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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





TL;DR - What if the reinforcement points for a Summoned Unit were refunded if the unit dies?



Hey folks,

Was reading another rules question about summoning, and it made me think how sad it is that we don't see more summoning going on. I think we also mostly realize why Summoning is now "bad" in matched play, but here's a refresher:

#1 - Reinforcement Points: Unlike in 7th, and thank god for this, summoning costs you Reinforcement Points. That means you tend to treat a summoned unit the same way you would treat a unit just arriving from reserves, except with all the extra summoning baggage attached.
#2 - Too long to use: In 7th, units summoned as they did all their other stuff, meaning they didn't give up too much in order to summon. Now, units that are summoning are sacrificing their move, and potentially taking damage, so that a summoned unit can come out near them. Summoning is also restricted to Characters, whereas before any psychic unit could summon.
#3 - Too random: You pretty much can't summon the Greater Daemons, so you can only reliably summon lesser daemons and/or Herald-type units.

Combined, these three things exacerbate another underlying problem;
#4 - Daemons aren't different enough from each other to make the "pick the best tool for the job" worthwhile. Yes, there are lots of differences between different kinds of daemons, but at the end of the day, none of them are functionally different enough to really matter. How well a unit of Khorne Bloodletters kills something is very similar to how well a unit of equal power of Slaanesh Daemonettes will kill something. And if you're just summoning in basic troops... well... that really won't cut it, ever.


This means that summoning, as it currently stands, is really being used for two reasons. First, replenishing a key unit that, for some reason, you can't take multiples of; If your list require Epidemus for his tally, and Epidemus dies, if you kept your list smaller by his same amount of points it will be possible to summon him back again.
Secondly, creating units where they are needed during your opponent's own turn; This doesn't involve summoning, but would be things like Poxwalkers getting more models as units near them die, or Horrors splitting into new models so that you can actually advance forward while dying.



So, here's the idea. What if, when a unit dies, if that unit contained models purchased with reinforcement points, those reinforcement points get refunded? Effectively, if you kill a summoned unit, it is possible to summon something worth the equivalent points (such as the same unit) back again? An additional rule would be similar to flyers; if you only have units composed entirely of models purchased by reinforcement points remaining on the battlefield, you lose the game. What would this do?

#1 - Makes backfield summoning a threat; If you have a character that keeps summoning a unit, it can be hard to kill that character, since they'll likely be out of Line of Sight. You'll have to find a way to kill the character before killing the unit they keep re-summoning. Due to the rules on Summoning, you can also try to cause such characters to die on their own from Mortal Wounds caused by summoning.
#2 - Makes forward summoning a threat; If you have a character summon a unit within 9 inches of an enemy, then charge them with the summoned unit, and that unit dies during your opponent's turn, the character might still be around to bring that unit in to smash again.
#3 - Makes summoned support units harder to take out; If your army functions on an aura-giving unit, summoning that unit will mean that if it dies, you can just try and bring it back.
#4 - Makes all-in summoning useful, but risky: You are more vulnerable to alpha-strikes that can take you out before you summon stuff, and the less you start with on the table, the more likely someone can table you at any point in the game.


What do you all think?

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




hmm.

I can really see this being exploited heavily.

I mean you could summon the same lot of troop units for infinity, what's to stop someone from leaving enough points for 5 squads of 10 troops? that's only 350 points of troops but those troops can be re summoned infinite amount of times. By two summons that is 700 points.

If the units are dropping like flies then a third re summons would give you a whopping 1050 points worth of units. In a 1500 point game that is almost doubling your army by turn 4-5

The mortal wounds part for characters isn't that hard to negate. You can easily spam 4-5 wound characters (especially heralds of the dark gods, they can be spammed till the cows come home) Also, what's stopping someone from summoning a character, and then using that character to mass summon (chaos daemon Strat FTW). You get the points back anyway and then just summon another grunt. Or better yet, have that grunt summon another grunt first and then kill it off via summoning and then rinse and repeat. (welcome back to infinite re-enforcing units of 7th edition)

The idea sounds nice, but you must realize how bonkers it would be to do this. With having a potentially unlimited supply of troops, heralds and summoning goons. This would just be banana's.

There was a reason why people did not fight against summoning list in 7th, not because of the sheer size of the army you were facing, but rather because you didn't get past the second turn before 4 hours were up

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 07:12:51


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Termagants. Termagants forever.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






No. The whole point of reinforcement points is that you don't get to have more points than your opponent. Refunding the point cost of summoned models lets you have more points than your opponent, breaking the rule. So no, you don't get regenerating summoning points unless I get points back to summon more guardsmen every time they die.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





mchammadad wrote:hmm.

