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So next on my list is a Vampire Count army. I always thought that Vampires looked comical in old Warhammer, but after Mordheim and seeing the later Vampire models, I really like the idea of an army based around a Blood Dragon or something. Also, I wanted to be able to use some of the models for a Undead Warband in Mordheim.

So working within my 700pt cap which I know makes all of you want to puke, this is what I am coming up with:

Thrall with Light Armor and Ring of Barrows (117)
Necromancer (64)
5 Black Knights as Wight Cavalry with Champ, Standard, and Musician (130)
10 Grave Guard with Champ, Standard, and Musician (140)
10 Skeleton Warriors with Champ, Standard, and Musician (100)
10 Zombies (50)
10 Crypt Gouls

Comes in at 701. Certainly exposes me to enough variety for what is in the lists. And I don't have much to expand on. The Zombies and Ghouls come in handy for Mordheim, so I know I want those, but I don't know the value of the other units. None of these are shooty. The Skeleton Warriors seem like your typical unit to base an army on, so I assume I would have those. I don't know if the Grave Guard are worth it though. I have to get most of these sets individually, and the Battalion boxes seem to go for alot and I don't think I would ever use some of the units, like the Black Coach.

What do you think?

Oh dear undead basic infantry in units of ten simply dont work.
They crumble to nothing. Besides you will always end up with more zombies, even if only briefly.Zombies only get d6 summon from Nehek.

MSU Ghouls autobreak in Ravening Hordes. Please read the 'small print'. Yes its all small print but you get the idea.

I would buy:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Start-Collecting-Skeleton-Horde



Your Wight cavalry and a portion of your skeletons. The monsterous character that comes with them costs as much on its own as the rest of the set. Leave that aside for now, or trade it.
Five Wight cavalry cost you 155pts with equipment shown, which is a an ok deal.

A Mortarch is a nice model kit with three special character rider options, its a converters dream. If you don't mind harming its resale value you could remove the Mannfred or Neferata model, place them on a spare steed and you have a mounted Vampire character.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Deathrattle-Skeleton-Warriors-2017



20 Skeleton warriors with full command will cost you 170pts, 190pts if you take spears. You could add 20pts more for light armour a 5+ save is weak but useful, a 6+ is laughable.


http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/undead-zombie-swarm-40-figures.html



One or two packs of this. 40 Zombies each. 20 Zombies cost 100pts, the rest you summon on.
Mantic zombies are better than GW ones. You will need to rebase anyway. Though Mantic models come on square bases that by happy coincidence fit WHFB, though they are not bevelled. Thiscmay or may not matter to you.


I looked at the list itself and what you could fill to 700pts that wouldn't get crumbled off the field and resembled your list.

I came up with

Your character options - Vampire and Necro
5 Wight cavalry - full command
20 Skeleton Warriors - full command, equip to taste
Spend rest of points on zeds in one or two units. Number of zeds varies depending on points cost spent on characters. You could conceivably field all 40.

Yeah, at that low of a points cost army, I'd say Orlanth has about the size of it. My only addendum is that I see no point in a Vampire under 1,000, and you HAVE to have a wizard general because of the Undead rule.

I'd almost say a unit of 20 Grave Guard instead of the Knights, take some Dire Wolves if you need flankers.

I think the Getting starter is a better buy, it costs less than two boxes of Grave Guard and includes some of the needed basic skeletons. Budget is clearly an issue here.

As for the general the necro is, low ld is not an issue. The army contains a vampire because its faction flavour and KTG17 wants one. If forced to play 700pts in 6th I would want to go Necro and Vampire too. The vampire in a small game will enable a lot of combat potential in a small space.

Wight cavalry are underpriced in my opinion yes a foot unit would be nice, but mobility is needed and the Black knights can flank charge a unit tied up with zeds. However they are not just flankers they are the decisive arm, other than the vampire himself. Dire Wolves don't quite cut it and Grave Guard can be contained.

As for the army being too small, that is a recurring theme on these threads. KTG17 will find this out in his own time, and because of then umber of armies he is collecting he is bound to either give up on WHFB entirely to greatly expand his collections. The army core offered is a good starting point and is relevant for nay edition of WHFB being played..

Both opinions are valid here, and he's asking for input so I'd say his list is fluid, wouldn't you?

Here's my thought, even compared to the other armies he'll be up against at that point level, he'll be outnumbered, which is the one thing you DON'T want in a VC army.

