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I have had a ridiculous amount of starter sets over the years. I love them. Opening the boxes is much like opening a door to a new universe to me, even after years of sitting in a closet. I like expanding starter armies too. I also love having a starter box that is big enough to hold everything once it is assembled as well as some new items I might add to it. There have been games over the years that really disappointed me when they didn't release a starter set, like Warmaster or EpicA. I really think that right out of the gate, having a starter or not can impact the interest in a game. I know not everyone cares about starter sets, especially when they do not contain armies they want to collect. I am also a big fan of getting started guides and so on.

That being said, I have found that even within starter sets, there are hits and misses.

I was going through an older set last night, Warhammer Fantasy - Battle of Skull Pass. I have to admit I am no real fan of Dwarves nor Goblins, but I have been collecting a lot of old WFB stuff lately and just had to have this set. Besides the two armies, there was some extra scenery that was included, just as a Goblin idol, a wall, a tied up Dragon Slayer, pony, and cart, and some markers. The getting started rules only shows these being used as scenery, and no additional rules or scenarios for them, which is really surprising since they take up a nice amount of plastic. Its almost like they were going to write up some scenarios to use them, like rescuing the Dragon Slayer, or capturing the pony cart, but decided not to. Its disappointing and baffling that they would do all this world and seemingly say screw it at the end.

And then, they follow it up with Warhammer Fantasy Island of Blood where they neglect to even include the stats for the models included in the set. How the heck does a gaming company in the business this long, make that mistake? Especially when it includes a getting started guide. Unreal. And a disappointment too, as the models in that set were no doubt the best ever in a WFB starter set.

Looking back at starter sets in the past, I have a fondness for the Warhammer 40k 3rd edition set. Like or hate the rules, at least the rulebook came with basic army lists. I love that. The model count is kind of weak, but I always like the terrain. The tough thing about terrain is that the plastic takes away from a higher model count. On the other hand, when I look at the more recent 40k sets, which uses the lid as a bunker, I just sigh. At the very least they could have included some carded ruined buildings like those released in 40k 2nd edition. Granted, I have a ton of terrain, but I don't think I should have to reach for that stuff when opening a new box.

One of the more impressive sets, even though I didn't like Tyranids, was 4th edition, which the crashed shuttle. Great scenario book, and for those that didn't know, they released a follow up to that called 'The Battle Rages On' that included new scenarios for other models. The shuttle was awesome, but a lot of parts didn't really block LOS. I think they should.

While 40k 6th (and 7th) came with some beautiful models, and a scenario guide like I want, some terrain would have put it over the top.

So that all being said, if I was designing a starter set, here is what I would like to see included:

* Getting started book in addition to the rulebook, which includes scenarios
* Variety of models, and even if the set is small, at least include a commander/hero model for each side
* Some terrain - and given the probability that there wouldn't be a lot included, make use of them in the scenarios.
* Main rulebook includes basic army lists, with the meat still in the army/codex books.
* Nice sturdy box, big enough to hold all of the assembled minis included in the set.

That's my dream for starter sets. I haven't found many that meet that criteria. Vor comes close. So does 40k 4th ed. Epic40k is an amazing box set. Actually, it might be the single one that fits all the criteria, it just has a rule system most do not like. But I have yet to see another more comprehensive starter set. Not only were a lot of models and terrain included, but army lists for everyone. Its an amazing box set. A ton of game in it.

So what do you guys think/ I imagine many of you would prefer higher model count over terrain. What are some of the best starter sets you remember, and some of the worst?

One thing you forgot is cost. Starter sets should be relatively cheap, especially as compared to other games a new player might buy.

You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

 Kriswall wrote:
One thing you forgot is cost. Starter sets should be relatively cheap, especially as compared to other games a new player might buy.

You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

Yeah, but Skull Pass had the little rulebook while AOS has a hardback now right? I bet a lot of the costs is in that. I guess one asking point is which sized rulebook would you prefer?

I think I would prefer the more complete rulebook, even if more expensive.

I want to pay as little as possible for the starter, so the less rulebook per miniature, the better.