I can really see this being exploited heavily.

I mean you could summon the same lot of troop units for infinity, what's to stop someone from leaving enough points for 5 squads of 10 troops? that's only 350 points of troops but those troops can be re summoned infinite amount of times. By two summons that is 700 points.

If the units are dropping like flies then a third re summons would give you a whopping 1050 points worth of units. In a 1500 point game that is almost doubling your army by turn 4-5

The mortal wounds part for characters isn't that hard to negate. You can easily spam 4-5 wound characters (especially heralds of the dark gods, they can be spammed till the cows come home) Also, what's stopping someone from summoning a character, and then using that character to mass summon (chaos daemon Strat FTW). You get the points back anyway and then just summon another grunt. Or better yet, have that grunt summon another grunt first and then kill it off via summoning and then rinse and repeat. (welcome back to infinite re-enforcing units of 7th edition)

The idea sounds nice, but you must realize how bonkers it would be to do this. With having a potentially unlimited supply of troops, heralds and summoning goons. This would just be banana's.

There was a reason why people did not fight against summoning list in 7th, not because of the sheer size of the army you were facing, but rather because you didn't get past the second turn before 4 hours were up


I appreciate your comments the most so far, since it seems you put the most thought into it. You are absolutely correct that it could be heavily exploited, but there's a few caveats:
#1 - Summoned Troops don't get Objective Secured (I'm pretty sure), as they aren't in your list to gain the relevant rule at the start of the game. It's not a lot of points, but if you're spending these on troops, you're really hoping that just having some bodies will do you something helpful.
#2 - The unit has to be entirely wiped out to get the reinforcement points back. Your opponent will know this before attacking the unit. If a summoned unit is getting re-summoned 3 times during a battle, then your opponent is really bad at picking their targets.
#3 - You're right that you can summon a unit to do the summoning for you, but then you're wasting a turn, as summoned units cannot themselves summon more units until the next turn. Summoning already carries extra risk if you don't go first, and having to wait through 2 of your opponent's turns before you even really get into the summoning will hurt, a lot.
#4 - If you lose your non-summoned units, you count as tabled, just as with Flyers.
#5 - Can't do the real crazy summoning, as it's not unbounded. Once you've used up the reinforcement points, if that's the only reason you brought some backfield characters, now those units might be considered wasted points. If you go 50/50 on reinforcements and summoners, you'll only ever really be fighting the battle with 50% of your strength, even if that 50% might last longer.

It absolutely could be bonkers, but my instinct tells me that the regular scenario will be that you will only get to resummon 50% of your forces during a game one time. Given the other weaknesses of summoning (Mortal Wounds, not able to completely control what you summon for the big mean stuff), I think this could be acceptable.

Lance845 wrote:Termagants. Termagants forever.


Yes. Yes please. Of course, you can also just shoot the big one squirting them out

Peregrine wrote:No. The whole point of reinforcement points is that you don't get to have more points than your opponent. Refunding the point cost of summoned models lets you have more points than your opponent, breaking the rule. So no, you don't get regenerating summoning points unless I get points back to summon more guardsmen every time they die.


If you set aside Reinforcement Points to use the "send in the next wave!" stratagem, you'll be able to actually use that stratagem over and over... but the unit still has to arrive back on the table each time, and then THAT unit has to be killed again to get their reinforcement points back. In essence, this rule would actually make the "send in the next wave" stratagem actually function, while still costing reinforcement points to use. I bet you most people would actually still consider it unplayable.



Thanks everyone for their comments! I think I might throw this idea at my group and ask for a game. Don't have a lot of daemons in our collections, but this might drive us to using some.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 12:34:53


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I think a better solution would be to keep Summoning as-is, but allow the unit summoned to be able to move after being summoned.
Similar to disembarking rules, it should look like this:
Before the summoning Character moves, it can attempt to summon a unit. Rolling 2d6=PL of the unit you want to summon, the unit is placed within 3" of the Character and outside of 12" of an enemy unit.
The unit can move and act normally for the rest of the turn.
The Character can also move afterwards.

That would INSTANTLY make summoning a worthwhile option. Rarely being able to summon a GD would actually be balanced here, rather than a waste.
It would also make summoning a very scary prospect, but you can mitigate around it if you have a unit close enough to the Chaos Character (as there would be no way for the unit to be 12" away from you AND within 3" of the Character)

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 13:30:59


   
 
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