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Let vehicles/monsters move and fire heavy weapons without penalties to hit rolls.

I just think it's strange that vehicle mounted weapons are as maneuverable as the same weapons but hand carried. Plus I'd like to be able to move my sentinels without suddenly shooting like an ork.

Dandelion wrote:
Let vehicles/monsters move and fire heavy weapons without penalties to hit rolls.

I just think it's strange that vehicle mounted weapons are as maneuverable as the same weapons but hand carried. Plus I'd like to be able to move my sentinels without suddenly shooting like an ork.

As an ork I'd also agree with this, as we get the move and shoot like a blind ork from vehicles.

I would suggest though that vehicles should be at a -1 to hit against targets within 6", to represent that turrets rotate a lot more slowly than infantry can and thus are less responsive

Or how about a generic rule of "Any model with S7 or higher ignores the move-shoot penalty".

Nah, I’d rather there was a bonus to hit larger vehicle/creatures that offsets the movement penalty.

It should be relatively easy to hit a Baneblade with a rocket launcher or plasma cannon, even on the move, and dead easy to hit one from a standing position. Targeting scuttling infantry with the same weapon should be more difficult than bringing a rifle or pistol to bear on them.

The only exception I could see to the above might be Heavy Bolters or Assault cannons (anything designed specifically to mow down infantry) - but those guns could be given some sort of exception or it might just make more sense that you want to use those weapons, you want to fire them from a static position.

@Valkyrie
Nah, just use VEHICLE and MONSTER keywords and call it a day. Sentinels aren't S7 so that doesn't help much there despite them supposedly being scout vehicles.

@Stormonu
There's a couple issues with that, that I see:
- How do you define size without getting into arguments?
- It seems more like a core rule then a vehicle ability, or at least would be better implemented as a core rule.
- Do infantry get the same bonus? If so it kinda messes up the distinction between them and vehicles. (Guard HWS are currently as accurate on the move as a chimera somehow, which is what I feel should change)

The main issue I see with this suggestion is that it would require points drops on units that already have this rule and are paying for it, some arn't *cough*Leman CheeseCake Tank*Cough* so you would have to drop points from the models already paying for this rule.

Dandelion wrote:
@Valkyrie
Nah, just use VEHICLE and MONSTER keywords and call it a day. Sentinels aren't S7 so that doesn't help much there despite them supposedly being scout vehicles.

@Stormonu
There's a couple issues with that, that I see:
- How do you define size without getting into arguments?
- It seems more like a core rule then a vehicle ability, or at least would be better implemented as a core rule.
- Do infantry get the same bonus? If so it kinda messes up the distinction between them and vehicles. (Guard HWS are currently as accurate on the move as a chimera somehow, which is what I feel should change)

It would have to be added at the data sheet level. Something like: “Side of a Barn: Enemy models get a +1 bonus on To Hit rolls when targeting this model”

-1 to hit for moving vehicles seems reasonable to me. Rough terrain and maneuvering is going to make firing less accurate. Perhaps some vehicle weapons should get special rules to allow them to ignore the penalty though (e.g. the Predator autocannon could have stabilisation).

Yeah, could come at this multiple ways:

Stabilizers: This model does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing Heavy weapons. (Handles the Predator situation above)

Bulletstorm: This weapon does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing. (Something to put on Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Assault Cannons)

Large: Enemy models gain a +1 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (mostly on non-character models with 5+ wounds; on character models on a case-by-case basis)

Huge: Enemy models gain a +2 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (Titanic, Superheavies and Knights)

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, could come at this multiple ways:

Stabilizers: This model does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing Heavy weapons. (Handles the Predator situation above)

Bulletstorm: This weapon does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing. (Something to put on Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Assault Cannons)

Large: Enemy models gain a +1 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (mostly on non-character models with 5+ wounds; on character models on a case-by-case basis)

Huge: Enemy models gain a +2 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (Titanic, Superheavies and Knights)

Jesus you obviously hate anyone who wants to play with vehicals knights would be unplayable with those rules. IG would be hitting them on 2+ rerolling 1's

Marines etc would be hitting on 1+ and plasma spam would be insane never overheating autohitting hellblasters. Thats going to be a super fun time game.

Ice_can wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, could come at this multiple ways:

Stabilizers: This model does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing Heavy weapons. (Handles the Predator situation above)

Bulletstorm: This weapon does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing. (Something to put on Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Assault Cannons)

Large: Enemy models gain a +1 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (mostly on non-character models with 5+ wounds; on character models on a case-by-case basis)

Huge: Enemy models gain a +2 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (Titanic, Superheavies and Knights)

Jesus you obviously hate anyone who wants to play with vehicals knights would be unplayable with those rules. IG would be hitting them on 2+ rerolling 1's

Marines etc would be hitting on 1+ and plasma spam would be insane never overheating autohitting hellblasters. Thats going to be a super fun time game.

I own a knight army and a tank-heavy SM & IG army, keep that in mind.
I also always play natural 1 Overheats (NOT modified), regardless what the current rules say.

Huge is truly optional, but do you really think someone pointing a gun at a 5-story tall war machine is going to miss it? Wounding it may be another thing, and to me, it makes sense that someone *standing still* with a heavy weapon should hit a lot easier than if they fire from the hip. Yes, it’ll also benefit the likes of lasguns and Bolters - but those big vehicles have a high toughness and good armor saves for a reason.

