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I was considering how to effect the Guard, without altering points, and I may have discovered an answer. What about:

1. Guard squads now have a ballistic skill of 5+, 4+ if no movement in last turn. Vet squads keep their 3+
2. Guard squads now need to have a commissar for every 3 squads. So you are forcing a point increase, but thematically it makes sense.
3. Scions get no changes, they cost a ton as is.
4. Every squad of Conscripts now requires a commissar, no matter the size.


This forces point increases, while maintaining lore and effectiveness. And btw, I rock guard, so these changes effect me. But still, I would be okay with these.

Thoughts?

I think most people would prefer a CP change, and a quick glance at top lists supports the theory that that's where to look.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was considering how to effect the Guard, without altering points, and I may have discovered an answer. What about:

1. Guard squads now have a ballistic skill of 5+, 4+ if no movement in last turn. Vet squads keep their 3+
2. Guard squads now need to have a commissar for every 3 squads. So you are forcing a point increase, but thematically it makes sense.
3. Scions get no changes, they cost a ton as is.
4. Every squad of Conscripts now requires a commissar, no matter the size.


This forces point increases, while maintaining lore and effectiveness. And btw, I rock guard, so these changes effect me. But still, I would be okay with these.

Thoughts?

yay another proposal that does not fix the main problem and instead makes mono guard unplayable.

1. No, When a cabalite at 6 ppm has a near marine profile with a better gun and equally good traits no.
2. No, rule of three would apply, additionally commisars are overpriced for what they do since the nerf.
3. after the nerf they are fine as you said.
4. how about we lower the point cost for conscripts then back down?

Simply put you have not solved the problem that guard has to stand in for CP for all other imperial armies, the main offender beeing the fact that kurovs aquilla exists, aswell as the fact that CP is giftable to other factions in other detachments.
Stop blaming regular guardsmen for the faults of soup which is now a staple since GW makes more money of it.

Commissars don't make sense for every Regiment. If anything, the Regiments being shown with them(Cadians and Scions notably) are going against their own fluff.

It's really hard to evaluate the power of Imperial Guard in a vacuum because, more often than not, they're not operating in a vacuum. They operate with 1 or 2 other codexes operating alongside an Imperial Guard detachment of CP farming. It would make more sense to deal with the ally system in some way, then see where things settle after that.

With that said, though, I think IG are one of the strongest mono factions anyways. But a limitation on allying in to shore up their weaknesses might be effective regardless.

Do we also need to nerf BA and IK? They were in almost all those lists, too.

Wouldnt it be better to just bring back the old platoon style organisation?

1 troop choice =

1 commander (have to bring jnr officers back)
2+ infantry squads

If you wanted to up the cost more you could add in a HWT as part of the requirement as well.

Bharring wrote:
Do we also need to nerf BA and IK? They were in almost all those lists, too.

Actually yes. BA Captain Smashfester should be nerfed (and other parts of the codex buffed) and IK need some nerfs too.

Could just nerf Command Points.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to just bring back the old platoon style organisation?

1 troop choice =

1 commander (have to bring jnr officers back)
2+ infantry squads

If you wanted to up the cost more you could add in a HWT as part of the requirement as well.

No. Just no. The issue right now is that you get bodies and fill out choices easily for CP generation. Letting you get more bodies for less slots is not a good idea.

Also, we literally have an Elites slot called "Platoon Commander".

Bharring wrote:
Do we also need to nerf BA and IK? They were in almost all those lists, too.

Yes - duh. Castellan is not balanced. Nether is captain smash. 130 points and 1 shots anything that isn't a sanctuary ROI shield knight.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to just bring back the old platoon style organisation?

1 troop choice =

1 commander (have to bring jnr officers back)
2+ infantry squads

If you wanted to up the cost more you could add in a HWT as part of the requirement as well.

