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Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

I mean the rules seem to be based on the assumption that everyone is taking masses of infantry. Hence why all three core troops are cheaper in big squads and have a max size of 20. You also have the obscene firepower of some units. Clearly the designers imagined those units like quad guns and Leviathans stomping through massed ranks of enemy infantry.

But in practice people don’t do this from what I see at my club and online. People disdainfully take a few tacticals in rhino and make do with some implacable advance terminators; then max out on firepower or close combat backed up by tanks. You rarely see 3 squads of 20 tactical even at 4K and when I have mentioned on this forum people think you’re insane to take that many troops. This is one slot more than the bare minimum amount.

Personally I think tacticals and breachers are horribly over costed. These are squads which have mediocre shooting and can only conceivably make their points back by routing an enemy squad. That can only happen if they run down a squad in CC and they’re only likely to win against other troops. If everybody takes terminators and tanks then this never happens. Iam not kidding, I have never seen two blocks of 20 tacticals fight each other in close combat. Usually everything is dead by shooting or the offensive arm of the enemy comprises of Terminators. On foot they are slow and vulnerable to heavy weapons fire. A rhino is cheap and offers good protection. Why take a squad that can’t shoot, can’t win assaults and will likely die before it’s in bolter range? Implacable advance and plentiful rites of war totally nullifies any concern over objectives.

I think they should be almost halved in price. People clearly view them as a points sink and not as viable units. You should be able to bring enough bodies to just overwhelm terminators and be able to lose a squad without thinking “that 300 points could have been a Leviathan or a squad of Invictari”. If the point is that these are cheap and disposable infantry then their cost should reflect that. Three tactical s are not remotely equal to a Terminator with a power fist. 6 tacticals? That’s probably a lot closer to the reality.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 23:47:16



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I do. My foundation for my Sons of Horus are two Legion Tactical Marine Squads of 20 models, with a sergeant armed with melta bombs and a lightning claw and aritificer armor, (or power sword), accompanied by an Apothecary with maybe artificer armor.

42 Space Marines walking up the table with a 3+//5++ and it breaks most armies.

People take smaller squads due to Primarch's Chosen or Pride of the Legion where you can take much smaller, elite units (like Veterans or a Legion special squad) as troops choices. It's less models to purchase, put together, paint, and transport. It's an easy way to get 2,500 or 3,000 point armies. It's also why so many 30K players have heartburn over Custodies. They are a a small, elite army designed to destroy small, elite armies. The only way to out cheese them is to outnumber them. First Custodies player I played against just about a brick when I announced "FURY OF THE LEGION!" and shot him about 60 times with one squad. Turns out its kinda hard to get all 20 Space Marines within 12" of an enemy model... Since then, he doesn't come within 12" of one of my Squads unless he can charge it.

Even when I play against another Legion player, they get a little intimidated when I throw down 60 models in troops. I run 2x 20 model foot sloggers and then 2x 10 models in Rhinos for objectives. It's also a lot harder to break my squads. I don't take morale tests until I lose 6 models. That's twice as many as a 10 model squad. And out numbering my opponent in close combat kicks in "Merciless Fighters" where I get to attack again at initiative 1.

Not all Legions can run infantry like that, but it's a great way to run Sons of Horus.

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Fundamentally, the core rules really push smaller squad sizes. The MSU concept was born out of this, there's just a lot of advantages to running smaller units when possible.

Enemy units can concentrate fire on larger units easier, large units have fewer actions than multiple smaller units, large units cannot engage as many different targets as multiple smaller units, etc.

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WE players are more likely to field a lot of tacticals, but then they're one of the few Legions that can actually get utility out of them.

Otherwise, yeah, the core rules and some of the 30K units create a double whammy that discourages them. But I'm not sure if that was a misstep so much as something the designers just didn't care about. I think their mindset was about the narrative, and that large units were fluffy and look cool. And they do look cool for as long as they're on the table.

