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Working on an Imperium force and thinking about what weapons to equip my dudes with. Seems like many weapons have fallen from grace in terms of effectiveness. How are people finding the grenade launcher, autocannon, assult cannon, multi laser, heavy flamer and plasma cannon in today’s warhammer? Seems like most of these 3-4 shot str 6+ weapons are pretty useless today due to their low damage (often 1) and with the removal of instant death. Are theese guns garbage or useful?

Heavy flamer is a lot more useful than the stock flamer imo. Being able to get AP and a 3+ wound on MEQ is pretty good, and on a good flamer roll youll KO at least the gun's points worth of models.

 Nerak wrote:
Working on an Imperium force and thinking about what weapons to equip my dudes with. Seems like many weapons have fallen from grace in terms of effectiveness. How are people finding the grenade launcher, autocannon, assult cannon, multi laser, heavy flamer and plasma cannon in today’s warhammer? Seems like most of these 3-4 shot str 6+ weapons are pretty useless today due to their low damage (often 1) and with the removal of instant death. Are theese guns garbage or useful?

If it's not a Plasma Gun or Battle Cannon, it's not worth taking.

Only time you take Plasma Cannons is on Pask.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
Working on an Imperium force and thinking about what weapons to equip my dudes with. Seems like many weapons have fallen from grace in terms of effectiveness. How are people finding the grenade launcher, autocannon, assult cannon, multi laser, heavy flamer and plasma cannon in today’s warhammer? Seems like most of these 3-4 shot str 6+ weapons are pretty useless today due to their low damage (often 1) and with the removal of instant death. Are theese guns garbage or useful?

If it's not a Plasma Gun or Battle Cannon, it's not worth taking.

Only time you take Plasma Cannons is on Pask.

Lascannon seems strong though.

Ty Vaklor4. Would you say it outperforms a storm bolter or a heavy bolter on a veichle?

8th tends to favour weight of dice which is why the midrange multi-shot weapons see more play

Multilaser took tons of various nerfs in 8th ed so yeah it's useless. Autocannon is getting reneisance of sort a bit with dark eldar and if you face necrons it's handy as well.

I know we're talking imperium, but my experiences with useless weapons is the Webber for the Genestealer cult.

Special rule is that you can use the Strength instead of toughness when wounding. But its a S4 gun with poor ap. So except for death guard and bikes, there arent too many viable targets.

At least not targets that a grenade launcher would be better for.

Well for Orkz, we have a couple of guns that aren't worth taking in 8th. Here let me list them.

Big Shoota, Rokkit, Deff Gun, Deff Kannon, Lobba, Zzap Gun, Kustom Mega Blasta, Kustom Mega Slugga, Burna, Kill Kannon, Smasha Gun, Traktor Kannon, Bubblechukka, Snazzgunz, Grotzooka, Rack of Rokkitz, Deffstorm mega shoota, Liftadroppa, Supa Kannon, Shokk Attack Gun, Kombi Rokkit, Kombi Skorcha, Tellyporta Blasta, Supa-Gatler and Dakka Gunz....to name a few

I wouldn't obsess about it too much unless you're wanting to win tournaments. Every poor weapon is one errata from being awesome and vice versa.

Id say...Theyre different weapons. On a Dreadnaught/helbrute a fist with heavy flamer is great for an assault weapon, and on heavy platforms that need anti-assault, it is far scarier than a heavy bolter. As an aggressive shooting platform, the bolter is way better.

Remember, a flamer is almost never a good aggressive weapon this edition. Use it as a defensive measure only. Even on the above helbrute I mentioned, its purely to protect against getting bogged down in infantry.

It ain't imperial, but the Termagant Strangleweb is the worst gun in the game.

So, at least you can be content in knowing that no matter you take - there is something that's worse.

GL: Longtime Guard player, never liked it. Plasma is superior in 8th, take that instead.

AC: In general, Lascannon is superior. I like to WYSIWYG, so I often take a couple in infantry squads. I miss the extra punch of a lascannon.

MuL: Heavy Bolter is mechanically better or equal against anything with a saving throw.

HvF: Great if you can get into range. Auto hits and good profile.

PC: I like them on Russes. You don’t have to overcharge. Heavy bolters are cheaper, with higher average RoF. My meta has lots of Knights and Marines, so I like the extra punch the PC sponsons afford. Very reasonable arguments for HB sponsons could also be made. Weapons can fire at different targets now.

