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So we all know the Emperor considered himself somewhat of a mastermind. He liked to sit at the center of his little web and pull all of the strings, and have a plan for every eventuality. It was strongly implied the Emperor's plan was that once humanity existed in the webway that their psychic potential could then be safely developed without the interference from chaos, and the space marine legions and mutants like navigators would be "done away with". Obviously things didn't turn out like he wanted. Where did it all go wrong? Can we point to one thing and say "there is where the Emperor made his mistake" or is it a collection of things that went wrong that finally just pushed things over the edge?

My 2 cents:

Magnus accidentally destroying the webway project was when things started to get real and the Emperor first realized that he didn't have things under control. I forgot which book it was, but when demons started flowing into the palace after the webway project collapsed one of the custodes looked up at the Emperor and asked "what do we do now sir?" and the emperor just sat there with this look on his face that said "I am in completely over my head and have no idea what to do." It was the first time we have ever seen the Emperor scared or unsure of himself. He started making mistakes after that, or realizing that some things he did before were actually mistakes and not good moves. People started acting in ways he didn't predict, things started not turning out how he expected them, things started going sideways, spiraling out of control.

What do you all think?

w1zard wrote:
So we all know the Emperor considered himself somewhat of a mastermind. He liked to sit at the center of his little web and pull all of the strings, and have a plan for every eventuality. It was strongly implied the Emperor's plan was that once humanity existed in the webway that their psychic potential could then be safely developed without the interference from chaos, and the space marine legions and mutants like navigators would be "done away with". Obviously things didn't turn out like he wanted. Where did it all go wrong? Can we point to one thing and say "there is where the emperor made his mistake" or is it a collection of things that went wrong that finally just pushed things over the edge?

My 2 cents:

Magnus accidentally destroying the webway project was when things stated to get real and the Emperor first realized that he didn't have things under control. I forgot which book it was, but when demons started flowing into the palace after the webway project collapsed one of the custodes looked up at the Emperor and asked "what do we do now sir?" and the emperor just sat there with this look on his face that said "I am in completely over my head and have no idea what to do." It was the first time we have ever seen the Emperor scared or unsure of himself. He started making mistakes after that, or realizing that some things he did before were actually mistakes and not good moves. People started acting in ways he didn't predict, things started not turning out how he expected them, things started going sideways, spiraling out of control.

What do you all think?

Not true at all, he was always telling people how limited he was and how he wasn't a god. He always showed that he didn't know the future

"I have watched this moment many times and replayed our words a thousand times, but the universe has secrets it refuses to reveal until their appointed hour.’ ‘Even from you?’ ‘Even from me,’said the figure with a wry nod."


“I know some people think me omnipotent. But there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing” “You can't be both at the same time”

The Primarchs were a mistake. One should not make deals with the powers of Chaos period.

He knew future up to before he had to face Horus. After that his visions told him nothing which troubled him.

Probably the Magnus breaking webway. Heresy itself was planned. Emperor being locked on Earth holding daemons was likely not intended. Unless Emperor was planning of being locked in Golden Throne(which itself was his order) for becoming actual god which is one theory

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true at all, he was always telling people how limited he was and how he wasn't a god. He always showed that he didn't know the future...

Sure, but he was making long-term plans and certainly saw himself as the master of humanity, perhaps not as a god, but as the most intelligent and powerful of men.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true at all, he was always telling people how limited he was and how he wasn't a god. He always showed that he didn't know the future...

Sure, but he was making long-term plans and certainly saw himself as the master of humanity, perhaps not as a god, but as the most intelligent and powerful of men.

You'd have to quote his saying that. Its likely, as at the end of the day though he is the most intelligent and powerful man alive so he'd probably would have known he was but still he's never said or claimed he was. but the OP is trying to imply he is arrogant, which I don't think he is at all from the lore.

It fell apart because he was out of touch with humanity and reality. He dismissed the lives of the primarchs like Angron and Mortarion before he showed up which made them resent him. He treated Lorgar like trash after letting him spread his faith for a while before destroying his favourite city and psychically forcing his legion to kneel and berating him for spreading religion even though he should've did something about it before it got to that point. He made deals with the chaos gods and was surprised when they stole the primarchs. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples too.

The emperor was insanely powerful but he had no understanding of humanity then was surprised when all his plans fell apart because a bunch of humans basically decided "feth this guy I'll do what I want" because of his attitude. It's human nature to want to do exactly the opposite of what someone tells you to do.

The allfather was not prescient as he says in master of mankind he knows where he is and can see the goal he wants to reach but inbetween is an ever changing sea that hides many dangers from his sight.

Like any psyker he'd of had glimpses of possible futures but he did not see everything by any means.

I think the Emperor just put too much trust in the Primarchs. He gave them too much power and freedom.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think the Emperor just put too much trust in the Primarchs. He gave them too much power and freedom.