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Another thing is scenarios that allows you to win by just killing. With troops only for scoring then imagine army that has 2x10 tacticals and then rest stuff like spartan, primarch, leviathan etc. If scenarios were one that means that if you kill the 2x10 tacticals enemy CANNOT win by not having anything to hold objectives...Would start encouraging taking more troops for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 08:23:08


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MSU in general gives you:

- More free ‘Sergeants’
- Higher ratio of special/heavy weapons
- Choice of targets for your opponent rather than being able to saturate one unit to death... kill one, another may still be functioning.
- Lower losses to Morale

Large squads allow better use of orders or psychic buffs. My regular opponent brings 20 x Guardians regularly, because with Doom and Guide in effect their shooting is terrifying, and he can Webway strike them to mitigate their squishiness and short-ranged weapons. He can play Insane Bravery to ignore Morale and keep them in the game regardless of casualties. They take an age to chew through and can tarpit stuff that would like to be killing more premium targets.

You picks your tactic and you takes your choice!

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England: Newcastle

By the time you throw chaplains, psykers and apothecaries you are putting a lot of points into 20 boltguns. Plus, baseline infantry should be viable before legion rules. These buffs can also go on better squads quite easily. These units are meant to be the mainstay of a Legion army and it is a problem that people outside of WE don’t take blocks of tactical.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 11:19:38



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Nottingham

Probably also because 2 phosphex rapiers can potentially wipe out a 20 man squad in a single round of fire, or leave them reduced to the point of being completely ineffective.

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 JamesY wrote:
Probably also because 2 phosphex rapiers can potentially wipe out a 20 man squad in a single round of fire, or leave them reduced to the point of being completely ineffective.


I’d refuse to play anyone using quad guns so it’s a none issue for me. The unit is disgustingly undercosted and obscenely damage resistant. It basically takes a D template to shift them and they can make their points back in one shot. It’s not fluffy that one of them can put out more firepower than a whole Basilisk battery. The crew also void precision shot and are treated as toughness 8 which is outright disingenuous. FW clearly didn’t play test this unit since I could take two Fellblades and not kill as much as a Quad mortar squad.


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 Totalwar1402 wrote:


I’d refuse to play anyone using quad guns so it’s a none issue for me. The unit is disgustingly undercosted and obscenely damage resistant. It basically takes a D template to shift them and they can make their points back in one shot. It’s not fluffy that one of them can put out more firepower than a whole Basilisk battery. The crew also void precision shot and are treated as toughness 8 which is outright disingenuous. FW clearly didn’t play test this unit since I could take two Fellblades and not kill as much as a Quad mortar squad.


I have two and only two, more is unnecessary. They are good, but they are killable, I've lost mine to deepstriking knight errants, a pair of multimelta attack bikes, enemy phosphex rapier fire, typhon siege guns, drop podding leviathans, scorpius rounds from seekers in scouting landraiders... If someone over took them, I'd probably refuse. One unit I don't think is too bad.

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England: Newcastle

 JamesY wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:


I’d refuse to play anyone using quad guns so it’s a none issue for me. The unit is disgustingly undercosted and obscenely damage resistant. It basically takes a D template to shift them and they can make their points back in one shot. It’s not fluffy that one of them can put out more firepower than a whole Basilisk battery. The crew also void precision shot and are treated as toughness 8 which is outright disingenuous. FW clearly didn’t play test this unit since I could take two Fellblades and not kill as much as a Quad mortar squad.


I have two and only two, more is unnecessary. They are good, but they are killable, I've lost mine to deepstriking knight errants, a pair of multimelta attack bikes, enemy phosphex rapier fire, typhon siege guns, drop podding leviathans, scorpius rounds from seekers in scouting landraiders... If someone over took them, I'd probably refuse. One unit I don't think is too bad.