Mortar Teams: A trio averages about 1 casualty vs MEQ, but it can hide out of LoS and claim an objective while still contributing firepower. Against GEQ, you get an average of 2 casualties. You can take them in bulk though, and 9d6 shots is an average of 31.5 shots, which is awesome for the points invested. I don’t recommend this to line squads, as you want them exposed so they can shoot their other weapons, at which point lascannons.

Sponsons: In Imperial armies, sponsons typically double your volume of firepower on a vehicle. I always go for them, but that does cut into your durability as it reduces your total wounds on the board. 8th is Alpha-edition, so I prefer to cripple my opponents with firepower, rather than actively try to outlast them.

Sergeant Upgrades: Always a gun. CCW to taste, because they’re cheap. I like bolters for IG sarges and Plasma Pistols for characters. They’re cheap, and give them some offence potential in addition to orders. You can shoot pistols in CC during your turn, so acts as a cut-rate power fist. May as well over-charge, you’re going to die anyway.

Melta: Still has a place for me. I run into tough stuff often enough that a damage spike from a melta team can be the difference between success and failure. OC plasma has higher average damage output, slightly, but sometimes you need 5 wounds to kill it, and Plasma can only do 4...

Incinerators and psycannons make no sense at the points they cost, Psi lancers are very situational, and with most armies running around with -1 or -2 to hit, shoting weapons GK have are kind of a worthless.

Karol wrote:
Incinerators and psycannons make no sense at the points they cost, Psi lancers are very situational, and with most armies running around with -1 or -2 to hit, shoting weapons GK have are kind of a worthless.

Psilencers are good...but then again, there's nothing else in the GK arsenal that's noteworthy and they are much too cheap for the number of shots and damage they deal.
Psycannons really are overpriced. What is it, 15 points for a 2 shot S7 AP-1 D1 weapon? That's not great. Psilencers should be D1 and Psycannons should be D3.

 Nerak wrote:
Working on an Imperium force and thinking about what weapons to equip my dudes with. Seems like many weapons have fallen from grace in terms of effectiveness. How are people finding the grenade launcher, autocannon, assult cannon, multi laser, heavy flamer and plasma cannon in today’s warhammer? Seems like most of these 3-4 shot str 6+ weapons are pretty useless today due to their low damage (often 1) and with the removal of instant death. Are theese guns garbage or useful?

I wouldn't call all of those every "in grace" in terms of effectiveness. S6 wouldn't prok Instant Death on anything meaningful.

Assault Cannons are very good. Plasma Cannon is fairly decent.

Grenade Launchers suck, so do Heavy Flamers. Multilasers are just sort of a thing that come with Chimerae, I wouldn't go looking for them.

Autocannons are something I'd pass on in an IG infantry squad, but wouldn't mind loading a Dreadnought up with 4 of.

Something notable is that IG Tank Commanders pay the BS4+ discounted price for Plasma Cannons or Heavy Bolters but are BS3+ [or 2+, for Pask].

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Karol wrote:
Incinerators and psycannons make no sense at the points they cost, Psi lancers are very situational, and with most armies running around with -1 or -2 to hit, shoting weapons GK have are kind of a worthless.

Psilencers are good...but then again, there's nothing else in the GK arsenal that's noteworthy and they are much too cheap for the number of shots and damage they deal.
Psycannons really are overpriced. What is it, 15 points for a 2 shot S7 AP-1 D1 weapon? That's not great. Psilencers should be D1 and Psycannons should be D3.

Psilencers are finally working as intended though, so I'd rather not change their damage profile.

Psycannons should be more like the Assault Cannon and Autocannon like they used to be though. D2 I'd be fine with but I don't want so many over the top changes that we don't have a need for the Psilencer.

All Multi-Meltas are 100% useless.


To Add: Out of your list? I'd say Grenade launcher is the worst.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
All Multi-Meltas are 100% useless.

Yeah I gotta agree with this one. I don't think there's a single platform where I would willingly take one.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Karol wrote:
Incinerators and psycannons make no sense at the points they cost, Psi lancers are very situational, and with most armies running around with -1 or -2 to hit, shoting weapons GK have are kind of a worthless.

Psilencers are good...but then again, there's nothing else in the GK arsenal that's noteworthy and they are much too cheap for the number of shots and damage they deal.
Psycannons really are overpriced. What is it, 15 points for a 2 shot S7 AP-1 D1 weapon? That's not great. Psilencers should be D1 and Psycannons should be D3.