Given that $85 gives him three units, two of which are usable at that point level, I'd HARDLY call that the best bang for his buck. He can find Skellies on ebay all day long, especially the older set. That, and scouting for some fixer upper auctions will maximize his dollar AND give him more options.

I'm a sucker for Bat Swarms, but I didn't recommend them because of the point level set and the need to have a core. I'm thinking largely for what would maximize the VC footprint and make the most of the Fear rules. THAT is their true strength. If he is going to build at the level of his first list, even then the box you suggest is two of seven units he wants. Hardly what I'd call the best value, especially since the MC would be dust fodder until he decides to hit 2,000 pt. forces.

Grave Guard are nasty, give you that. They are reliable, give you that too. I have two large blocks, one with great weapons one without, both are great and the lesser used latter are underrated.

I dont think this list will has a low model count, 60 infantry is up there and is a lot more than in the OP. Trouble is there is a minimum investment level for characters in a VC list that cannot be skimped on past a certain point. The smaller the list the larger the mandatory % taken up, we dont notice this because at 2000pts you dont really have problems, and do have options. Because the armies are at the 700pt limit and you MUST take the basic character set up of spellcaster plus a combat character you are taking points away from rank and file.
At an absolute minimum one need a zombie based list at these points limits to claw back the numbers, with room for other things on top. Besides Mantic zeds are decent and cheap and a good start for any VC player.

Your basic argument other than that holds merit One could take two boxsets of Grave Guard, drop the skeletons and Wight cavalry and rely on the zombies for numbers. It IS a viable alternative. However it isnt interesting in my opinion. Grave Guard are skellies plus, they don't bring any flavour that skeleton warriors cannot provide. I think the skeletons and Wight cavalry make a better combo in terms of gameplay.

One the point value hits 1000pts Grave guard can be added at the cost of some zeds and the list can operate more like VC should.

As for purchases, I can only propose existing boxsets for universal advice, of course KTG17 will need to go to a discount supplier for those, or try his luck on auction sites. He would be advised not to turn up his nose at buying a whole VC army, even if it exceeds his 700pt limit. This is likely to happen anyway.

A combat character isn't "necessary" for a VC army, especially at that point level. What are you really paying for? 3 attacks at WS 6? So roughly 2 wounds max, on average? For the same points cost as about 10 Dire Wolves, or about 15 Zombies. If he wanted to go economy CC character, a Wight Lord is a better choice at that point level.

What I'm saying is that the bread and butter for a 6th Edition VC army is size to push the Fear rule and make up for crumble, and sinking 100 points into 1 model that doesn't have any necromantic spells to COUNTER that seems counterintuitive at best.

Also, the minimum investment count in a VC army is the General, who isn't required to be a combat character. The Ravening Hordes list doesn't have the necromancer requirement, but the spell list is essential to the function of the army. Also, bear in mind that Dire Wolves in that list are not fast cavalry, which means they get rank bonus, AND they get +1A on the charge, making them a cheap yet effective flanker. AND while not necessarily the power hitter that Mounted Wights are, they still have enough attacks to do some REAL damage on a flank charge.

Your economy CC character costs 10pts less.

However the OP wants lots of 700pt flavourful lists. This means having a Vampire in the Vampire Counts army makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However point on the dead dogs. Its an option and they are cheap to buy a sizable number of them.

Trouble is they lack staying power, unless you specifically want them with Grave Guard.

You proposing:

Dire Wolves
Grave Guard
Zombies

as an alternative layout for 700pts?

Pitch the Grave Guard and go with skeletons, then. Don't fixate on what you think WON'T work, or try to list build in such a way to invalidate what WILL work.