Skull Pass was actually even cheaper than that; $45 at the time of release, as I remember (which I hope I do, that was the starter set I got!). Not bad at all for over a hundred models, some pretty evocative terrain, dice and whippy sticks, and a mini rulebook along with the quickstart guides. Sure, it didn't have specific army books, but I'd say that's more of a consequence of the business model than anything else.

The mini rulebook had all of the rules of the large one and even included quick and dirty stats without special rules or points for everything in the game at the time, so you could soooort of cobble together a game if you wanted to eyeball it. I think all it lacked compared to the big book was the pretty pictures of models (could live without those), extra scenarios (bit of a shame) and each faction's fluff (also a shame, but that was easy enough to look up.)

Honestly, it was a pretty damn good starter set. I ended up converting the tied-up dwarf into an improvised troll club

Best one I've ever bought or seen was the Flames of War 3rd edition "Open Fire!" (the one with the full rulebook)

- decent price
- two decent, game legal armies
- terrain (ok mostly cardboard)
- counters, dice
- full rules
- army lists for what you have in the box, and for some other stuff to use with them
- quick start guide

and from a company stand point actually pretty clever, at most you would want two copies, so its not a way to bulk up armies

Gangs of Rome has an amazing starter set that sells at £35/$45.

It includes a large, MDF terrain feature (Roman temple under construction) an LE miniature unique to the box set, rule book, 6 Fighter miniatures and all the cards/tokens you need to play. There are also a few scenarios that allow you to get started and which directly feature the LE figure and terrain included with the box set.

The terrain is important because it features prominently in game play, not just the specific temple which has a scenario built around it, but terrain in general is crucial to having a fun GoR experience.

The models are clean, well sculpted and easy to assemble. The rules are laid out in an easy to understand format and the rule book is very aesthetically appealing and fun to read.

For under $50, you get everything needed to play the few scenarios provided in the rule book and a fantastic launching off point for going deeper into the game.

I think without the terrain added to the starter set I may have passed on picking up Gangs of Rome entirely because I didn't have terrain themed for that time period. Having a building included took the edge off needing to source and build terrain for the game.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
One thing you forgot is cost. Starter sets should be relatively cheap, especially as compared to other games a new player might buy.

You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

Yeah, but Skull Pass had the little rulebook while AOS has a hardback now right? I bet a lot of the costs is in that. I guess one asking point is which sized rulebook would you prefer?

I think I would prefer the more complete rulebook, even if more expensive.

The goal of a starter set should be to get people hooked on the game. As such, it should be as cheap as possible to lower the barrier to entry. I actually think including the hardbound version of the rules, effectively forcing people to pay for it who might not otherwise want it, is a bad decision for a starter set. A starter set rulebook should have all the core rules, limited fluff and limited supplemental game content (missions, etc).

I'd say exactly the opposite, a full book with plenty of background is what you want to get new players interested and invested in the world (even if you put that all at the back behind a 'you don't need this bit to play' warning)

all a cut down rules only book has going for it is a slightly reduced cost (but not as much as you might think as you since you need to spend the extra on 2 different print runs, plus potential layout changes depending on how the main books set out),

It does, however tend to please existing players who want to break the starter for cheap stuff, and who will find a background free book useful as they know it all already, or just don't care

I'd argue the best starters I've purchased were the original Necromunda, and Warhammer Quest. Both providing plenty of stuff for a hell of a lot of gaming even before you expanded it with other add-ons.

I agree Skull Pass was excellent (I didn't own it).

I'm not a fan of the game (games?), but Warmahordes does a good job with its Faction specific starter boxes. For $40 you get a small format rule book, ruler, playmat, dice, unique to the starter leader and several additional models. Each person gets to pick the faction of their choice and run with it. As with any of these games, you'll want to buy more models for standard game sizes. These are STARTERS after all.