One unit will win you the game unless you’ve sunk 500 points on some of the specialised counters you listed above. That means in a 3k game I have to sink a sixth of my points or more on dealing with one unit? All it needs is one turn of shooting and it will make its points back. I have seen that unit kill thousands of points worth of stuff. A typhoon won’t instant kill the artillery and it should not take a Lord of War to kill what is ostensibly only supposed to be a portable mortar.

I have to question your objectivity. No other unit can consistently make its points back every turn from turn 1 and do so with total impunity without specialised counters.

It breaks lore. I should be far more terrified of a dozen basilisks shelling me than a few mortars.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 17:59:27



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Objectivity isn't really necessary when near enough every army has access to it. A single predator executioner can wipe out a unit without much trouble, and is hardly a huge point sink. Neither is a five man plasma support squad in a rhino. If a single unit is wiping out thousands of points, I'd think that was more down to tactical errors than anything else.

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 JamesY wrote:
Objectivity isn't really necessary when near enough every army has access to it. A single predator executioner can wipe out a unit without much trouble, and is hardly a huge point sink. Neither is a five man plasma support squad in a rhino. If a single unit is wiping out thousands of points, I'd think that was more down to tactical errors than anything else.


"Every army has access to it" is poor excuse though. It just means every army HAS to take one.

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 JamesY wrote:
Objectivity isn't really necessary when near enough every army has access to it. A single predator executioner can wipe out a unit without much trouble, and is hardly a huge point sink. Neither is a five man plasma support squad in a rhino. If a single unit is wiping out thousands of points, I'd think that was more down to tactical errors than anything else.


They’re barrage weapons so you put behind line of sight blocking terrain and in cover. A predator executioner needs 3s to wound and these are multi wound models. Plus, light tanks will die from anti tank fire before they ever get in range. In fact Pred Ex are expensive so the quad would fire its AT shells and destroy the squadron. Which would again make its points back instantly. Do you really think a rhino can drive across the board without being instantly destroyed. Even if it could, it doesn’t matter. Two turns of shooting and you will have lost two squads and a good chunk of your army. Then the rest of his army dismantles you.

Explain to me why something that looks like 6 space marines does not die like six space marines? Why for example, are the crew toughness 8 and why do the guns have wounds? These are nonsensical rules. When you are asked to roll six to wound the crew in close combat? When Dorn would need a 6 to wound one in close combat? That is obscene. It should be 6 toughness 4 tacticals. If I shoot it in the open with anything it should die. It’s no different than an Imperial Guard Mortar team.

That single unit can wipe out thousands of points because it can kill a unit a turn. Even the cheesiest death star cannot do that because it has to spend a few turns doing nothing and then maybe gets two charges off. Whereas the quad wipes a squad every turn. Nothing short of a Glaive or Titan can do that in the game.

There is no justification for that unit being as powerful as it is. None. It’s described as a light support piece. The Baslisiks are supposed to be the big guns but that bit remotely represented in the points or rules. When was the last time you read about guys being more terrified about a piddly mortar than a basilisk?

My point though is that, dumb stuff like that ruins the game because it means I can’t take an infantry heavy army and I can’t take certain units because one unit can delete my stuff at will. Why take a lascannon squad? Why take foot breachers? Why take tacticals? It encourages you to drop infantry outright and that’s pretty depressing since the game was clearly meant to be about massed infantry and isn’t because FW wrote in dumb units like quad phos which would have been errata’d if they had any sense.


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Probably not the right thread for this discussion, so probably best not to continue it and derail it any further. For clarity though, whilst I don't agree with you that quad mortars should be a no (although maybe limited to 0-1 like artillery squadrons) I do agree that wargames should center around troops, and so rules shouldn't automatically prohibit taking them in quantity.

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 JamesY wrote:
Probably not the right thread for this discussion, so probably best not to continue it and derail it any further. For clarity though, whilst I don't agree with you that quad mortars should be a no (although maybe limited to 0-1 like artillery squadrons) I do agree that wargames should center around troops, and so rules shouldn't automatically prohibit taking them in quantity.


