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I have seen a lot of debate on this subject and both sides make some good points. I will cut the the point, is the problem Soup or is it Guard?

Soup, or more broadly the ally system, is the main problem with current meta lists. Until that is fixed, it'll be hard to pinpoint whether or not individual factions are overpowered when they stand alone.

"Soup" is fine, the problem is Guard making Imperial Soup be 2 Guard Battalions + Blood Angels

Why can't it be both?
As realy that is the truth, soup is op, guard is op combine them and you get the supper OP cheese that rocks all the top spots.

Soup has lots of benifits and no downsides, however all the suggestions so far kill all allies or no battalion detachments

Guard pay the least amount of points per CP of any army, like almost a third if what a number of other imperial factions pay per CP.
Guard CP is indefensible at this point.

Imperium soups are not a problem if you leave AM out of the equation.
Chaos soup is balanced
Eldar soup is mostly balanced except for Drukhari undercosted hotness
Tyranid soup is nice to play and very skill intensive.

Everyone saying that Soup is the problem (and not AM infantry that has been present since the release of 8TH) is foolish, especially in the context of a FACTION BASED game like 8TH

It depends how you are looking at things.
For example, when looking at Imperium Soup, the problem isn’t soup or Guard. The problem currently lies with the CP regeneration aspect of the game imo.

+5 CP isn’t a massive game changer. +5 CP and the ability to roll a load of dice each time you use a stratagem to regain CP, is a game changer.

However, it is a completely different if you look at Chaos or Aeldari soup. They don’t have the same level of CP regeneration or starting CP numbers, but, they are consistently doing well, which implies there is potentially a more fundamental issue with some of their combinations, rather than a “one cause fits all” kind of thing.

neither and both the problem is that guard are so cheap they make a fatastic battery for CPs. this only is componded by warlord traits and relics that make CP regen a pretty awesome thing.

Both will need to be fixed, IMO.

Take away the ability for allies to use CP generated by out-of-faction detachments, and you'll basically eliminate Knights and Custodes, while leaving Captain Smash Detachments because they are their own battalion and can bring a cp regen engine of their own.

What will fill the void there besides obviously more captain smash detachments is more Guard. I don't think it will mean less Guard and more other factions we don't presently see, though it will probably mean more of factions we do already see, i.e. Drukhari.

ye, problem is the soup, 40k should be mono codex only in matched whit a slight backup of a another codex.
freely mixing armys cross codex only belongs to open and narrative play.

that is why aos is better in this aspect.
a very, limited ally system for every subfaction in matched and less then 1/4 of the total points can be used on allys.

It is neither. Without powerful units to use the CP on something IG is no where near as strong, at the same time powerful stratagems and powerful units do not work so well without the CP farms.

The problems IMO is the core rules and the huge gap GW left between the really good codex like lets say eldar, those that are cherry picked for specific units like BAs and those books that are just plain aweful.

No amount IG is going to make a GK army good. And the BA codex isn't suddenly top tier just because 1/3 of people playing run some BA scouts and captins.

What I also fear is that, if GW ends up having a knee jerk reaction and nerfs the imperial Soup stuff, it will only buff the Inari and eldar even more.

Karol wrote:
It is neither. Without powerful units to use the CP on something IG is no where near as strong, at the same time powerful stratagems and powerful units do not work so well without the CP farms.

The problems IMO is the core rules and the huge gap GW left between the really good codex like lets say eldar, those that are cherry picked for specific units like BAs and those books that are just plain aweful.

No amount IG is going to make a GK army good. And the BA codex isn't suddenly top tier just because 1/3 of people playing run some BA scouts and captins.

What I also fear is that, if GW ends up having a knee jerk reaction and nerfs the imperial Soup stuff, it will only buff the Inari and eldar even more.

I'm confused how you can see IG as fine and Eldar as unbalanced. Unless you mean Eldar and Drukhari and you're just kind of combining them?

We are seeing a lot less of the Craftworld eldar units these days than we used to, they're pretty much down to "bring a psyker to Doom something for your Drukhari buddies to Disintegrate, then bring some min ranger squads and some Shining Spears."