 Stormonu wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, could come at this multiple ways:

Stabilizers: This model does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing Heavy weapons. (Handles the Predator situation above)

Bulletstorm: This weapon does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing. (Something to put on Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Assault Cannons)

Large: Enemy models gain a +1 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (mostly on non-character models with 5+ wounds; on character models on a case-by-case basis)

Huge: Enemy models gain a +2 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (Titanic, Superheavies and Knights)

Jesus you obviously hate anyone who wants to play with vehicals knights would be unplayable with those rules. IG would be hitting them on 2+ rerolling 1's

Marines etc would be hitting on 1+ and plasma spam would be insane never overheating autohitting hellblasters. Thats going to be a super fun time game.

I own a knight army and a tank-heavy SM & IG army, keep that in mind.
I also always play natural 1 Overheats (NOT modified), regardless what the current rules say.

Huge is truly optional, but do you really think someone pointing a gun at a 5-story tall war machine is going to miss it? Wounding it may be another thing, and to me, it makes sense that someone *standing still* with a heavy weapon should hit a lot easier than if they fire from the hip. Yes, it’ll also benefit the likes of lasguns and Bolters - but those big vehicles have a high toughness and good armor saves for a reason.

Actually more people miss against the biggest most threatening enemy war machines than against the more normal threat levels as adrenalin rush, fear, moving target, etc tend to make them rush the shot and miss more often. Troops with better training and experience tend to be able less affected.

The only way to really represent such a thing in 40k would be leadership tests but the last thing 8th edition needs is more rolling.

@Castor

Rough terrain and maneuvering also makes infantry less accurate with regular guns. No one running around shooting a lasgun is going to be super accurate but they don't get a penalty for that. And to a Sentinel a multilaser is their lasgun.
And why should a two man team carrying an autocannon be as accurate on the move as a sentinel on the move? The infantry have to lug the thing around while the sentinel is built and balanced around carrying the gun.
I just think it would be easier to just give a global bonus and work around that. Not to mention it may encourage more movement since staying put is no longer the most efficient play. (imo anything that discourages movement risks forcing more static games)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, could come at this multiple ways:

Stabilizers: This model does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing Heavy weapons. (Handles the Predator situation above)

Bulletstorm: This weapon does not suffer a penalty to hit when moving and firing. (Something to put on Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Assault Cannons)

The first is fine, but the second one will apply to anyone carrying those guns, which includes infantry. Guard HWS will be able to move without penalty.

Large: Enemy models gain a +1 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (mostly on non-character models with 5+ wounds; on character models on a case-by-case basis)

Huge: Enemy models gain a +2 bonus To Hit when targeting this model (Titanic, Superheavies and Knights)

Yeah, this is way too much. This isn't even a fix to vehicles but just a general increase in firepower across the board and would be a headache to balance I think. The game will play the same except big stuff dies faster. A lot faster. You've almost doubled efficiency against knights with no other changes, that and Tau, Guard and Orks benefit the most by far. Which is unfair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Actually more people miss against the biggest most threatening enemy war machines than against the more normal threat levels as adrenalin rush, fear, moving target, etc tend to make them rush the shot and miss more often. Troops with better training and experience tend to be able less affected.

The only way to really represent such a thing in 40k would be leadership tests but the last thing 8th edition needs is more rolling.

Also a good point. There's also the fact that you're probably being suppressed by some really big guns. Remember the rules are an abstraction.

IMO the compromise between vehicles being better than infantry at shooting on the move and movement reducing firepower is to allow vehicles to ignore the -1 penalty when moving half their maximum distance or less. This essentially goes back to the older rules where vehicles had a maximum effective speed and a maximum no/poor shooting speed.

Knights should get +1 to hit because they are huge. It should be hard to miss these guys. I agree about giving vehicles with heavy weapons the ignore -1 to hit rule for moving and firing heavy weapons. Maybe add up to half its current movement value.

So, maybe something like this?

Grinding Advance: This model can move half its movement rate and ignore the penalty to hit for moving and firing Heavy weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO the compromise between vehicles being better than infantry at shooting on the move and movement reducing firepower is to allow vehicles to ignore the -1 penalty when moving half their maximum distance or less. This essentially goes back to the older rules where vehicles had a maximum effective speed and a maximum no/poor shooting speed.

Isn't that what advancing represents?

Anyway, I'd personally still prefer no limitation on movement but I'll take half movement if it sits better with most players.

leopard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Let vehicles/monsters move and fire heavy weapons without penalties to hit rolls.

I just think it's strange that vehicle mounted weapons are as maneuverable as the same weapons but hand carried. Plus I'd like to be able to move my sentinels without suddenly shooting like an ork.

As an ork I'd also agree with this, as we get the move and shoot like a blind ork from vehicles.

I would suggest though that vehicles should be at a -1 to hit against targets within 6", to represent that turrets rotate a lot more slowly than infantry can and thus are less responsive

Going off this, I'd kinda like to see vehicles being able to use their weapons in melee, but at their WS. Only problem being some ork vehicles then become more effective when smashed into the enemy.... if that counts a problem.

Since the -1 is such a slap on the wrist already, I feel like removing the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon for half the units in the game would just make feel even more pointless than it already is. Vehicles having relentless made sense when moving with a heavy weapon prevented you from firing, you know, AT ALL. Less so now.

I see where you're coming from. I do think it's something worth addressing for Sentinels.

Im not a huge fan of giving to hit buffs for shooting vehicles. From a gameplay perspective it dis-proportionally helps armies with poor ballistic skills and makes vehicles even easier to kill. From a fluff perspective it can be attributed to the fact that to actually damage a vehicle you to aim for and hit weak points in its armor or hit actually vital areas that will cause meaningful damage.

I think a general rule for vehicles that allow them to count as being stationary if they moved less than half their movement value is a good solution and doesnt require a bunch of special rules. Maybe allow walkers their full move as they are generally slower. 8th edition has removed a lot of the trade off between mobility and firepower, especially for infantry. They dont need to remove all of it.