great models, but the piecemeal releases, padding out maybe two books worth of content into 6 books by endless reprints and intentionally incomplete sections that are replaced wholesale in the next book, and the tiny production budget for the minis (compare our 6 half-sized infantry sprues in 12 months to Titanicus's 3 plastic titan classes plus knights) sure look disastrous to me. It feels like GW is only doing a half-assed attempt at Necromunda out of a sense of obligation and they never expected or wanted it to succeed.

Of course Necromunda has been around for over 20 years without GW's attention and will be around for 20 more, but probably the original edition. If this version survives in any form it will be as a fan rewrite, like NCE.

GW kicks butt at selling boxed Nostalgia. Good games? Not so much.

Its an enjoyable mess.

The reddit rules compendium and the yaktribe gang building tool make things a lot easier

Yep. I guess I'm a little more lenient. I'm as OLD SKOOL as they come. Bought and played the original game on the day it hit the shelves in my FLGS (we didn't have no ebay or Amazon then, just GW direct mail from Europe,ordered via expensive long distance international land line phone calls we made while we were running from Velocirapters and Saber-tooth tigers). Then, years of meager "support." Some magazines with fan written rules and scenarios,and the very occasional miniature releases which were obvious rejects from 40K (Eldar Farseer) and Warhammer Fantasy (Ash Waste Shaman). Specialist Games was an underfunded, under-supported shoestring operation. Then, a sad, half-hearted, doomed to fail revival. Followed by...NOTHING from GW for a decade and a half. So, I know I am lenient when it comes to the less-than-industry-standards of new Necromunda. I'm just amazed it's not only back, but its better than the original! You dang kids have no idea how good you have it, I tell ya! And, maybe I am get'n a little grumpy these days. I earned that right, dang'it!

That said (and, wasn't that worth the read?), I am also amazed that I like the new Zone Mortalis setting so much. Even more than the table-top setting. As you may ken, I'm not one of you young, impatient, participation-prize generation that wants it all, and wants it right now. But, the clock's ticking. I only have so much time left, and still have so much binge watching to do. So, I like a game that is fast, furious, and action filled. Yesterday is a prime example. Due to a classic display of incompetence, my Goliaths were separated into un-mutually supporting clusters, and in dire straights of being overwhelmed by evil Eschers. Right up until I won a single combat in the middle of a major fight in the middle of the board. That started a classic panic avalanche, and the Eschers ran like little girls. Hilarious! Yes, that kind of thing happens on the tabletop, occasionally. But, it's common place in the sewers and tunnels of Zone Mortalis. Hella fun!

That said (and, wasn't that thrill'n?), you get enough in the first basic book, and the box set to jump right in, and start having fun. And, if you want to campaign, that's in the first Gang War. And, yes, I do not like them selling gang rules one at a time, in each Gang War. Or, updating stuff only months old. No one does, except GW accountants. But, there are ways to beat that system. Besides, since when do you kids read hardcopy books, anyway? They have them apps, you know. Even us old timers read ebooks.

 Gobbla wrote:
Even us old timers read ebooks.

It took me 2 months to figure out how to use my tablet.

I just use hard copy books now.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:
Even us old timers read ebooks.

It took me 2 months to figure out how to use my tablet.

I just use hard copy books now.

Shhh...don't tell the kids. They think we're divining ancient wisdom from the hard copies.

 Gobbla wrote:
Yep. I guess I'm a little more lenient. I'm as OLD SKOOL as they come. Bought and played the original game on the day it hit the shelves in my FLGS (we didn't have no ebay or Amazon then, just GW direct mail from Europe,ordered via expensive long distance international land line phone calls we made while we were running from Velocirapters and Saber-tooth tigers). Then, years of meager "support." Some magazines with fan written rules and scenarios,and the very occasional miniature releases which were obvious rejects from 40K (Eldar Farseer) and Warhammer Fantasy (Ash Waste Shaman). Specialist Games was an underfunded, under-supported shoestring operation. Then, a sad, half-hearted, doomed to fail revival. Followed by...NOTHING from GW for a decade and a half. So, I know I am lenient when it comes to the less-than-industry-standards of new Necromunda. I'm just amazed it's not only back, but its better than the original! You dang kids have no idea how good you have it, I tell ya! And, maybe I am get'n a little grumpy these days. I earned that right, dang'it!

That said (and, wasn't that worth the read?), I am also amazed that I like the new Zone Mortalis setting so much. Even more than the table-top setting. As you may ken, I'm not one of you young, impatient, participation-prize generation that wants it all, and wants it right now. But, the clock's ticking. I only have so much time left, and still have so much binge watching to do. So, I like a game that is fast, furious, and action filled. Yesterday is a prime example. Due to a classic display of incompetence, my Goliaths were separated into un-mutually supporting clusters, and in dire straights of being overwhelmed by evil Eschers. Right up until I won a single combat in the middle of a major fight in the middle of the board. That started a classic panic avalanche, and the Eschers ran like little girls. Hilarious! Yes, that kind of thing happens on the tabletop, occasionally. But, it's common place in the sewers and tunnels of Zone Mortalis. Hella fun!

That said (and, wasn't that thrill'n?), you get enough in the first basic book, and the box set to jump right in, and start having fun. And, if you want to campaign, that's in the first Gang War. And, yes, I do not like them selling gang rules one at a time, in each Gang War. Or, updating stuff only months old. No one does, except GW accountants. But, there are ways to beat that system. Besides, since when do you kids read hardcopy books, anyway? They have them apps, you know. Even us old timers read ebooks.

Well said!