That was the point of the Primarchs, they were supposed to be generals that could act with autonomy, because the emperor couldn't be everywhere at once.

Sic semper tyrannis

The part where the Emperor decided he was the person to unite humanity.

 IronBrand wrote:
It fell apart because he was out of touch with humanity and reality. He dismissed the lives of the primarchs like Angron and Mortarion before he showed up which made them resent him. He treated Lorgar like trash after letting him spread his faith for a while before destroying his favourite city and psychically forcing his legion to kneel and berating him for spreading religion even though he should've did something about it before it got to that point. He made deals with the chaos gods and was surprised when they stole the primarchs. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples too.

The emperor was insanely powerful but he had no understanding of humanity then was surprised when all his plans fell apart because a bunch of humans basically decided "feth this guy I'll do what I want" because of his attitude. It's human nature to want to do exactly the opposite of what someone tells you to do.

And if he had did what you suggested how would he have got the marines to kill each other?-)

Oh and one point where it fell apart likely. He faced Horus but couldn't pull out his full strenght and vaporize Horus without getting wrecked. His own emotions failed him in the end.

The Emperor not trusting even the closest of his sons. If he had been straight with either Horus or Magnus, so many problems would have been avoided. That said another poor choice was not ventilating some of the Primarchs. Angron, Curze and possible Lorgar were going to be problems down the road even with out the heresy.

In the book Master of Mankind, the Emporer has his (I guess adoptive) father murdered and then in turn kills his uncle via a psychic heart attack for having killed him.

The Emperor recounts this to Ra one of his Custodes and states that the death of his uncle was the only murder with significance for him and the moment he realised Humanity needed to be ruled.

Perhaps big E should have asked the question 'Am I the propper person to rule?' instead of creating vast legions of creatures bred purely for war.

tneva82 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
It fell apart because he was out of touch with humanity and reality. He dismissed the lives of the primarchs like Angron and Mortarion before he showed up which made them resent him. He treated Lorgar like trash after letting him spread his faith for a while before destroying his favourite city and psychically forcing his legion to kneel and berating him for spreading religion even though he should've did something about it before it got to that point. He made deals with the chaos gods and was surprised when they stole the primarchs. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples too.

The emperor was insanely powerful but he had no understanding of humanity then was surprised when all his plans fell apart because a bunch of humans basically decided "feth this guy I'll do what I want" because of his attitude. It's human nature to want to do exactly the opposite of what someone tells you to do.

And if he had did what you suggested how would he have got the marines to kill each other?-)

Oh and one point where it fell apart likely. He faced Horus but couldn't pull out his full strenght and vaporize Horus without getting wrecked. His own emotions failed him in the end.

It likely wouldn't have solved all the problems but he shouldn't have just outright dismissed Angron and Mortarion's struggles before he found them. He really should've nipped the Lorgar problem in the bud much sooner too. Something like spending some time converting him to the Emperor's own philosophy and if he wouldn't then just outright killing him in the beginning would've been preferable. There still would've been problems with worlds already tainted by chaos but the heresy would've played out very different if he went out of his way a bit to make sure the primarchs don't hate him from the moment they meet him.

 IronBrand wrote:
It likely wouldn't have solved all the problems but he shouldn't have just outright dismissed Angron and Mortarion's struggles before he found them. He really should've nipped the Lorgar problem in the bud much sooner too. Something like spending some time converting him to the Emperor's own philosophy and if he wouldn't then just outright killing him in the beginning would've been preferable. There still would've been problems with worlds already tainted by chaos but the heresy would've played out very different if he went out of his way a bit to make sure the primarchs don't hate him from the moment they meet him.

Umm...And as I said. How would he have got the marines kill each other having filled their purpose? What alternative solution you propose to get roughly half the marines fight the other half?

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think the Emperor just put too much trust in the Primarchs. He gave them too much power and freedom.

That was the point of the Primarchs, they were supposed to be generals that could act with autonomy, because the emperor couldn't be everywhere at once.

Yeah and he was wrong obviously.

tneva82 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
It likely wouldn't have solved all the problems but he shouldn't have just outright dismissed Angron and Mortarion's struggles before he found them. He really should've nipped the Lorgar problem in the bud much sooner too. Something like spending some time converting him to the Emperor's own philosophy and if he wouldn't then just outright killing him in the beginning would've been preferable. There still would've been problems with worlds already tainted by chaos but the heresy would've played out very different if he went out of his way a bit to make sure the primarchs don't hate him from the moment they meet him.

Umm...And as I said. How would he have got the marines kill each other having filled their purpose? What alternative solution you propose to get roughly half the marines fight the other half?

He didn't need to. If they were loyal he could easily just kill off any he deemed necessary without any problems. Summon a legion and just kill them all psychically or make them all bow like he did the XVII legion then just have the custodes walk along beheading them all.

