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Will Hayes was kind enough to reply to one of my periodic hair-tearing sessions on the ATFB group(this was in relation to the Leman Russ wreck on the terrain, I've removed most of the back & forth and just kept the IMO two most relevant bits of info):
So this is both good and bad from my perspective. Good in that we have some fairly solid confirmation of 8mm-ish Marines, so my measurements of the Titans should be about correct. Bad - or at least disappointing - in that they've chosen to go with a simple downscaling of existing 40K models where that's required(such as the Xiphon and Leman Russ wrecks on the FW terrain tiles) rather than establishing a consistent scale based on the "real" numbers for vehicles.
The TL; DR takeaway then is that Marine infantry(should we ever see it) and the Titans themselves will be pretty close to "truescale 6mm", but beyond that anything we see will have a lot of variance depending on how their 40K models are sized and proportioned.
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So, after Azreal pointed out how derp I was being lamenting not assembling my Warlord in an easily-measureable resting pose when there's an actual-size picture of one in that pose on the back of the sodding box( ), I did a wee bit of maths: based on the stated ex-weapons resting height of 32.76m for a Warlord, and the height to the top of the void generators on the image of ~121mm, AT18 is approximately 1:270 scale. In "miniature scale" terms, that means it's pretty much still "6mm scale"(a scale human at 1.8m tall is ~6.5mm tall in 1:270).
I cracked open the old IAs and ran up the sizes for what I believe are all the "main" Imperial chassis that got models over the years, so people can check which ones best fit the new scale(given how wobbly a concept scale was for the classic AT/SM/Epic games) or for sizing 3D printed stuff:
--For the sake of exactitude - some guy on FB was insisting the game is 8mm scale(ie, around 1:230) because of a throwaway intro blurb on a WC article and a tapdancing Warlord his friend photographed, so because I hate being wrong I went back and double-triple checked everything. Original version is spoilered below.
I was indeed wrong, the models aren't 1:270 exactly. They're 1:267 That makes my by-hand eyeball measurements of the Reaver and Warlord incorrect by a whopping 1mm and 1.5mm respectively.
But, admit your mistakes and all that - here's a revised table(changes are bolded, as before rounded to nearest 0.5mm):
If you want additional numbers for newer vehicles that didn't have classic Epic models, it's a simple matter of dividing the "real" measurement in millimetres by 270. Sadly finding the "real" measurements for some of the newer vehicles is a bit trickier since FW's IA books have been focusing more on rules and the "spec-plates" aren't as common in the Heresy series, but the above should provide enough of a baseline to get the newer stuff looking about right by comparing them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/01/15 20:43:49
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
I'm looking to get back into Epic, and this will help me purchase the various vehicles and infantry that will help me do this!
Just for clarity - those are the sizes the models "should" be, to act as a point of comparison, I've no idea what the actual sizes of the various Epic models are.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
I don't believe the 1:270 scale is correct. GW has said over and over that Adeptus Titanicus is 8mm scale, which, I believe, should be about 1:200 (putting average eye height of a man at 1.61 m). I've seen people use 1:225 (which assumes 1.8 m for average eye height if assuming that the scale is 8mm, which seems a bit high but still within acceptable). Interpreting 1:270 as 8mm would put the average eye height at 2.15 m.
To check scale, I think you need to go about it different. We know that 40k knights are 28mm scale. Are Adeptus Titanicus knights 3.5 times smaller? Then they are 8mm scale. 28 mm is accepted to be about 1:56, so that makes 8mm around 1:196.
I'm looking to get back into Epic, and this will help me purchase the various vehicles and infantry that will help me do this!
Just for clarity - those are the sizes the models "should" be, to act as a point of comparison, I've no idea what the actual sizes of the various Epic models are.
The Realm of Battle tiles will have a wrecked Leman Russ and a couple of crashed Xiphon Interceptors, which should tell you what size any future Epic models would be. Perhaps not scale, as there may still be some element of distortion, even if it's not to the same extent as originally.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RobertDD wrote: I don't believe the 1:270 scale is correct. GW has said over and over that Adeptus Titanicus is 8mm scale, which, I believe, should be about 1:200 (putting average eye height of a man at 1.61 m). I've seen people use 1:225 (which assumes 1.8 m for average eye height if assuming that the scale is 8mm, which seems a bit high but still within acceptable). Interpreting 1:270 as 8mm would put the average eye height at 2.15 m.
To check scale, I think you need to go about it different. We know that 40k knights are 28mm scale. Are Adeptus Titanicus knights 3.5 times smaller? Then they are 8mm scale. 28 mm is accepted to be about 1:56, so that makes 8mm around 1:196.
No, Yodhrin has measured the scale in the only correct way; "real" size of the thing divided by the size of the model. If the model is the size he says it is, then that's the scale it is. Simple arithmetic trumps whatever someone says.