Look at it this way, then: if he is going to insist on a Thrall, then he needs to make sure the rest of the army compensates for that point sink. If it means no Knights or Grave Guard, then so be it. Throw a unit of Skellie Spearmen in there instead. Whatever plugs the hole as cheaply as possible points wise. Give me a bit when I'm not literally running a machine at work to sit down with the Ravening Hordes list and a calculator, and I'll whip up something that'll illustrate what I mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, two quick and dirty lists that I came up with on the fly here at work:

Hero - Thrall - Heavy Armor, Shield, Ring of The Barrows - 126 points
Hero - Necromancer (Level 2) - 2 Dispel Scrolls - 150 points
Core - Zombies (20 strong) - 100 points
Core - Zombies (20 strong) - 100 points
Special - Dire Wolves (10 strong) - 110 points
Special - Dire Wolves (10 strong) - 110 points

696 points total

The benefit of this is two solid blocks to transport the characters and two rather decent flankers. It's a fairly big footprint on the battlefield for the points level, and should hold its own against most of the other 700 point forces you have already

Hero - Thrall - Heavy Armor, Shield, Ring of The Barrows - 126 points
Hero - Necromancer (Level 2) - Dispel Scroll - 125 points
Core - Zombies (15 strong) - 75 points
Core - Zombies (15 strong) - 75 points
Core - Skeletons (15 strong) - Heavy Armor, Spears, Full Command - 110 points
Special - Dire Wolves (10 strong) - 110 points

691 Total

If you can find some magic trinket worth 10 points to throw on the Necromancer, you'd bump it up to 701, but I think it's close enough. Also worth noting that Skeletons in Ravening Hordes come stock with Shields, which is why I didn't list them above.

The big shebang for this force is that you're not at max rank size with your foot troops, and will depend on Invocation of Nehek to bulk them up. Past that, your Skeletons should be able to absorb quite a bit of damage and hold long enough for you to flank with either Zombies or the Wolves, Regardless, it's still more than viable to take on the lists you've shown us so far.


Had we gone up to 1,000 points, I would have thrown in some Bat Swarms or maybe the Mounted Wights. Probably the Grave Guard at that point, honestly. Either way, you see what you can do with what little points value you have and still be comparable.



As a footnote, NONE of my army lists would have Ghouls as they are in Ravening Hordes. They are far too unreliable with their autobreak rule for me to even consider.

Yeah I def want a Thrall. The vampire is actually the main reason for my wanting an undead army. Everything centers around him as far as I am concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tony I like your second army list better, but why no Ghouls? I kinda wanted to get those guys. Are they just not that good?

Tony's lists work as much as you can fit models around the vamp and mandatory necro.

You frankly MUST take zombies at 700pts in order to have a sizable army, and you are reliant on numbers.

As mentioned in my first reply ghouls have negative special rules in Ravening Hordes. They simply DO NOT WORK as MSU units, and at 700pts you cannot afford a proper size unit.
Read the entry on ghouls in Ravening Hordes to see why.

Ghouls are a lot better in the later army books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:


Hero - Thrall - Heavy Armor, Shield, Ring of The Barrows - 126 points
Hero - Necromancer (Level 2) - Dispel Scroll - 125 points
Core - Zombies (15 strong) - 75 points
Core - Zombies (15 strong) - 75 points
Core - Skeletons (15 strong) - Heavy Armor, Spears, Full Command - 110 points
Special - Dire Wolves (10 strong) - 110 points

The better of the two lists in my opinion. I would take hand weapons with the skeletons to save 15pts you can spend on a few more skeletons.

Zombies should be in blocks of 16, as you can deploy ranked infantry in four files.

I'm pretty much hard wired for 5 man fronts, thanks to 7th Ed. and the size of the old GW movement trays. 16 man on all three units would work, and would make up for the deficits I was looking at with getting it up to 4 ranks. The Dire Wolves actually get rank bonus in Ravening Hordes, so it probably wouldn't be a bad thing to have 12 so as to get +2 combat resolution for ranks.

I went Spears so they could have the extra rank of attacks, especially since a 4+ save makes them pretty survivable already. Remember, in the end you want the enemy to lost combat and hopefully you outnumber then when they do.

 Orlanth wrote:
As mentioned in my first reply ghouls have negative special rules in Ravening Hordes. They simply DO NOT WORK as MSU units, and at 700pts you cannot afford a proper size unit.
Read the entry on ghouls in Ravening Hordes to see why.

I see. The automatically break if they lose combat.

Well, that's lame.

It was a stopgap rule.

Later they just made ghouls undead.

I prefered to have living ghouls, but the rules never supported them properly. I can see the simplification of having one rule for the whole army but:

Vampires should not crumble, they should be subject to full morale rules as if alive. Vampires have a strong sense of self preservation being functional immortals and should run away if beaten.

Ghouls should also suffer morale penalties normally, but should be cheaper as a result. Nehek should also not work on ghouls but should work on vampires. Crypt Horros have vampire blood so should get Nehek but should get very little.