If anything sending them into a rage fighting each other just serves to empower Khorne.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
In the book Master of Mankind, the Emporer has his (I guess adoptive) father murdered and then in turn kills his uncle via a psychic heart attack for having killed him.

The Emperor recounts this to Ra one of his Custodes and states that the death of his uncle was the only murder with significance for him and the moment he realised Humanity needed to be ruled.

Perhaps big E should have asked the question 'Am I the propper person to rule?' instead of creating vast legions of creatures bred purely for war.

It was his father not his uncle and his uncle dying happend after he made the choice:

The boy’s momentary silence told Ra that he had guessed wrong. ‘We are not far removed from those
beginnings, Ra, either in distance or time. You could walk to the cradle of civilisation from here, where
men and women made the very first city. When I leave this village, that is where I will go. That journey is
coming soon. But no, that is not what I mean when I speak of beginnings.’
The boy turned the skull over in his hands, just as he had done in the hut before. ‘This is where I first
learned the truth behind our species. This very eve, as I held my father’s skull and considered how to
restore his features according to our burial rites. When I learned of his murder, it was a revelation into the
heart of all of mankind. This is a world that has no need of you yet, Ra. It has no need for Imperial
bodyguards, for it is a world that knows nothing of emperors, or warlords, or conquerors. And therefore it
knows nothing of unity. Nothing of law.’
‘You speak of leadership,’ the Custodian said.
‘Not quite. Every village already had leaders. Every family had patriarchs and matriarchs. I speak of
kings. Givers of law, rulers of cultures. Not merely those who give orders, but those whose decisions
keep a civilisation bound together. This was the night I realised that mankind must be ruled. It could not
be trusted to thrive without a master. It needed to be guided and shaped, bound by laws and set to follow
the course laid by its wisest minds.’

I don't know how to make those spoiler links.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
In the book Master of Mankind, the Emporer has his (I guess adoptive) father murdered and then in turn kills his uncle via a psychic heart attack for having killed him.

The Emperor recounts this to Ra one of his Custodes and states that the death of his uncle was the only murder with significance for him and the moment he realised Humanity needed to be ruled.

Perhaps big E should have asked the question 'Am I the propper person to rule?' instead of creating vast legions of creatures bred purely for war.

It was his father not his uncle:

The boy’s momentary silence told Ra that he had guessed wrong. ‘We are not far removed from those
beginnings, Ra, either in distance or time. You could walk to the cradle of civilisation from here, where
men and women made the very first city. When I leave this village, that is where I will go. That journey is
coming soon. But no, that is not what I mean when I speak of beginnings.’
The boy turned the skull over in his hands, just as he had done in the hut before. ‘This is where I first
learned the truth behind our species. This very eve, as I held my father’s skull and considered how to
restore his features according to our burial rites. When I learned of his murder, it was a revelation into the
heart of all of mankind. This is a world that has no need of you yet, Ra. It has no need for Imperial
bodyguards, for it is a world that knows nothing of emperors, or warlords, or conquerors. And therefore it
knows nothing of unity. Nothing of law.’
‘You speak of leadership,’ the Custodian said.
‘Not quite. Every village already had leaders. Every family had patriarchs and matriarchs. I speak of
kings. Givers of law, rulers of cultures. Not merely those who give orders, but those whose decisions
keep a civilisation bound together. This was the night I realised that mankind must be ruled. It could not
be trusted to thrive without a master. It needed to be guided and shaped, bound by laws and set to follow
the course laid by its wisest minds.’

I don't know how to make those spoiler links.

The guy you're quoting said the emperor's uncle killed the emperor's father then the emperor killed his uncle as retribution.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
In the book Master of Mankind, the Emporer has his (I guess adoptive) father murdered and then in turn kills his uncle via a psychic heart attack for having killed him.

The Emperor recounts this to Ra one of his Custodes and states that the death of his uncle was the only murder with significance for him and the moment he realised Humanity needed to be ruled.

Perhaps big E should have asked the question 'Am I the propper person to rule?' instead of creating vast legions of creatures bred purely for war.

It was his father not his uncle:

The boy’s momentary silence told Ra that he had guessed wrong. ‘We are not far removed from those
beginnings, Ra, either in distance or time. You could walk to the cradle of civilisation from here, where
men and women made the very first city. When I leave this village, that is where I will go. That journey is
coming soon. But no, that is not what I mean when I speak of beginnings.’
The boy turned the skull over in his hands, just as he had done in the hut before. ‘This is where I first
learned the truth behind our species. This very eve, as I held my father’s skull and considered how to
restore his features according to our burial rites. When I learned of his murder, it was a revelation into the
heart of all of mankind. This is a world that has no need of you yet, Ra. It has no need for Imperial
bodyguards, for it is a world that knows nothing of emperors, or warlords, or conquerors. And therefore it
knows nothing of unity. Nothing of law.’
‘You speak of leadership,’ the Custodian said.
‘Not quite. Every village already had leaders. Every family had patriarchs and matriarchs. I speak of
kings. Givers of law, rulers of cultures. Not merely those who give orders, but those whose decisions
keep a civilisation bound together. This was the night I realised that mankind must be ruled. It could not
be trusted to thrive without a master. It needed to be guided and shaped, bound by laws and set to follow
the course laid by its wisest minds.’