As a cross-check …
The diagram on page 13 is 156.5mm tall, so that drawing is (32760/156.5) = 1:209 scale. The distance across the carapace is 120mm, or (120*209) = 25.119m. Measuring my miniature, it's 98mm across there; that makes it (25119/98) = 1:256
Doesn't quite match Yodhrin's figure, but I'm only using a ruler, and my measurements may be less accurate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 19:27:45
RobertDD wrote: I don't believe the 1:270 scale is correct. GW has said over and over that Adeptus Titanicus is 8mm scale, which, I believe, should be about 1:200 (putting average eye height of a man at 1.61 m). I've seen people use 1:225 (which assumes 1.8 m for average eye height if assuming that the scale is 8mm, which seems a bit high but still within acceptable). Interpreting 1:270 as 8mm would put the average eye height at 2.15 m.
To check scale, I think you need to go about it different. We know that 40k knights are 28mm scale. Are Adeptus Titanicus knights 3.5 times smaller? Then they are 8mm scale. 28 mm is accepted to be about 1:56, so that makes 8mm around 1:196.
No, Yodhrin has measured the scale in the only correct way; "real" size of the thing divided by the size of the model. If the model is the size he says it is, then that's the scale it is. Simple arithmetic trumps whatever someone says.
As a cross-check …
The diagram on page 13 is 156.5mm tall, so that drawing is (32760/156.5) = 1:209 scale. The distance across the carapace is 120mm, or (120*209) = 25.119m. Measuring my miniature, it's 98mm across there; that makes it (25119/98) = 1:256
Doesn't quite match Yodhrin's figure, but I'm only using a ruler, and my measurements may be less accurate.
There were a lot of assumptions made by the OP in measuring the scale of the entire range. For instance:
* The warlord picture on the box is 1:1 to the model
* The fluff measurement of 32.76m is correct
* The Warlord model is true scale, and not ever so slightly scaled down to fit on the sprues (or for whatever other reasons)
Then there is the issue of "heroic scale" which makes GW scales even harder to pin down. And the fact that we are trying to determine the entire line consists of 2 models doesn't help either. I thought it was a little too many assumptions to just ignore GW's own statements on this topic.
The thread is titled "Adeptus Titanicus 2018 - Scale Resource", and when I saw somebody post that they were confidently going to buy a bunch of old 6mm epic models, I thought it was prudent to point out that the scale of the game is confirmed by GW to be 8mm, not 6mm. Any 6 mm vehicles and marines will look small compared to future elements that are bound to come out (such as the Leman Russ you mentioned).
Of course, in the end, only the models themselves will make the definitive statement on scale, so when we actually get more (especially models that depict (near) real world things like humans and human sized vehicles) we will know more.
There were a lot of assumptions made by the OP in measuring the scale of the entire range. For instance:
* The warlord picture on the box is 1:1 to the model
Not an assumption. It is clearly stated and easily verified.
* The fluff measurement of 32.76m is correct
How can it not be? It’s stated in the official literature, and unlike the scale we’re discussing, cannot be contradicted by “reality”.
* The Warlord model is true scale, and not ever so slightly scaled down to fit on the sprues (or for whatever other reasons)
Meaningless. The scale of the Warlord is what it is. It’s “true scale” is the “real” size divided by model size, by definition.
Then there is the issue of "heroic scale" which makes GW scales even harder to pin down. And the fact that we are trying to determine the entire line consists of 2 models doesn't help either. I thought it was a little too many assumptions to just ignore GW's own statements on this topic.
The thread is titled "Adeptus Titanicus 2018 - Scale Resource", and when I saw somebody post that they were confidently going to buy a bunch of old 6mm epic models, I thought it was prudent to point out that the scale of the game is confirmed by GW to be 8mm, not 6mm. Any 6 mm vehicles and marines will look small compared to future elements that are bound to come out (such as the Leman Russ you mentioned).
Of course, in the end, only the models themselves will make the definitive statement on scale, so when we actually get more (especially models that depict (near) real world things like humans and human sized vehicles) we will know more.
So, with the release of the reaver, has the opinion on scale of the entire game changed? Or is the size of that model pretty much confirming your earlier measurements?
Confirmed as far as I'm concerned. In 1:270 a Reaver should be ~93mm to the top of the inside of the shoulder pad if posed in the same way as the image in the book, and that's the approximate measurement I get from mine(I say approximate because its just tac'd together and I'm measuring by eye with a ruler, rather than using a set of calipers on a fully assembled model, but it's close enough that I've no reason to suspect the Reaver is made to a different scale than the Warlord or that my initial hypothesis that the game is around 1:270 is wrong).