That's my take anyway.

They fixed quite a bit with the Ghouls when they made the 6th Edition Army Book, but I still couldn't find a good enough reason to run them. My brother thought about doing a Strigoi appendix list for a bit there, but he's soured on the notion of appendix lists lately.

Ghouls begin to get nasty in 7th and 8th. They were a staple of later VC armies. You could complete your core tax in 8th with a single horde of ghouls in five ranks. That made for a very nasty combat unit and character bunker with no dross and full freedom to buy support units as well as hitter units in Special.

Getting a 500pt core that is of itself able to fight was not easy. Zeds and skellies are there to get in the way. Ghouls outside of horde underperform.

You see, I guess it's all in the mentality. I don't view it as a Core Tax, I see it as how armies were realistically built. The US didn't fight through Europe in WW2 with 15 Divisions of Special Forces and an obligatory Brigade of standard infantry, why would any other force do the same?



Also, you illustrate yet another issue I had with 8th. It was still entirely plausible to min/max, you just had to do percentage math instead of simple counting of Regiments.

Woaah there.

I am a themed army gamer. However we are discussing the meta here, we have to be aware of it. Ghoul hordes work. I have one but I also have skeleton blocks.

Were I a minimaxer I would not add thirty points of command group to a sixty point goblin unit, but I do because it looks better.

Fair enough, but can you say that percentages fixed the min/max Core Tax thing?



Also, Ghoul Hordes work in the 8th Meta, not in 6th.

I find it kinda helped. Having a 25 % "Core Tax" in 8th would mean you had to invest a quarter of points in core units, while in 6th or 7th, you could pick the cheapest units and get away with that.

Example 2000 Points, you needed 3+ core in 6th if I remember correctly up to 4 elite and up to 2 rare slots. 1 Lord and 3 hero choices (or 4 heroes and no lord).

As an O&G player, I could have fielded 3 x 5 wolf riders for a total of roundabout 200 points. This is 300 points more for Characters, Elite and Rare than in 8th. Not that this would have been very beneficial for O&G , but for other armies it surely was.

But best would have really been to have rules where core units mattered, so you would set them up because they were important to win the game. Elite and rare units shouldn't be the backbone of the army. It's just unfit, like Tony said.

You could find some units in core in 8th that were valuable enough to to so. disadvantage: There were just twice as much of them that didn't do the job and therefore were doomed to be never seeing service any time.

And from where I sit, people choosing nothing but Specials and Rares would run their points out far too fast and be in the position to be outnumbered. You know you did it wrong when High or Dark Elves outnumber you, forget about something like Dwarfs where their basic Warriors are T4 with 3+ saves in hand to hand. There were armies where their Core was far too ineffective, and only exacerbated by the fact that armies like Empire had Core choices that outperformed damn near everyone else either stat wise or with those zonk Detachment rules.

I used to play large blocks, because I liked the looks of em, but got more and more frustrated when my opponents mopped the floor with my army. So I started to take only Wolf riders and Night goblins for core, plaster them with fanatics, added goblin chariots and spear chuckas, doom divers to the limit. I sometimes used a small unit of orcs as a character carrier for my lvl 4 mage.

That was fun once or twice. Well for me. My opponents didn't like that too much. Except if my whole army started panicking.


What was I supposed to say? Yeah if you're lucky and you have more bang for the buck core units, you will see plenty of em.
Dwarves are a good example. Or Bretons. Fantastic core units.
Orcs? Beastmen? Khemri? Not so much.

 Just Tony wrote:
Fair enough, but can you say that percentages fixed the min/max Core Tax thing?

Yes and no. I liked the idea of having fixed numbers of units in category, and how some unit types did not count towards mandatory core. It worked as a system, but was open to abuse from some army books. What GW shouks have done instead of having a return to % was a tailored army composition for each faction so an army capable of MSU core would either have its core requirement increased or have certain units count as 1/2 a core choice.

Percentages did in some way make it simpler from a games design point of view, but a lot of gamers were uncomfortable with the maths. Yes I know its very simple but some people cant hack working in percentages.

 Just Tony wrote:

Also, Ghoul Hordes work in the 8th Meta, not in 6th.

If you look above you will find that the discussion progressed because once one established that ghouls were worthless in Ravening Hordes and underpar in 6th, the next logical question is: what are they good for?