Well it would certainly improve the 18 points per CP that Guard are currently paying to be more in line with other non CP abusive factions.
Tau pay minimum 27 points per CP and are a CP intensive faction
Knights pay 177 points per CP

Everyone knows the fix - CP can only be spent by the army (not faction), thereby making guard CP allies moot. We all know this is the problem. Pure guard armies are not winning tournaments. It's getting silly that every week people suggest a fix that doesn't actually address the core problem.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was considering how to effect the Guard, without altering points, and I may have discovered an answer. What about:

1. Guard squads now have a ballistic skill of 5+, 4+ if no movement in last turn. Vet squads keep their 3+
2. Guard squads now need to have a commissar for every 3 squads. So you are forcing a point increase, but thematically it makes sense.
3. Scions get no changes, they cost a ton as is.
4. Every squad of Conscripts now requires a commissar, no matter the size.


This forces point increases, while maintaining lore and effectiveness. And btw, I rock guard, so these changes effect me. But still, I would be okay with these.

Thoughts?

Why not just add a clause that every guard player must own a Revolver? Each time he wants to play guard, he has to load at least one bullet into it and play Russian Roulette at the beginning of each of his turns. I'm sure that will fix guard completely.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was considering how to effect the Guard, without altering points, and I may have discovered an answer. What about:

1. Guard squads now have a ballistic skill of 5+, 4+ if no movement in last turn. Vet squads keep their 3+
2. Guard squads now need to have a commissar for every 3 squads. So you are forcing a point increase, but thematically it makes sense.
3. Scions get no changes, they cost a ton as is.
4. Every squad of Conscripts now requires a commissar, no matter the size.


This forces point increases, while maintaining lore and effectiveness. And btw, I rock guard, so these changes effect me. But still, I would be okay with these.

Thoughts?

1. No thanks. They already wound most things on a 5+ so their damage output is low as is. Perhaps if you made it for all armies that if you move you take a -1 hit penalty but otherwise poor change. The fact that negative modifiers already exist then basically the guardsmen just become obsec holders.
2. A 16pt comissar? Sure but its not necessarily thematic.
3.
4. What does this address? Conscripts are non viable as it is now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yes - duh. Castellan is not balanced. Nether is captain smash. 130 points and 1 shots anything that isn't a sanctuary ROI shield knight.

Castellan will get a points increase and perhaps a reduction in stratagem power or increase CP cost (talking Raven here).

Smash Captains may get a limit of 1 per detachment ala Tau Commanders. Otherwise I could see a small points bump but the fact they can one shot something will still be around.

 Smirrors wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was considering how to effect the Guard, without altering points, and I may have discovered an answer. What about:

1. Guard squads now have a ballistic skill of 5+, 4+ if no movement in last turn. Vet squads keep their 3+
2. Guard squads now need to have a commissar for every 3 squads. So you are forcing a point increase, but thematically it makes sense.
3. Scions get no changes, they cost a ton as is.
4. Every squad of Conscripts now requires a commissar, no matter the size.


This forces point increases, while maintaining lore and effectiveness. And btw, I rock guard, so these changes effect me. But still, I would be okay with these.

Thoughts?

1. No thanks. They already wound most things on a 5+ so their damage output is low as is. Perhaps if you made it for all armies that if you move you take a -1 hit penalty but otherwise poor change. The fact that negative modifiers already exist then basically the guardsmen just become obsec holders.
2. A 16pt comissar? Sure but its not necessarily thematic.
3.
4. What does this address? Conscripts are non viable as it is now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yes - duh. Castellan is not balanced. Nether is captain smash. 130 points and 1 shots anything that isn't a sanctuary ROI shield knight.

Castellan will get a points increase and perhaps a reduction in stratagem power or increase CP cost (talking Raven here).

Smash Captains may get a limit of 1 per detachment ala Tau Commanders. Otherwise I could see a small points bump but the fact they can one shot something will still be around.

1 per list might be the best solution the can make - though that is still pretty problematic. Sending a big unit out on it's own shouldn't mean it gets 1 shot by a 130 point suicide CC unit. Probably a nerf to the 3d6 charge strat is what needs to happen. Can't use it on characters would be the best solution I think. That and or remove the ignore over watch ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 per list might be the best solution the can make - though that is still pretty problematic. Sending a big unit out on it's own shouldn't mean it gets 1 shot by a 130 point suicide CC unit. Probably a nerf to the 3d6 charge strat is what needs to happen. Can't use it on characters would be the best solution I think. That and or remove the ignore over watch ability.