At this point, Eldar is fairly cherry-picked.

Take away allies and you'll replace a Raven Castellan with a tooled-up Catachan Shadowsword and most of those Guard lists won't change. They'll be a bit less powerful overall but we have seen pure guard lists or close to succeeding (remember if the "CP can only be used on your own faction" proposal gets implemented that doesn't affect Captain Smash detachments because they actually do bring most of their own CP, so we'll still see those tacked onto Guard most likely)

Drukhari and Guard are the two obvious factions that are well ahead of the pack if we take out the ability to slap a CP IV into the arm of the hyperelite factions. Marines need across-the-board buffs and have for a while, that much is pretty clear to everyone outside of Nottingham at this point, frankly I'm amazed theyve waited this long but I gotta think it's going to be a lot of what comes out of CA. orks seem like they'll be getting at least enough tricks to get them on the level of the decent xenos factions, I'm guessing theyll be on par with nids/tau/mono-CWE and in better shape than Necrons/Mono-harlies. But in the current environment if you can't be slapped onto Drukhari/Guard, you ain't showing up.

Which do you find more fun? Play that one.

If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

Can't it be both?

I mean, soup is a problem. We see this in Chaos and Eldar lists too. Really ugly "best picks from each book" lists, powered by some crazy core (usually cheap bodies). Knights and Smashcaptains are a bit more fair when they have a more limited CP supply (although as shown elsewhere, mono-BA don't do terrible for CP generation). DE wouldn't be so insulting if adding Doom weren't so cheap. Maggy and Morty showing up to support some cultists so gosh darn always is dumb - what part of Morty says "Always Warptime All The Time"?.

But IG also seems to be too good too. 4ppm for a basic trooper with no real weakness (nor strength, to be fair, beyond their cheap points cost)? Some Grinding Advance? IG is a good book as is.

Without Soup, IG wouldn't be top dog. It'd be up there - moreso than today because (1) it competes with Soup today, and (2) why would a powergamer not soup when it's stronger - but it wouldn't be so pants-on-head.

Without IG, Soup wouldn't be all it's cracked up to be. Maggy and Morty warptiming around fronted by cultists isn't the be-all-end-all. Eldar soup functions, but not so much better than mono-DE currently - not nearly to the degree of the current IG-based Soups.

So it's hard to say which one is really the problem. It's both. Fix one, and the other becomes less of an issue.

Or fix something that impacts both: IG has some nasty CP regen tricks that are part of why IG is too good, but is only particularly nasty in Soup. So that seems like the ideal candidate.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

If guard are 100% the problem as you suggest, why aren't we seeing mono-guard lists dominating every single tournament? Why then would they need to bring allies? I conceded that guard CP generation is an issue. Any guard player worth his salt could care less if you eliminate the CP generation. We have barely any stratagems worth using. CP only becomes an issue when fed to elite armies with powerful stratagems.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

If guard are 100% the problem as you suggest, why aren't we seeing mono-guard lists dominating every single tournament? Why then would they need to bring allies? I conceded that guard CP generation is an issue. Any guard player worth his salt could care less if you eliminate the CP generation. We have barely any stratagems worth using. CP only becomes an issue when fed to elite armies with powerful stratagems.

Because the only downside of AM lists is quality CQC, and that is filled by Smashcaptain egregiously.
That AM/BA/IK list has no downsides as of now, but if they nerf few units and CP regen it would rely on the first 2 turns to win the game else it will be losing staying power turn after turn

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

There were TWO lists featuring AM/BA/IK that didn't have "minimums". They were both Catachan(shock! gasp!) Brigades and went over by 1 and 2 Infantry Squads.


Know what you're talking about or don't talk about it.

Well, are the minimums enough to fulfill the battlefield role they're used for?

The most OP units can simply be spammed and win games (Scatter Bikes and DAVU and Grav Bikers and Tac Obsec Spam from previous editions). But some OP units you take enough of to fulfill the need, then need to bring other units for an optimum list. This is actually a *good* thing for the game.