 Moscha wrote:
I find it kinda helped. Having a 25 % "Core Tax" in 8th would mean you had to invest a quarter of points in core units, while in 6th or 7th, you could pick the cheapest units and get away with that.

Example 2000 Points, you needed 3+ core in 6th if I remember correctly up to 4 elite and up to 2 rare slots. 1 Lord and 3 hero choices (or 4 heroes and no lord).

As an O&G player, I could have fielded 3 x 5 wolf riders for a total of roundabout 200 points. This is 300 points more for Characters, Elite and Rare than in 8th. Not that this would have been very beneficial for O&G , but for other armies it surely was.

I is swings and roundabouts, advantages each way. Percentages did limit MSU core as a tax submission, but they also allowed players to spam goblin heroes that are woefully underpriced for what they can do. It also made mockery of the fantasy genre when goblins were the heroic race but elves and men could not afford heroes. Frankly I always thought Order factions should get heroes on some sort of discount, because in the fluff it is the brave few heroes who play the biggest part in the job of stopping the dark hordes. The empire is built on its heroes Bretonnia even more so, but normally you can only afford a BSB and a general in the meta and both are standoff characters.
At least with Bretonnians the heroes were a powerhouse but that was because the faction was almost entirely lacking in big stuff and due to a quirk on the ranked formation rules which worked well with lance formation to allow character walls in knight units. It was broken but at leasdt it played to the fluff.

 Moscha wrote:

But best would have really been to have rules where core units mattered, so you would set them up because they were important to win the game. Elite and rare units shouldn't be the backbone of the army. It's just unfit, like Tony said.

This doesnt get fixed until 9th age and other legacy products. Its a running theme of fixes in 8.5 , 9th age 1.0 ff and others. GW were blind to this issue.

 Moscha wrote:

You could find some units in core in 8th that were valuable enough to to so. disadvantage: There were just twice as much of them that didn't do the job and therefore were doomed to be never seeing service any time.
......
What was I supposed to say? Yeah if you're lucky and you have more bang for the buck core units, you will see plenty of em.
Dwarves are a good example. Or Bretons. Fantastic core units.
Orcs? Beastmen? Khemri? Not so much.

Yep core tax is not an issue for some armies at all. Bretonnians are built around core, though again the Army book is old and sparse. Bretonnians had a lot of what they could do taken away to fit the grimdark peasants and knights theme characature. Older edition Bretonnians were more rounded. Foot knights, crossbowmen, different artillery. There was a lot GW should have placed in the Bretonnian army but didnt.
Had 8th lasted longer and Bretonnians got an army book we would have likely seen the return of these, plus Hippogryph knights and a new Grail Reliquae the size of a screaming bell. Bretonnians didnt sell because there was little to sell.

On making my 3K and 4K masterlist armes I found that Bretonnia had by far the largest core. I have 1600pts of just core in a 3K list and it doesnt feel in any way excessive. The next highest are orcs at 1400pts in up to 4k and many factions struggle to make the 25% without spamming junk, especially at larger points limits.

Dwarfs fill core effortlessly, but then dwarfs are so elite to the dwarf they run out of points effortlessly anyway, but the point being dwarf core infantry dont need special choice infantry to back them up. I include then mostly for variety.
Warriors of Chaos is also heavily focused around core, Lizardmen also, but they are sorely tempted away. I find orcs are also a good choice for a core heavy army. Lot of people play orcs for the wacky units or trolls, but overlook the benefit in just taking a metric crapton of basic orcs and goblins.

 Moscha wrote:

I used to play large blocks, because I liked the looks of em, but got more and more frustrated when my opponents mopped the floor with my army. So I started to take only Wolf riders and Night goblins for core, plaster them with fanatics, added goblin chariots and spear chuckas, doom divers to the limit. I sometimes used a small unit of orcs as a character carrier for my lvl 4 mage.

That was fun once or twice. Well for me. My opponents didn't like that too much. Except if my whole army started panicking.