The 130 point suicide unit used up 7CP and a relic in the process.

By nerf Descent of Angels you mean remove it? It already costs 2CP, you want to increase it to 3CP?

I dont think you can take everything that is good about the BA without giving something back to the codex. Poor BA players, especially those using the mono-codex list, get shafted.

Id be good with capping units like a space marine captain to one per detachment. Going by the fluff it would be extra ordinary circumstances to have two company captains fighting back to back.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Id be good with capping units like a space marine captain to one per detachment. Going by the fluff it would be extra ordinary circumstances to have two company captains fighting back to back.

Yes this is the most practical along, with a points adjustment, for FAQ/CA.

I don't believe they use FAQ/CA to really change stratagems and relics details.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 per list might be the best solution the can make - though that is still pretty problematic. Sending a big unit out on it's own shouldn't mean it gets 1 shot by a 130 point suicide CC unit. Probably a nerf to the 3d6 charge strat is what needs to happen. Can't use it on characters would be the best solution I think. That and or remove the ignore over watch ability.

The 130 point suicide unit used up 7CP and a relic in the process.

By nerf Descent of Angels you mean remove it? It already costs 2CP, you want to increase it to 3CP?

I dont think you can take everything that is good about the BA without giving something back to the codex. Poor BA players, especially those using the mono-codex list, get shafted.

This thread is about IG but I will reply and that's the end of it.

Space marines in general need massive buffs to their PA units. Captains however become really good when they can basically automatically charge...ignore overwatch and wound Imperial knights on 2's with a base str 4 model with a ton of bonus attacks. Captains aren't supposed to be suicide units anyways - they are ment to be close support duelists that can give some damage and take some with their invo. They aren't supposed to average 30 wounds to super heavies. What should be happening here is a big unit of SG or DC should be doing that damage - but they cost 2-3 times as much. So I'm not talking about a nerf to BA. I'm talking about a buff to a lot of their units and restricting their autocharge mechanics to units that...cant fight twice...can't ignore overwatch...and can be easily targeted after they destroy whatever they charged.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to just bring back the old platoon style organisation?

1 troop choice =

1 commander (have to bring jnr officers back)
2+ infantry squads

If you wanted to up the cost more you could add in a HWT as part of the requirement as well.

No. Just no. The issue right now is that you get bodies and fill out choices easily for CP generation. Letting you get more bodies for less slots is not a good idea.

Also, we literally have an Elites slot called "Platoon Commander".

Well the idea is that it brings guard slot costing more in line with everyone else. Guard battalion as it stands now is 180pts. Force them to have moree to fill out the slot and it jump up to 300 plus platoon commander pts so getting closer to 400. Less desirable for cp batteries.

Im in complete agreement though for the cp issue. It needs to be limited to the detachment that made it.

Or we could just acknowledge that being able to mix-n-match wildly different armies and enjoy army-wide benefits among them is silly, and start putting some restrictions on that and how CP can be spent.

Broadly speaking, most of the broken stuff in the game, and what all the top end lists are building around, is the unintended synergy that allies allows. Fix that and we'll have a low fewer problems, and a lot fewer reasons to go mucking about with adding silly rules like dynamically changing BS for guardsmen.

Sory, perhaps I should have included my intent.

By altering the rules to what constitutes a "minimum battalion" for guard, we intrinsically limit their usefulness as CP batteries. Instead of the two commanders, and thee squads of guard, you are not forced to take a few elites.

I wanted to suggest altering the Battalion force for Guard. Basically, everyone else gets two HW/three troops. Make a guard battalion a "Regiment" or something, and make the minimum 2 HQ, 3 Troops, 3 Elites, and at least one Transport.

A patrol should be about 250-500 points, a BN about 750-1000, and a BG should be around 1500-2000pts. For guard. All I am saying is make Guard requirements for the force orgs more tan other armies. Discourage useless CP armies.