I don't know how to make those spoiler links.

The guy you're quoting said the emperor's uncle killed the emperor's father then the emperor killed his uncle as retribution.

Ah fair enough I miss read, just skimmed that comment my bad.

It all went wrong when the Primarchs were scattered. That caused the Primarchs to develop in ways the Emperor never intended and sowed the seeds that would eventually bloom into the Horus Heresy. The Emperor's plans depended on him being in control and once the Primarchs were removed from that control, they started to go off the rails to a greater or lesser degree.

Imagine Angron being raised without the Nails. Or Curze being carefully tutored on how to access and control his visions rather than being driven mad by them. I imagine the Emperor planned to raise the Primarchs much like the Custodes and I get the impression he was pretty frustrated with the damaged set of tools he eventually had to work with.

He told Ra that he even considered destroying the Primarchs when they were scattered but that would have risked the Great Crusade grinding to a halt without generals to lead it as He could not be everywhere at once.

Having said that, Magnus smashing the Webway project was the moment at which everything went irredeemably wrong. That kept the Emperor shackled to the Golden Throne so he could not go out and sort out the Heresy. More importantly, denying humanity control of the Webway pretty much shattered the Emperor's dream of creating a safe space for Humanity to evolve its psychic potential in safety. The Emperor believed that Humanity was damned to a slow painful descent into ignorance and extinction once the webway was lost. Based on the state of the Imperium by the 41st millennium, he was probably right.

 Karhedron wrote:
It all went wrong when the Primarchs were scattered. That caused the Primarchs to develop in ways the Emperor never intended and sowed the seeds that would eventually bloom into the Horus Heresy. The Emperor's plans depended on him being in control and once the Primarchs were removed from that control, they started to go off the rails to a greater or lesser degree.

Imagine Angron being raised without the Nails. Or Curze being carefully tutored on how to access and control his visions rather than being driven mad by them. I imagine the Emperor planned to raise the Primarchs much like the Custodes and I get the impression he was pretty frustrated with the damaged set of tools he eventually had to work with.

He told Ra that he even considered destroying the Primarchs when they were scattered but that would have risked the Great Crusade grinding to a halt without generals to lead it as He could not be everywhere at once.

Having said that, Magnus smashing the Webway project was the moment at which everything went irredeemably wrong. That kept the Emperor shackled to the Golden Throne so he could not go out and sort out the Heresy. More importantly, denying humanity control of the Webway pretty much shattered the Emperor's dream of creating a safe space for Humanity to evolve its psychic potential in safety. The Emperor believed that Humanity was damned to a slow painful descent into ignorance and extinction once the webway was lost. Based on the state of the Imperium by the 41st millennium, he was probably right.

I change my answer to this ^^^ forgot about that, the Primarchs would have done what they were intended if they haden't been scattered. I mean just look at Angron Lorgar and Cruze, they were meant for chaos after their experience on their homeworlds.

It all went wrong the moment he had his personality.
Everything else was a result of his gakky personality.
He acted poorly towards everyone, and practically each of the traitor primarchs is a direct result of E being a douche towards him.

I’m with those aging the emperor was flawed by hubris and overconfidence and was doomed to failure from the get go really. He underestimated chaos massively and a pretty twisted vision of leadership and uniting. If he wasn’t a absolutely head case he might have done better but tried to do less.

When the emperor didn't read Frankenstein.

The primarchs were more of less fit for their job.

The emperor wasn't very good at ruling tough.

Oh ye of little faith. What is 10,000 years to the God Emperor? Do you think we have seen even a fraction of His Divine Plan played out?

 Manchu wrote:
Oh ye of little faith. What is 10,000 years to the God Emperor? Do you think we have seen even a fraction of His Divine Plan played out?

pretty sure is divine plain went waaaaaaaaaay off the rails.

For my money, the best moment for avoiding the Heresy going totally pear-shaped would have been after Nikea. Magnus had revealed that he knew about the Webway. He was also in a serious funk. It would have been the perfect opportunity for the Emperor to take him back to Terra and show him the future.

This would have prevented him from later trashing the project. It would have kept the 1K Sons on side and prevented the losses the Wolves suffered in the early part of the Heresy. It would also have freed up the Emperor to confront Horus before he got his power-up on Molech.

Most importantly, it would have preserved the Webway project which was always the end-game of the whole Great Crusade.