Quad Mortars are an Elites choice, with 1-3 using up a single Elite choice. Meaning you could take 9 Rapier Quad Mortars with Phosphex Shells for 720 points, and oh, you have to take a Seige Breaker Consul for +95 more points. So for 815 points, you get: 18 Space Marines at Toughness 7, and a cannon that is 12"-36", S4, AP3, Heavy 4, Barrage, blast (3"), Poison (3+), crawling fire, and lingering death. Crawling Fire: move the blast marker up to 2" after it has been placed in any direction as long as it covers more models. Lingering Death: Leave the blast marker in play for the rest of the game: all models treat this as dangerous terrain- anytime a model moves into, out of, or moves within the dangerous terrain, roll a d6: on a 1, that model takes a wound. It also counts as difficult terrain.

Nine Rapier's are going to be placing 36 small blast templates every shooting phase that will wreck any MEQ unit on the table. Those templates remain for the entire game. It's entirely possible that the entire board within 12"-36" of the Mortars will be covered in multiple 3" Dangerous Terrain circles. The Rapiers will be in cover and out of line of sight. They will auto hit anything under the blast template, and they will get to move the blast template after it's placed up to 2", and wound anything with a toughness on a 3+. It can immobilize vehicles- as a vehicle will have to test for every blast template area it moves into. No other unit in the game has that kind of points/Kill ratio, and it's one of the most difficult units to destroy, as it probably is out of line of sight and in cover with T7, and a 3+/4++ save.

Rapiers by themselves are OK, it's when you give them the Phosphex Shells upgrade that they become the most obscene, broken unit in 30K. Many, many house rules limit players to zero or maybe 1 Rapier Quad Mortar with Phosphex Shells. My meta we straight up do not allow anyone to take them.

If you play in a meta that allows Rapiers with Phosphex, then yeah, you don't run infantry heavy anything. Even mounting everything in a Rhino, Drop Pod or Outflank doesn't help. Could you deal with a unit of 1-3 Rapiers? Maybe, with a suicide squad or somehow getting across the board through your opponent's lines with a vehicle with multiple AP3, cover ignoring, S7+ shots. "So what your saying is there is a chance..."

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Nottingham

@Tamwulf I am more than familiar with the rules, which I why I very cleary said in my second post that two of them was more than enough. I have never been an advocate for taking the maximum possible amount of nine. What I have also said is that someone taking them in small numbers shouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle to the point of refusing them.

@tneva82 I wasn't offering it as an excuse, I was stating that my view isn't based on a lack of objectivity, and it is a unit that can be dealt with.

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It really does depend on legion and meta.

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I'd like to toss in on this one.

I play the 12TH Legion in all their glory. I love tanks and troops. If "No one plays with big blobs" in your area, then it's because they don't know how. The first person to respond to you showed a picture of 3 Scorpius tanks, what we jokingly call the great friendmakers. I would love to play against 3 Scorpius tanks. They are the most slot inefficient unit in the game. With three of them, you have no heavy support. You have artillery, but I will beat you every game. Because my Spartans and Land Raiders could not care less about them and you have no real heavy support, you can just kill basic infantry. For almost the same cost you can take three vindicators. That uses up only one slot and scares everything. Now, I might have brought out all my foot blobs and you might blow the crap out of most of them or even all of them, but I have a ton of other stuff in the army to worry about that when it starts cutting you up, you'll feel really stupid for wasting your entire heavy support allotment on 500 points of objective holders for as long as you did. Sometimes, the matchup favours you, sometimes it doesn't, but trust me, don't dismiss massed infantry out of hand. Our group is very very very very into the fluff and stories and books and history and such, but we crush all comers far more often than not with our fluffy, big unit lists.

Not to pick on one post, but try taking them. Figure out how to use them. A full brick with Vexilla, armour and fist costs only 260 points. Add an apothecary and for relatively little cost, it's hard to move, scores and is quite Killy. Not to mention, you literally get more points by going bigger! Will stuff kill it? Sure, but it takes work and a single survivor is all you need to hold an objective. What is your opponent not shooting at by blowing up your boring, baseline troop?