Psilencers are finally working as intended though, so I'd rather not change their damage profile.

Psycannons should be more like the Assault Cannon and Autocannon like they used to be though. D2 I'd be fine with but I don't want so many over the top changes that we don't have a need for the Psilencer.

I'd understand it if it were D3 against demons, as they are supposed to be super effective against warp based entities, but I don't see how it would be D3 against everything else.
As it is, there is no reason to take a psycannon over a psilencer, as the psilencer is cheaper and outdamages it. The psilencer is better than the psycannon in every case for its points cost, even against multiwound models, which is what you'd think the psycannon would be used for. Its not that well balanced, imo.

Same reason Force Weapons do d3 now.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Same reason Force Weapons do d3 now.

I understood it that the D3 damage was a translation of the instant death ability they used to have. Did Psilencers cause instant death?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Same reason Force Weapons do d3 now.

I understood it that the D3 damage was a translation of the instant death ability they used to have. Did Psilencers cause instant death?

They had Force, which was the rule that gave you Instant Death if you activated the Force psychic power.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Same reason Force Weapons do d3 now.

I understood it that the D3 damage was a translation of the instant death ability they used to have. Did Psilencers cause instant death?

Psilencers were the only Force weapon with any range as far as I know.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Same reason Force Weapons do d3 now.

I understood it that the D3 damage was a translation of the instant death ability they used to have. Did Psilencers cause instant death?

Psilencers were the only Force weapon with any range as far as I know.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Same reason Force Weapons do d3 now.

I understood it that the D3 damage was a translation of the instant death ability they used to have. Did Psilencers cause instant death?

They had Force, which was the rule that gave you Instant Death if you activated the Force psychic power.

Huh. Ok, that does make sense then.

For Space Marines in 8th edition, most of the special/heavy weapons are useless. Perhaps none more so than the terrors of 7th edition, Grav weapons. I put Grav on everything in 7th, and now it is completely outshone by plasma, which does a better job for less points. I've said it in several other threads, but the points costs for all the Marines special weapons are too high with the exception of plasma. Flamers should be 5 points, Meltas 12, Plasma 13, Grav 10. Heavies need adjustment as well.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well for Orkz, we have a couple of guns that aren't worth taking in 8th. Here let me list them.

Big Shoota, Rokkit, Deff Gun, Deff Kannon, Lobba, Zzap Gun, Kustom Mega Blasta, Kustom Mega Slugga, Burna, Kill Kannon, Smasha Gun, Traktor Kannon, Bubblechukka, Snazzgunz, Grotzooka, Rack of Rokkitz, Deffstorm mega shoota, Liftadroppa, Supa Kannon, Shokk Attack Gun, Kombi Rokkit, Kombi Skorcha, Tellyporta Blasta, Supa-Gatler and Dakka Gunz....to name a few

This hurts me on a personal level

I had to go back and look some more up because I literally haven't used them in years.

Battlecannons are terrible. They're in a bad spot of only wounding most of what you want to be shooting them at 50% of the time, only have ap2 and swingy damage. Catachan plasma commander tanks put out way more firepower and now give up less itc points if you care about that. I'll take a guaranteed D2 over even D6 damage any day.

 Kommisar wrote:
Battlecannons are terrible. They're in a bad spot of only wounding most of what you want to be shooting them at 50% of the time, only have ap2 and swingy damage. Catachan plasma commander tanks put out way more firepower and now give up less itc points if you care about that. I'll take a guaranteed D2 over even D6 damage any day.

That is rather silly. A D6 has a 1/6th chance to do less then 2 damange, a 1/6th chance to do 2 damage and a 2/3rd chance to do more...up to 3 times as much. I'll take D6 over D2 any day of the week

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:
Battlecannons are terrible. They're in a bad spot of only wounding most of what you want to be shooting them at 50% of the time, only have ap2 and swingy damage. Catachan plasma commander tanks put out way more firepower and now give up less itc points if you care about that. I'll take a guaranteed D2 over even D6 damage any day.

That is rather silly. A D6 has a 1/6th chance to do less then 2 damange, a 1/6th chance to do 2 damage and a 2/3rd chance to do more...up to 3 times as much. I'll take D6 over D2 any day of the week

It's guaranteed damage. I know the math but random damage will always fail you when you need it.