I'd be happy if GW scrapped the starter and converted the Start Collecting boxes into proper starter boxes. Each box should have one sprue with an HQ, a small Troops choice and another choice... all push fit. Maybe a small piece of scatter terrain on the sprue. Add in a some dice, a ruler, a small format rule book and a "mini codex" with a few pages of fluff and only the datasheets for the models in the box and you have a massive win on your hands. Drop the price a bit to somewhere in the $40-60 neighborhood and you have a big win.

I'm imagining something like...

Start Collecting Necrons! $50
Contents:
1x Lord, 5x Warriors, 3x Flayers
1x Necron Obelisk (scatter terrain/objective marker)
Necrons Mini-Codex
Warhammer 40k Mini-Rule Book
6 Dice & Plastic Ruler
Paper Playmat

That's TOTALLY worth the money for a new player. Existing players would buy it for the small rule book and alternate model sculpts. Play your cards right and these could also include Kill Team rules. Sky is the limit.

I loved the introductiory style of lord of the rings mines of moria starter set and battle for macragge starter set.

The only starter sets where I actually painted all the minis and played the very newbie friendly scenarios.

Nowadays the starter sets take waaaaay too long to paint and I usually lose steam half finished.

X-Wing 1st edition was perfect, great price point, a bit of fluff, instantly recognisable scenarios, full rule book but simple, a decent booster for further down the line or to play a bigger game, all templates, tool, dice etc, prepainted but easily worth over painting for hobby guys, available almost everywhere.
Most people I knew bought a couple and a millennium falcon and were hooked from there.

Shame about the arms race and stocking issues. I don't like what it's become these days but that's another discussion.

GW’s smaller sets (First Strike, Blood and Thunder) I think are really excellent. Part of the issue is that GW has indoctrinated us that we need these massive war bands to play a “full” game, instead of small war bands of ten figures or so - which would make the current offerings fantastic and the bigger sets full-blown armies in themselves.

However, as far rulebooks go, I’d much rather a small pamphlet-sized book than the overkill of a hardback included in a boxed set. It would be a waste to buy two full sets in such an example - I don’t want to have to pawn a book to feel like I get value out of a second set.

I'm pretty happy with the Kingdom Death : Monster starter set!

The Core contains so many minis! Amazing!

 Kriswall wrote:
One thing you forgot is cost. Starter sets should be relatively cheap, especially as compared to other games a new player might buy.

You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

In fairness, $160 is a lot closer for a videogame now counting season passes, loot boxes, and DLC.

That's not really relevant. We're talking about a starter set. Plenty of video games are free to play or have a cheap initial demo game. Whether you buy any extras is up to you.

I very much like the Infinity starter set I bought (Operation Red Veil), although I have yet to do anything with it other than assembling some of the models. It comes with 7 models per side (a small, but legal force for Infinity), with one figure on each side being a starter exclusive. It also includes rules, scenarios, and a decent amount of cardboard terrain. It gets even better when you realize that there is an expansion called Beyond Red Veil (which I went ahead and got along with the starter) that expands both forces to the standard tournament force size (I think). So if you buy both Red Veil and Beyond Red Veil, you get rules, terrain, scenarios, and tournament-size forces for both Yu Jing and Haqqislam. To me, this checks all the boxes in what a starter set should include. Obviously it is still a good idea to pick up the full rulebook, but as I am a new player this box was a must for me.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
That's not really relevant. We're talking about a starter set. Plenty of video games are free to play or have a cheap initial demo game. Whether you buy any extras is up to you.

What is relevant is that $60 game 20 years ago adjusted for inflation is a lot closer to 100-120 dollars., yet video games are still being sold for 60-70 because the industry is incredibly price point sensitive, and it's spawned other revenue streams like DLC and pay-to-win to make up for it. You get half a game (or less) for that 60 bucks these days (day one DLC is crippleware, after all).

Except that BFSP was 12 years ago.
Also LunarSol wasn't really making the same point as you.
Whilst it is an interesting point that is raised, it's still not relevant to a discussion about starter sets.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
One thing you forgot is cost. Starter sets should be relatively cheap, especially as compared to other games a new player might buy.