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
BrianDavion wrote: Infantry might make a fun base decoration at the least
I'll be using them for terrain pieces, assuming I can find something I like. Little battles going on over buildings or objectives, and the Titans just striding over it all giving zero feths. I'll maybe make sparing use of the Vanguard 6mm not-Skitarii on the Titan bases as Secutarii since carting around an infantry formation on your base is a little less "Mobile Posing Rock" when they're the force explicitly meant to be your backup.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
For the sake of exactitude - some guy on FB was insisting the game is 8mm scale(ie, around 1:230) because of a throwaway intro blurb on a WC article and a tapdancing Warlord his friend photographed, so because I hate being wrong I went back and double-triple checked everything.
I was indeed wrong, the models aren't 1:270 exactly. They're 1:267 That makes my by-hand eyeball measurements of the Reaver and Warlord incorrect by a whopping 1mm and 1.5mm respectively.
But, admit your mistakes and all that - here's a revised table(changes are bolded, as before rounded to nearest 0.5mm):
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
In support of Yodhrin's point, I measured some Epic models yesterday. For easy reference, I've repeated the calculated sizes Yodhrin estimated. As you can see, they're near-as-dammit.
Clockwise from top left:
Epic: Armageddon metal Land Raider [Land Raider(new style) - 10.3m long, ~38.5mm in-scale.]
Epic: Space Marine (1st ed.) metal Rhino [Rhino - 6.6m long, ~25mm in-scale.]
Epic: 40,000 metal Dreadnought [Dreadnought(washing machine) - 3.7m tall, ~14mm in-scale.]
Epic: Armageddon metal Rhino [Rhino - 6.6m long, ~25mm in-scale.]
Clockwise from top left:
Epic: 40,000 metal Hellhound [Chimera - 6.9m long, ~26mm in-scale.]
Epic: 40,000 metal Leman Russ measured from front of tracks [Leman Russ - 7.08m long, ~26.5mm in-scale.]
Forumware metal Leman Russ [Leman Russ - 7.08m long, ~26.5mm in-scale.]
Epic: 40,000 metal Leman Russ measured from front of spiky bits [Leman Russ - 7.08m long, ~26.5mm in-scale.]
...so in short, the Titans are now the 'correct' scale (i.e. in true proportion with) the old Epic models.
I think the confusion of 8mm is from a mention during an Forge World Open Day that a Space Marine would be 'around 8mm'; which is perfectly within the scope of Epic scale: a human at ~6mm, and a (bigger, modern) Space Marine being 8mm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/14 10:47:08
That's my take as well Apologist, unfortunately the person who wrote the intro blurb to that Community article which had the video of the designer talking about the models apparently made the same mistake so the "GW ARE THE LAW!" types have their "proof" it's 8mm.
Ah well, you can lead a horse to water and all that.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Well, the aircraft are larger, as is the Thunderhawk model. The new Epic Armageddon metals seem to have grown in response to the popularity of the Forge World resin stuff. The Titans themselves are larger than the originals but still far smaller than what is being produced in AT18. We don't have a previous reference for the Tau units because they've only ever been done by Forge World.
I'll dig through my old stuff and see if I can find anything.
The metal aircraft for Epic 40,000 and Epic Armageddon were undersized compared to other vehicles, whereas the resin ones Forge World made were more correctly sized. That's why they're bigger than their metal equivalents.
Admittedly some of the scaling was inconsistent (I have some FW epic Thunderbolts, marauders, Tau Barracudas and Eldar Nightwings and Phoenix, and they weren't all the same scale as each other, but they're all roughly the size they "should" be in comparison to the ground vehicles.
I'm keeping following this thread. Good to know that all measurements are consistent pointing towards 1:267.
I want to add some detailing to my bases, especially to invoke a better sense of scale. I would love to add some tanks or marines, but I don't want things to look weird and out of scale when the inevitable GW epic models are produced for this range (and, yes, I said inevitable, as I don't believe for a second when GW says they are not planning to expand this range to marines and tanks).
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Am I the only one who wished this was a thread comparing old Titan models to the new ones? Maybe with pictures of the old Epic models next to the new Titans as well? I fully expected model porn when I clicked in. Where are all the photos?!
I really wished this was that thread. Oh well.
Looks like a pretty handy resource though for scratch builders. I think it would be a lot of fun to try and sculpt some tanks and the like out of GS. Not sure how that would go for infantry though!
I would like to make some buildings for AT18.
What would be a more accurate height for each floor of a building: 8mm or 10mm?
I have read that a typical floor of a real building is about 10 feet in height.
If I understand this correctly, according to the measurements in this thread, a Warlord is a little taller than a 10 story building (if each floor is 10mm high).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 13:42:16
), I did a wee bit of maths: based on the stated ex-weapons resting height of 32.76m for a Warlord, and the height to the top of the void generators on the image of ~121mm, AT18 is approximately 1:270 scale. In "miniature scale" terms, that means it's pretty much still "6mm scale"(a scale human at 1.8m tall is ~6.5mm tall in 1:270).
That makes my by-hand eyeball measurements of the Reaver and Warlord incorrect by a whopping 1mm and 1.5mm respectively.
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0