Large blocks can work but people go to two extremes, they take blocks of 50 or they MSU. Take blocks of 30 orcs and invest in several. It is too many to just kill and they tag team nicely. My orcs dont bother with squigs and things. I will admit they do win and are the staples of the meta. But I threw away the meta for O&G partly for theme and partly because I didnt like the oddball units. While there is some whimsey in the setting WHFB was always a serious game played jovially. Squigs and night goblins had their place and I wont deny that, but it wasnt in my army. To me O&G meant a seething tide of unwashed brutes in number unedning. Chaff units? No thanks chaff are for dealing with excess opponents. You are the excess opponents, or at least I think you should be. Put aside all the funny stuf and bring blocks of cheap orcs with choppa and shield, shooty gobbos (I use regular, proper, gobbos not those annoying black robed cultists) and some boars. Nice and simple as Gork intended.
You know what, it works. People assume O&G means savage orc big'uns with shrunken head, trolls, mangler squigs, wolf chariots, doom divers and nigh goblins with all the trimmings. To me it means orcs, more orcs, yet more orcs, help! where have all these orcs come from, and oh Sigmar how do I stop all these orcs. Plus some goblins, spear chukkas, a rock lobber and from time to time a wyvern for fun.
And I love it.

 Just Tony wrote:
And from where I sit, people choosing nothing but Specials and Rares would run their points out far too fast and be in the position to be outnumbered. You know you did it wrong when High or Dark Elves outnumber you, forget about something like Dwarfs where their basic Warriors are T4 with 3+ saves in hand to hand. There were armies where their Core was far too ineffective, and only exacerbated by the fact that armies like Empire had Core choices that outperformed damn near everyone else either stat wise or with those zonk Detachment rules.

Ok. This can be true but only if you did it stupidly, or you were working one of those very special lists that specifically did just that.
Remember Tzeentch chariot lists, where you take 7 models in 2000pts in 6th, and table your opponent by turn 3.

If you just strip core to fuel special you can end up with a small army, but lets think about that. Who would benefit?
Empire certainly can dependant on edition. I cant on top of my head remember how Empire went in 6th, but in later editions there was a tendency to leverage points into special.

The real army that benefits most from Core Tax 'policy' are Vampire Counts. Zombies are ok if you have the magic to boost them, otherwise dont both. Skeletons are go big or go home, and if you dont s support thme by pouring the benefits of special choices into the skeletons they are go big and go home. Ghouls are very edition dependent.
However Grave Guard, always awesome, Black Knights, likewise. This get even more tipped into Vampire Counts as editions progress, by 8th, the pseicals selection was massively expanded with new very beautiful an very effective toys, core units got new sculpts, except the zeds, but nothing new on deployment.
One of the reasons I prefer 8th to 6th is as a collector, the Vampire Counts army is orders of magnitide more interesting and by 8th it was actually fairly well balanced. Some units were underpriced, Crypt Horrors especially, but the lists worked. Gone was unlimited zombie spam.
Meanwhile boring old 6th had the Varghulf, nice model but that was about it. 8th has the Mortis Engine, Vargheisst, Corpse Cart, Crypt Horrors and now with thenew nighhaunt models you can backfill in beautiful wraith sculptors, though in fairness you can use those in any edition since Warhammer lists began.

8th Vampire Counts was the shape of things to come for GW in terms of sculpt quality, and the first army for the new age in their model development. and we were blessed to get all that before they monkeyed around with the game settings. 6th Vampire Counts was a core tax army, 8th Vampire Counts is an army where you limited your core choices to as close to 25% as you can in order not only to make the army work better, but to make it look awesome on the tabletop.

Varghulf was 7th, actually. Same edition that had the Blood Knights.

In VC you ran your numbers out pretty quick if you load up on non-replenishable units. If memory serves, since I'm not looking at the book currently, Invocation only brought back Skellies, Zombies and potentially Wolves, but not too sure about the Wolves. May have been a Carstein power.


And as far as "boring" goes, the Von Carstein appendix list lets you run Empire Militia. ALL those appendix lists added needed flavor. Hell, the Lahmian Thrall was one of the more characterful things you could do, and would REALLY throw someone for a loop if they weren't expecting it.

Yes I remember the Alive! special rule.

This wasnt so much an issue of 6th ruleset but of having andy Chambers around to make subset army lists. I would like to see Army of Sylvania in 8th.

Technically I can by using end times rules which lets necromancy available with anything not Chaos ,and then self police. But that doesn't work because you then have to let the opponents use end times also.

Ehhhhhhhhhh, one of the MANY reasons that 6th is better than 8th

 Just Tony wrote:
Ehhhhhhhhhh, one of the MANY reasons that 6th is better than 8th

You have embraced the right to be woefully uninformed.