So you need your linemen. And you need your heavy hitters. If the minimums of Guardsmen do what linemen should do, for too cheap, then you wouldn't frequently see more than the mimimums. Because you've covered that base.

The weaknesses of Guardsmen are on the other side of the spectrum: the non-linemen roles.

Guardsmen are certainly not in the Big Guns category that things like Devs and Preds and Reapers are. Guard does have some excellent big guns of their own - Heavy Weapons squads can help, but the real artillery and armor in the IG dex are where it finds it's big guns. It also still has Plasma Scions, although not as useful currently.

Guardsmen are also not great (or even passible) at being a true CC threat. Sure, Straken really makes them scary in CC for what they are - enough to trivialize things like Marines, who are supposed to be able to bully them. But nothing like the hard threats that you get from Custodes, BA Smashcaptains, or IK. So what does IG have for that? ***crickets***.

So if you were to play mono-IG, even if Guardsmen are undercosted, the ideal list would have only so many of them. How many of them vs "the big stuff" you have would be very debateable. But if that number comes down to "about the minimum" or less, then you shouldn't see Guardsmen spammed, even if OP.

So Guardsmen not being spammed doesn't *necessarily* mean they're not OP.

On the other hand, "fixing soup" has a lot more implications for mono-IG, as well. What might not be good today - because some variety of Soup kicks it's ass - might be the OP crap of tomorrow. However, to do mono-IG, you have no real options for a hard CC threat to shore up your doods/countercharge/do threat removal. IG does that with the Big Guns. Which is a different playstyle. As that playstyle isn't what's placing, it certainly isn't currently autowin.

TLR version: not spamming Guardsmen doesn't mean they're not OP, but OP Guardsmen wouldn't necessarily mean mono-Guard are OP.

 Kanluwen wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

There were TWO lists featuring AM/BA/IK that didn't have "minimums". They were both Catachan(shock! gasp!) Brigades and went over by 1 and 2 Infantry Squads.


Know what you're talking about or don't talk about it.

The brigades itself implies that AM is not minimum.
The Loyal 32 ARE minimum, not 800+ points of AM

Neither, but if I had to pick one of the two it would be soup because it interacts poorly with other badly thought out aspects of the game (CP generation, faction internal balance, etc).

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

There were TWO lists featuring AM/BA/IK that didn't have "minimums". They were both Catachan(shock! gasp!) Brigades and went over by 1 and 2 Infantry Squads.


Know what you're talking about or don't talk about it.

The brigades itself implies that AM is not minimum.
The Loyal 32 ARE minimum, not 800+ points of AM

That's not how this works You claimed that "almost nobody run the minimum Battalion". There weren't Battalions flooded with Troops, the Battalions were bare minimums.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

Most of nova ig lists did bring minimum infantry squads. One had 1, other whopping 2. Gee mighty broken squads that are taken in minimums...

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
If guard was the issue, we would be seeing mono-guard in the top 10 of every tournament running nothing but 2000pts of infantry squads. That isn't happening. In fact, very few mono-guard lists are making it in the top 5-10 spots in most tournaments. It is almost always bare minimum guard detachments for CP generation mixed with elite imperial soup. Further examining guard, players using regiments that are not Cadian or Catachan are performing even worse. Does IG's CP generation need to be FAQ'd? Yes. Do guardsmen need to be bumped up to 5ppm? Maybe. Are there units that definitely need to be buffed in the IG codex? Absolutely. Example: While Chimeras durability increased this edition, it increased in points, suffers -1BS on the move, lost rear firing ports (massive massive nerf), lost command vehicle, & lost amphibious rule. Chimeras were regarded as overpriced in 7th edition yet increased in cost in 8th while losing most of their utility, especially with the changes to how embarking/disembarking works now.

Flawed/Kanluwen style logic. Guards comprised at least half points of AM/BA/IK lists of NOVA tournament lists and almost nobody run the minimum Battalion to spam the heck of Knights (most only brought a single Castellan with all the things he needed to excel).
The second part of your post would make sense if we were discussing the shortcomings of AM book but that's not the case since every Codex (yes even Drukhari!) has underpowered units.