You don't have to take big squads, but you do get rewarded for doing it. When I play against an opponent with piddly litte units, I salivate, because they have zero staying power. You know what is also great? 20 strong assault squads. Take two sets with apothecaries and laugh at casualties. Force the issue.

Like with everything in 30k, bigger is cheaper. Once you start using big groups and learn how to play them well then you'll see why those of us who use them, love them. Do I like small units occasionally? Sure, sometimes I love taking nothing but vets with power weapons in land raiders. That's when the 10 man tacticals in rhinos get used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/24 00:10:28


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I actually run 3x 20 Imperialis Militia in my Army of Dark Compliance army and I have decent games every time. Even vs a quad mortar battery, (on,y one unit of 3 and no phosphex, I stil, had a challenging game but a rewarding win. Large numbers of infantry can do well because a lot of people really do not expect it.

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I take 2 big blobs of 20 grey slayers in pretty much every outing with my VIth, they're an excellent unit and really shine in big units of 20. I think they have to be in large numbers to be worth taking though tbh as if they're in small numbers, by the time they've reached their enemy they've been whittled down to much to be of any effect. being in big blobs allows them to take some casualties on their way across the board and still be very effective.

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Like most questions about Warhammer it depends on your environment. People don't take 20-man squads if they see three Thanatars or phosphex-mortar batteries across the table every game, they do if they don't see massed AP3 templates and they do see targets vulnerable to bolter fire/chainsword attacks.

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I take multiple 20 man tactical squads with apothecaries on foot every single game. There is no better unit for taking ground, holding objectives, and being a genuine menace. The sheer amount of area they can threaten with fury of the legion or the threat of massed ccw attacks is pretty amazing.

   
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England: Newcastle

I have seen blocks of 20 used by other people, but usually:

- Only when heavily supported by their own quad phos and a gun line. In other words, it doesn’t matter since the infantry will never be fighting. Any oppponent will be focusing his efforts on killing tanks and artillery.

- Always with apothecaries. Which should not be a requirement but in practice.

- World eaters because they get free stuff for being World Eaters.

But generally its just not done. So I think people who say “my infantry blocks work” that probably only happens because your opponent never shot at them because you had other stuff they were focusing on. They are an irrelevance.

I mean my impression is they are overly expensive window dressing. They can’t hold ground because a stray breeze can kill them and they just are not cheap enough. Why is a Leviathan Dread as much as an upgraded tactical squad? That’s a tad unbalanced. The excuse that “a lascannin can one shot a vehicle” is moot when large blasts can and do one shot infantry blocks. So infantry are over costed.

If a unit is intended to not kill anything and just be a bullet magnet it should not cost hundreds of points. Why can I buy a Sicaran Arcus which is less points than a 20 tactical but can kill far more stuff every turn? Whereas tactical cant hurt vehicles, have weak shooting and lose most combats.

Fury of the Legion means that instead of killing one marine you might kill two instead. If a Sicaran Arcus stands still it fires twice and doesn’t forgo shooting. Which will kill five marines. Only they could be terminators, tanks and you get the idea. The stars are rarely going to align to let you fury in rapid fire with all the squad. That is the same logic that says “this plasma pistol can blow up a Storm Eagle so it must be good”.

For example we recently did a 10k vs 10k game. Pretty much everything me and four other guys had. So I ended up throwing in three ten man tacticals and a big assault squad. This is about a 1000 points of dead weight. A handful of tech thralls and one jetbike. Half the assault squad dead to a jetbike squads shooting a turn after deep striking. Whereas the Iron Warriors player with an Achiles, Basilisks, Terminators and Sicaran is clearing house? I could easily cut those units out and the army would be just as effective. They served no function. Not when I can take fearless cult troops for a fifth of the points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/29 00:22:57



