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Made in us
Implacable Skitarii





Having a disagreement over how this relic actually works.

Assume a space wolf character with no other applicable abilities has the relic.

What happens when he is charged by (random unit/no specific abilities)?

What happens when he is charged by a SW with Saga of warrior born (goes first)?

Basically, does charging grant an "ability" to go first that is negated by the armor. Also, does "fights as if it didn't have that ability" mean that it would then fight last, as another model would.
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter




There are effectively 'three' rounds of nominations.

1) Fights First - models that charged, models that have a 'fight first' ability

2) Fights Normally

3) Fights Last - Generally forced on a unit as a debuff

The armor of Russ effectively pushes an enemy unit 'one step down' that queue. Charging lets you get picked before non-chargers and the armor of Russ negates that. It would also negate Sage of the Warrior Born, or other abilities, even stacked with a charge. (As there's no fight first fight first.)
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Ulfhednar_42 wrote:
There are effectively 'three' rounds of nominations.

1) Fights First - models that charged, models that have a 'fight first' ability

2) Fights Normally

3) Fights Last - Generally forced on a unit as a debuff

The armor of Russ effectively pushes an enemy unit 'one step down' that queue. Charging lets you get picked before non-chargers and the armor of Russ negates that. It would also negate Sage of the Warrior Born, or other abilities, even stacked with a charge. (As there's no fight first fight first.)
This is pretty much the gist of it.
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Sweden

What about the Counter offensive stratagem with regards to this ability?
If the spacewolf had charged, And the opponent has a squad that is chosen to fight last, can that squad use the stratagem to interrupt the fight sequence to avoid to fight last?
   
Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut




 McRage wrote:
What about the Counter offensive stratagem with regards to this ability?
If the spacewolf had charged, And the opponent has a squad that is chosen to fight last, can that squad use the stratagem to interrupt the fight sequence to avoid to fight last?


No, it cannot be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have done so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/03 00:00:20


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Charging units doe not have an "ability to fight first in the fight phase", the Fight phase rules state that such units fight before any other units.

There is a huge difference between a unit ability and a core-rule.

Would you expect some ability called "tether", that restricts shooting from a unit that falls back with fly to also restrict the Super Heavy Walker rule?

Charging does not seem to be effected by armor of russ, such units will fight absolutely last(not as normal)

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Charging units doe not have an "ability to fight first in the fight phase", the Fight phase rules state that such units fight before any other units.

There is a huge difference between a unit ability and a core-rule.

Would you expect some ability called "tether", that restricts shooting from a unit that falls back with fly to also restrict the Super Heavy Walker rule?

Charging does not seem to be effected by armor of russ, such units will fight absolutely last(not as normal)


Well, the Fight phase rules specifically state, "All units that charged this turn fight first," so plainly, charging grants units that do so the ability to fight first.

Now, if use of the word "ability" was defined in the rules to refer only to the section of the same name on units' datasheets you would have a point, however it's not, and inferring it is the case is demonstrably wrong.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Yeah; that is not an ability, that is a core mechanic of the rules.

Charging in the previous charge phase is no more of an ability to fight first in the fight phase than firing a rapid fire 1 weapon at half range is ability to double the number of shots.

Armor of Russ is talking about unit abilities like banshee masks.

Let's look at the exact verbiage: "If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn't have that ability."

It is clearly talking about Abilities on the data sheet, as it is "an ability" and "that ability"; if it meant the capability, the fist instance would say "the ability".

The guidelines for choose a unit to fight with are not abilities, they are the order expressed by the Fight phase rules. A unit chosen by Armor of Russ that charged in the charge phase fights last.


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut





The armour of russ needs an FAQ to clarify things. The way it is written it counters chargers. All in all if they clarify that chargers count as having an ability to fight first then the whole point is lost because the attacker will always use the charger you picked to debuff with the armour to fight (and because its his turn he will activate first) and the relic is made complete garbage and it's no longer usable. How difficult was it to just say pick a unit within 1" in the fight phase, it fights last ...period...

PS: in the saga of warrior born it specifically mentions charging units but in the armour of russ it doesnt

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/18 06:44:58


 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






Northern85Star wrote:
 McRage wrote:
What about the Counter offensive stratagem with regards to this ability?
If the spacewolf had charged, And the opponent has a squad that is chosen to fight last, can that squad use the stratagem to interrupt the fight sequence to avoid to fight last?


No, it cannot be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have done so.


I don't think it's that cut and dry. The stratagem is pretty open about when it can be used and just lets your unit fight next. Stratagems interrupt the flow of things all the time. I don't see why this would be any different.

   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




This is just like Paroxism all over again.

TLDR;

Due to a technicality on how your eligibility to fight works. (i.e it doesn't care that you can "strike first" only that your either in 1" or charged)

Paroxism doesn't stop counter offensive, because the strat itself only requires you fulfill the requirements of getting into close combat.

This would also apply in this scenario
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yeah; that is not an ability, that is a core mechanic of the rules.

Charging in the previous charge phase is no more of an ability to fight first in the fight phase than firing a rapid fire 1 weapon at half range is ability to double the number of shots.