You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

Yeah, but Skull Pass had the little rulebook while AOS has a hardback now right? I bet a lot of the costs is in that. I guess one asking point is which sized rulebook would you prefer?

I think I would prefer the more complete rulebook, even if more expensive.

Well that's easy question. Skull pass. Much more gamer friendly.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
Except that BFSP was 12 years ago.
Also LunarSol wasn't really making the same point as you.
Whilst it is an interesting point that is raised, it's still not relevant to a discussion about starter sets.

Yeah... adjusted for inflation, $60 in 2006 works out to around $75 in 2018. I'd happily buy a starter set for $75 that included roughly the same content as Battle for Skull Pass. I'm less happy to pay $160. GW's price increases over time frequently outstrip inflation by a very wide margin.

The original starter sets for the LOTR were pretty great.

First one got you some Elves (swords and bows), Numenorians (sword'n'board), Goblins (bows, sword'n'board, spears), scenery, dice, complete rules for all the model line at that point and scenarios (such as the Flight to Buckleberry Ferry, Weathertop, Flight to the Ford, Moria, Amon Hen and the Battle of the Last Alliance) and, I think it also had red whippy sticks.

Second got you Riders of Rohan and Uruk Hai, some more scenery, dice, complete revised rulebook containing the rules for the complete model line and more scenarios from the film but no whippy sticks.

Return of the King followed the same format, so soldiers of Minas Tirith and Orcs were the models, more scenery, more dice, revised rulebook with complete rules and scenarios for events from the film but, again, no whippy sticks.

The Moria set they released later was also good, giving you everything you need to recreate one of the iconic fights of the first film and the Fellowship of course play a large role in other potential scenarios. The scenery is nice for Balin's tomb but is less versatile for use in other scenarios. And the rules are only for the models you get rather than for everything in the line as by that point they'd split the model rules into multiple army books. Don't know about the red whippy stick situation.

 Kriswall wrote:
You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

It always baffles me when people do nostalgic 1:1 price comparisons. Really? 60$ from back then is 79$ today, same as the Know No Fear starter. Sure, BfSP had more minis, but they were ugly, monopose, and tiny (so, pretty off-putting to new painters not used to microscopic details - it's why modern starter sets have bigger, easy to paint stuff). Moreover, when you stop being dazzled by amount of minis and compare unit-to-unit basis, KNF is pretty much identical. Except you need to paint 5 minis per unit, not 30, which again, is far better for starting players.

By the way, games don't cost 60$. Not anymore. Sure, people like to cling to that number like no one ever taught them the word "inflation", but that's why today it's 60$ game + 20$ season pass (or 80$ "special" edition containing day one "DLC", read, areas of game that were polished after it was completed to both reduce costs and in hopes people will buy full version instead of scrooging). That's why today games are also much more aggressively pushed in hopes of much bigger sales that were needed even a decade ago - because no amount of economic fallacies will change the fact 60$ is 1/4 less when the cost of game making didn't fell one bit, and even just 'good' sales can kill a game company...

Also, as a side digression - BfSP well demonstrates the bloat that killed Fantasy. If even "starter" needs mountains of models for small game, who is going to pick up and play armies that didn't have starter but still needed like 20+ boxes to make even medium sized army? And that's why few people bought in and GW had to reset the game and go to above smaller armies model to not have to axe the entire half of their range.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
That's not really relevant. We're talking about a starter set. Plenty of video games are free to play or have a cheap initial demo game. Whether you buy any extras is up to you.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Demos? In 2018? What? People stopped making them 15+ years ago, today, if you want a 'demo', you go and watch LP.

Moreover, these 'free to play' games? Let's show using 40K examples how that "free" really looks. If you're lucky, it's the 'cosmetic' F2P - read, you can only play with unpainted, monopose, ugly minis, when your opponents sport fully painted, golden demon grade armies with every single trooper sporting a hundred times better paint job than your HQ painted using old tube of paint someone gave you out of pity. Oh, and if that's team game, every single player doing support on your side ignores you in favour of guys with paid, painted minis, and you're the first to blame from your entire team if anything at all goes wrong. Gee, that sure sounds like a fun game, eh?