If guard are 100% the problem as you suggest, why aren't we seeing mono-guard lists dominating every single tournament? Why then would they need to bring allies? I conceded that guard CP generation is an issue. Any guard player worth his salt could care less if you eliminate the CP generation. We have barely any stratagems worth using. CP only becomes an issue when fed to elite armies with powerful stratagems.

Because the only downside of AM lists is quality CQC, and that is filled by Smashcaptain egregiously.
That AM/BA/IK list has no downsides as of now, but if they nerf few units and CP regen it would rely on the first 2 turns to win the game else it will be losing staying power turn after turn

I'm totally fine with them FAQing CP generation. I do think its an issue and quite honestly I don't think many guard players would disagree. I do take issue with nerfing "other units" however. Guard as a standalone codex, are not dominating tournaments. They perform well when used by veteran players, but are well balanced. It is what all codices should strive to be. I do think the issue of infantry squads increasing to 5ppm is one worth having, provided consideration is also given to units within the codex that are under performing. Those truly interested in balance would want the same. From the outside it may seem like IG players are trying to downplay criticism towards our codex, but you must understand that our codex has already seen conscript nerf x2, commissar nerf, plasma gun nerf, melta gun nerf, astropath nerf, primaris psycher nerf, valhallan nerf, manticore nerf, ratling nerf, wyvern nerf, Half a dozen other nerfs I cannot be bothered to list.

Not sure if I'm understanding the logic on here. Filling detachments for the CPs and CP regen is one of the main reasons for the IG detachment (as well as just filling the field I would suppose). If a min IG detachment accomplishes this, and it's so prevalent, then how is that not proving their over-representation amongst factions?

Voted Soup since it is the bigger problem. note that guard are still a problem.

Both soup and IG are problems in the current meta.

The poll is useless because it does not offer the option to choose both, therefore there's no point voting.

The two are intertwined. As with most mechanics GW has put out over the years allies, guard, cp and stratagems arn't inherently a problem. The problem is that GW does not write a tight rule set and players trying to win games will always look for a way to push the limit of the rules to get a leg up. Thankfully GW is being a bit more active than they used to be in fixing problems but this is almost a chicken and egg issue. No matter what rule set GW puts out, people will likely find a way to pull stupid things like guard CP battery.

The biggest problem is Guard's insane CP regeneration. Being able to buy 5 CPs for 200ish points is not a huge issue, being able to buy infinite CP for 200ish points is.

I think Soup is the bigger issue - not least because we're seeing it even in factions that are completely isolated from Imperial Guard.

The central issue is that there's simply no downside to Souping - it's all benefits at no cost.

I would suggest tackling the issue of Soup first and then nerfing individual units as required.

Ideally, we would get some tournaments to ban Soup altogether and then use that data to get an idea of which units are a problem even in mono-factions. Then we could compare this to data from Soup armies and see whether it is the individual components that need to be changed or whether it is only the interaction between them that is causing issues.



In terms of addressing the CP generation of Soup armies, I'll post what I suggested elsewhere:

Fractured Command
If your army includes detachments from different subfactions (e.g. Imperial Guard and Space Marines), then you must declare one of those subfactions to be your Primary one. Once you do, the following restrictions apply:
- Your Warlord must be selected from your Primary subfaction.
- Detachments from other subfactions cannot generate Command Points (though any Auxiliary detachments will still reduce your Command Point total).
- Command Points may not be spent on Stratagems from other subfactions.

So, let's say a player wants to have an Imperial Knights detachment, a Blood Angels detachment and an Imperial Guard detachment. They have to choose one of those subfactions as their Primary one.
- If they choose Imperial Guard, then they have to select an Imperial Guard model as their Warlord. In addition, their Imperial Knight and Blood Angel detachments won't generate any CPs and nor will they be able to spend CPs on any Imperial Knight or Blood Angel stratagems.
- If they choose Blood Angels, then they have to select a Blood Angels model as their Warlord. In addition, their Imperial Knight and Imperial Guard detachments won't generate any CPs and nor will they be able to spend CPs on any Imperial Knight or Imperial Knight stratagems.
etc.