Armor of Russ is talking about unit abilities like banshee masks.

Let's look at the exact verbiage: "If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn't have that ability."

It is clearly talking about Abilities on the data sheet, as it is "an ability" and "that ability"; if it meant the capability, the fist instance would say "the ability".

The guidelines for choose a unit to fight with are not abilities, they are the order expressed by the Fight phase rules. A unit chosen by Armor of Russ that charged in the charge phase fights last.



Armies such as Emperor's Children have a 'legion trait' ability allowing them to always fight first in combat.

Had a game recently with a friend who plays wolves (I played EC) and I charged a unit & one character with the Armor with noise marines, Lucius and a sorcerer, he obv picked Lucius the target of the armor. The noise marines and Sorcerer would strike first b/c they charged - At this point, the initial charge fights are over and with the legion rule of fighting first the ability of the Armor of Russ is basically negated and because it was my phase, I can activate Lucius to attack.

If EC didn't have the fight first ability, Lucius would have had to wait until all the remaining space wolves made their attacks before he could strike. I would also believe that using the stratagem counter attack should be viable - you're paying 2 CP for the privilege of interrupting, but only if you are charged tho... don't think the strat is available if you are doing the charging?

The other point to make, if I had one unit of EC: marines, Lucius, doesn't matter, that was multi-charged with the Armor. All being equal, with the Legion trait, my opponent would select a unit to fight, resolve that, then I would activate a unit to fight, then my opponent. The Armor would nullify that sequence and all his units would strike first before my unit could strike.

Think the armor is very situational and almost useless if you are the one doing the charging as you would generally go first anyways - really only comes into play if you are locked in for a couple of rounds of combat

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 17:08:41


 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut





The armour's debuff is useless if your army has an army wide ability that makes you strike first. Not many armies have that.
If you dont have that ability the armour can make a difference , it is a very good relic, i never leave home without it.
Enemy melee units think it twice before charging a unit which is close to my Armour of Russ character

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 07:07:22


 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




mchammadad wrote:
This is just like Paroxism all over again.

TLDR;

Due to a technicality on how your eligibility to fight works. (i.e it doesn't care that you can "strike first" only that your either in 1" or charged)

Paroxism doesn't stop counter offensive, because the strat itself only requires you fulfill the requirements of getting into close combat.

This would also apply in this scenario



Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power, can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?
A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every other unit has done so.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Kitane wrote:
mchammadad wrote:
This is just like Paroxism all over again.

TLDR;

Due to a technicality on how your eligibility to fight works. (i.e it doesn't care that you can "strike first" only that your either in 1" or charged)

Paroxism doesn't stop counter offensive, because the strat itself only requires you fulfill the requirements of getting into close combat.

This would also apply in this scenario



Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power, can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?
A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every other unit has done so.


I so wish they would explicitly state what 'eligibility' means hah

Just like what end of turn means, and what it means to do something 'as if' it were a different phase.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Malfurious wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yeah; that is not an ability, that is a core mechanic of the rules.

Charging in the previous charge phase is no more of an ability to fight first in the fight phase than firing a rapid fire 1 weapon at half range is ability to double the number of shots.

Armor of Russ is talking about unit abilities like banshee masks.

Let's look at the exact verbiage: "If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn't have that ability."

It is clearly talking about Abilities on the data sheet, as it is "an ability" and "that ability"; if it meant the capability, the fist instance would say "the ability".

The guidelines for choose a unit to fight with are not abilities, they are the order expressed by the Fight phase rules. A unit chosen by Armor of Russ that charged in the charge phase fights last.



Armies such as Emperor's Children have a 'legion trait' ability allowing them to always fight first in combat.

Had a game recently with a friend who plays wolves (I played EC) and I charged a unit & one character with the Armor with noise marines, Lucius and a sorcerer, he obv picked Lucius the target of the armor. The noise marines and Sorcerer would strike first b/c they charged - At this point, the initial charge fights are over and with the legion rule of fighting first the ability of the Armor of Russ is basically negated and because it was my phase, I can activate Lucius to attack.

If EC didn't have the fight first ability, Lucius would have had to wait until all the remaining space wolves made their attacks before he could strike. I would also believe that using the stratagem counter attack should be viable - you're paying 2 CP for the privilege of interrupting, but only if you are charged tho... don't think the strat is available if you are doing the charging?

The other point to make, if I had one unit of EC: marines, Lucius, doesn't matter, that was multi-charged with the Armor. All being equal, with the Legion trait, my opponent would select a unit to fight, resolve that, then I would activate a unit to fight, then my opponent. The Armor would nullify that sequence and all his units would strike first before my unit could strike.

Think the armor is very situational and almost useless if you are the one doing the charging as you would generally go first anyways - really only comes into play if you are locked in for a couple of rounds of combat


"Legion Trait" or "Chapter Tactics" and all the similar are Abilities. They are listed on the data sheet under Abilities.

EC fight first is an Ability, and thus effected by Armor of Russ like any other unit with an Ability to fight first(fight as normal, but not last)

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
 
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