And that's if you're lucky. If that's 'grind' type of game, imagine 7th edition of 40K where 'free' players are only allowed to play 500 points of IG or Orks, while all paying customers have 2000 pts decurions of Tau and Eldar, plus the side faction supplements, plus pay-to-win Forge World models. But! For each week of playing your army, 7 days a week, 3 games a day minimum, the store gives you a single grot or conscript mini for "free" and wishes you good luck in continuing to get stomped by actual customers and thanks you for helping them feel good about their purchase. Oh, and the above point about painted / grey and ugly armies probably applies here as well, because why not?

My, my, that sounds even more fun for "free", eh?

Not all games contain day 1 DLC, which is not even always cut content on the disk. Video games require certification to sell which has to be done before the print run of the physical product as the build of the game that gets certified must be the same as the one on the physical disc that is being sold.

So once that certification comes back, which has to give enough time for manufacture and distribution of the game, the developers are not allowed to tinker with the version of the game on the disk. That is potentially months of development time to work on extra content.

As for games not having demos any more here are some big games with demos available on Steam (there'll be more but I just went to demos then most popular):

Final Fantasy 15
Middle Earth: Shadow of War
Pro Evo 2019
Hitman

Video games still have print copies? I think my last DVD drive died 10 years ago. I buy games with all DLC for 5€ on Steam a few years after release. I guess that's one aspect that miniatures can never match.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Video games still have print copies? I think my last DVD drive died 10 years ago. I buy games with all DLC for 5€ on Steam a few years after release. I guess that's one aspect that miniatures can never match.

Consoles still exist

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Video games still have print copies? I think my last DVD drive died 10 years ago. I buy games with all DLC for 5€ on Steam a few years after release. I guess that's one aspect that miniatures can never match.

Consoles still exist

I get a kick out of how people forget consoles and then compare exclusively to narrow time periods.

Atari 2600 games cost about $50-60 in 1977 dollars. That's ~$207-249 in today's dollars. Researching this, it blows my mind that my folks bought me these games.
NES games cost about $40-50 in 1985 dollars, ~$93-117 today.
SNES games cost about $50-60 in 1990 dollars, ~$96-115 today.
PS1 games cost about $40 in 1995 dollars, ~$66 today. (A sharp price drop because of the shift to CD tech.)
N64 games cost about $60in 1996 dollars, ~$96 today.
PS2 games cost about $50 in 2000 dollars, ~$73 today.
PS3 games cost about $60 in 2006 dollars, ~$75 today.
PS4 games cost about $60 in 2016 dollars, ~$63 today.

In other words, the retail price of console games has hovered between $40 to $60 per game for the past 40 years. The cost, adjusted for inflation, has dropped dramatically while the quality has sky rocketed... Pac-Man vs. Fallout 4? Even assuming that a game costs $80 today with the season pass... you're still looking at only a slight increase over recent consoles and a large decrease over older consoles.

With GW stuff, the quality has gone up, but not nearly as dramatically. The difference between a Rogue Trader Marine and a recent Primaris Marine may feel overwhelming, but it's not Pac-Man vs. Fallout 4 overwhelming. The cost, adjusted for inflation, has also gone up.

$45, guys.

Battle for Skull Pass was $45.

And those goblin models were pretty good! Limited poses aren't as much of an issue if you're doing a horde army; just pick up another box or two of night goblins and sprinkle them into units with your starter-box ladz. It looked great!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Video games still have print copies? I think my last DVD drive died 10 years ago. I buy games with all DLC for 5€ on Steam a few years after release. I guess that's one aspect that miniatures can never match.

True enough! However, most PvP video games don't have much competition several years after release, and those that do have die-hard maxed out players who will stomp you repeatedly. So your selection is curtailed, though the market of non-PvP games is huge enough it doesn't matter unless you really like PvP games.

Also, good graphics cards aren't cheap either. This and the cost of consoles should be considered when talking about barriers to entry WRT video games, not just he cost of games themselves.