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Blackclad Wayfarer





Philadelphia

Pride of the Legion and all Terminators does some work

Power Armour? 20 Man Blob squads with Apothecaries.. I've only run this since I haven't bothered to buy Rhinos. They will be a brick that sits on an objective... but their output of damage is really really bad. Especially when they wander into combat with anything melee oriented

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





I play necrons and one of the best things I can do is bring like 2 or 3 groups of warriors, but because of the fact that they dont like to die I think it's just more fesabel than 20 space marines. I also see a lot of troops in chaos, tyranid and ork armys so I suppose it just depends.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Ticker01 wrote:
I play necrons and one of the best things I can do is bring like 2 or 3 groups of warriors, but because of the fact that they dont like to die I think it's just more fesabel than 20 space marines. I also see a lot of troops in chaos, tyranid and ork armys so I suppose it just depends.


You play Necrons in 30k?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Warwickscire

In a word:



On a more serious note, the sheer amount of AP3 and greater firepower coupled with the all or nothing AP system means tacticals die in droves. Until you do something about Typons or Fellblades being able to remove hordes in a turn, then you're stuck. The other option is to come up with a gentlemens agreement (no Typhons, quads and/or being able to take the void shield harness from conquest for example).

However, being creative with rites of war is another option. For example, I am changing my Alpha Legion into being a headhunter leviathal with more emphasis on troops and surprise deployment. 2 headhunter squads, Lascannon squad, destroyer squad and a veteran squad mixed into termites, rhinos, bunkers, land raiders and dreadclaws. Stick a Cerberus and Vindicator laser destroyers in and I'm set. Maybe take a more unusual approach with your legion using the rites to be able to take troops while mitigating their weaknesses?
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Houston, TX

In general there is an imbalance between powerful units and weak ones that the points don’t really address. For example, super heavies seem under-costed for how much harder they are to kill than other stuff. And of course there is the built in issue of stronger stuff being able to kill weaker stuff, but no matter how much weak stuff you have, you cannot possibly even damage a high AV. When there are super heavies and titans in a game, they tend to face off because they are the only things with a good chance of killBig each other.

I think that’s one thing they tried to fix in WH40k 8th edition by making it so anything can hurt anything. So even weenies have at least a chance against powerful units by rolling enough dice. Personally, I like the HH system of AV and vehicle facings but you need to play with likeminded players who don’t abuse it. A full army of AV14 is possible and would be extremely frustrating and un-fun for a fluffy army to play against.

I think the rules writers need to account for this sort of thing. Basic troops should be the most cost effective units (as they are in real life) and armies with lots of troops should be very effective. Specialists should mostly be taken in order to fill specialized roles and do specific things but be costly enough points-wise to prevent armies that are 90% specialists and 10% basic troops from being the norm.

They could also have more rules that favored troops. I like that only troops can hold objectives but like others mentioned, that only applies in maybe half of games. And in the games where you get the same VP for killing a squad of Auxilia Mitilia or a Spartan, why would you take Auxilia? That needs to change for sure. I like the missions where killing Heavy Supports and Elites is worth more VPs than killing troops. It makes sense logically that destroying those elite and important units is more important because they cannot be easily replaced like basic troops can. It would encourage generals to limit their exposure by not putting too many on the battlefield at once, like a real general would have to consider.

Or the same way that troops get cheaper the more you buy, powerful units like tanks and HQs and dreadnoughts should get more expensive the more of them you buy, representing the logistical challenge of gathering so many supposedly more-rare units together and leaving the rest of the army (that’s not in the game) bereft of heavy support.

Also, maybe infantry should have a better rule for Going to Ground that people might actually use to help their survivability.

Just throwing out some ideas. Feel free to hate them.

Xhorik 87th Drop Troops P&M blog https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/775655.page

Project log and campaign featuring Orks, Imperial Guard, Marines, Tyranids: http://www.xhorikwar.blogspot.com/
Currently focused on our Horus Heresy campaign with White Scars, Death Guard and Imperial Militia.  
   
 
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