I play guard and I think forcing us to take extra units is a good thing. Almost literally 75% of the entire codex never sees anything but the store shelf. Who can honestly say the last time they saw Hydras, Manticores, Wyverns, Salamander scout tanks, Chimeras, Tauroxs, Valkeries, Vultures, or Vendettas? You don't because it's easier to just go Infantry.

I might also mention the lowly Commissar. The practical poster child of the AM, now relegated to the trash heap because it's usefulness is outweighed by other unit's cheese.

AM batallions have a base cost issue - you fix it by increasing the cost of their units - which have been proven mathematically to be far superior to all other infantry. Company commanders are also undercosted. They double the lasgun fire of 2 units for currently half their cost...as well as having 5++ saves and multiple wounds themselves and filling hq requirement.

I think that addressing the CP/soup synergy problem would be far more effective than simple point changes. Point changes are a very broad method to change things and can't really target a single interaction which is causing the problem. I would like to see something to limit taking Guard for CP in other armies. Guard should be taken for their numbers, armour and cost, not to give your elite troops more buffs that have nothing to do with Guardsmen.

Give everyone equal CP - eliminate use for IG CP battery.

Repoint Strats to account for everyone having the same CP. Make good strats for Knights cost 5 CP, or something like that.

Get rid of recovering CP - eliminate use for IG Commanders.


If we got rid of those things, people would not spend points on IG for the CP, and instead buy things to smash with.

Huzzah!

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was considering how to effect the Guard, without altering points, and I may have discovered an answer. What about:

1. Guard squads now have a ballistic skill of 5+, 4+ if no movement in last turn. Vet squads keep their 3+
2. Guard squads now need to have a commissar for every 3 squads. So you are forcing a point increase, but thematically it makes sense.
3. Scions get no changes, they cost a ton as is.
4. Every squad of Conscripts now requires a commissar, no matter the size.


This forces point increases, while maintaining lore and effectiveness. And btw, I rock guard, so these changes effect me. But still, I would be okay with these.

Thoughts?

Those are terrible fixes.
1. Infantry just need to be 45 points for the squad. This is a price increase to make them less broke for the price, but not so much so that we go after them like some of you guys did witch hunts on Eldar last edition.
2. Vets get moved back to the Troop section.
3. Make Commanders 35 points. Also another price change without trying to destroy the army.

Honestly, I'd rather see Company Commanders stay at 30, but with Refractors being an upgrade.

 Trickstick wrote:
I think that addressing the CP/soup synergy problem would be far more effective than simple point changes. Point changes are a very broad method to change things and can't really target a single interaction which is causing the problem. I would like to see something to limit taking Guard for CP in other armies. Guard should be taken for their numbers, armour and cost, not to give your elite troops more buffs that have nothing to do with Guardsmen.

guardsmen are undercosted at 4PPM. They cost the exact same as conscripts which are BS 5+. It is clear - the infantryman is too cheap. They cost the same as cultists which have 6+ saves and are literally spammed.. They cost the same as termigants which have 6+ saves and worse guns. It is obvious that the infantry man should be at least 5 points. That is the best place to start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Give everyone equal CP - eliminate use for IG CP battery.

Repoint Strats to account for everyone having the same CP. Make good strats for Knights cost 5 CP, or something like that.

Get rid of recovering CP - eliminate use for IG Commanders.


If we got rid of those things, people would not spend points on IG for the CP, and instead buy things to smash with.

Huzzah!

Now were talking.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to just bring back the old platoon style organisation?

1 troop choice =

1 commander (have to bring jnr officers back)
2+ infantry squads

If you wanted to up the cost more you could add in a HWT as part of the requirement as well.

Yeah it would be a great one.

increasing the amount required would be a start.

But overall all the codexes need to be updated frequently enough that all codexes at least can play some resemblance of an army not the imperial soup we see nowadays.

Imperial guard have the issue of not having what they need to be by themselves effectively. (which is why the current vechile system just kind sucks currently for most land slogging armies)