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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So played a game against nids and the player set up 4 nodes in his deployment zone and told me that they blocked deep strikes. it seemed abit overpowered so I looked it up and it talks about it being basically a marker. so the question is do the nodes count as enemy models and thus block deep strikes from setting up with in 9 inches?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Synnister0815 wrote:
So played a game against nids and the player set up 4 nodes in his deployment zone and told me that they blocked deep strikes. it seemed abit overpowered so I looked it up and it talks about it being basically a marker. so the question is do the nodes count as enemy models and thus block deep strikes from setting up with in 9 inches?
An infestation node isn't a "model" ruleswise any more than an objective marker is. He needs to show that the nodes ARE a model, you don't have to show they aren't. You can't prove a negative.

So in short, they aren't an enemy model for the purposes of the various rules that allow a unit to be set up more than a certain distance from enemy models.

That being said, it's not explicitly stated (i.e. it doesn't literally say "These are not models") so it can only be inferred.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 13:22:34


 
   
Made in es
Swift Swooping Hawk





Synnister0815 wrote:
So played a game against nids and the player set up 4 nodes in his deployment zone and told me that they blocked deep strikes. it seemed abit overpowered so I looked it up and it talks about it being basically a marker. so the question is do the nodes count as enemy models and thus block deep strikes from setting up with in 9 inches?


According to the Datasheet i have nope they can't deny deepstrike, the nodes just count as markers from where a unit of Genestealers can pop up anywhere at the end of the movement phase.

Wich may work as a easy way to keep a Genestealer unit safe from harm or counter attack some charges but little else.
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





In fact it's the opposite. They disappear if the enemy gets too close! Last year or so I played a game where I essentially cordoned off my infestation nodes so that the DE wouldn't be able to deep-strike them off the board. Instead the fether flew Razorwings right over them!
   
Made in se
Hungry Little Ripper





Where in the datasheet does it say that Infestation Nodes are just tokens? I can't find anything in the Infestation rule saying that they're merely tokens. They have their own models, although they lack a statline. The rules do not state whether or not they count as models or don't count as models, so I'd say you'll have to talk to your opponent about it or wait for an FAQ. Personally I'd play it as they count as a model for the purpose of deep striking, since it never tells you they aren't models.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Nighttail wrote:
Where in the datasheet does it say that Infestation Nodes are just tokens? I can't find anything in the Infestation rule saying that they're merely tokens. They have their own models, although they lack a statline. The rules do not state whether or not they count as models or don't count as models, so I'd say you'll have to talk to your opponent about it or wait for an FAQ. Personally I'd play it as they count as a model for the purpose of deep striking, since it never tells you they aren't models.
If they lack a statline how can they be models? "It doesn't say they aren't" isn't a valid line of reasoning. The game also doesn't say I can't throw an egg-cress sandwich into a canal to automatically pass a morale test either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/09 14:53:46


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Nighttail wrote:
Where in the datasheet does it say that Infestation Nodes are just tokens? I can't find anything in the Infestation rule saying that they're merely tokens. They have their own models, although they lack a statline. The rules do not state whether or not they count as models or don't count as models, so I'd say you'll have to talk to your opponent about it or wait for an FAQ. Personally I'd play it as they count as a model for the purpose of deep striking, since it never tells you they aren't models.
If they lack a statline how can they be models? "It doesn't say they aren't" isn't a valid line of reasoning. The game also doesn't say I can't throw an egg-cress sandwich into a canal to automatically pass a morale test either.


Prove they're a token then...

(Egg and cress nonsense aside, there's no point in back and forth silliness... just go write to the FAQ hotline and agree with you opponent.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/09 15:25:58


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




They are neither tokens nor models. They are Infestation Nodes. Nothing states they are tokens, and they are excluded from being models by the core rules.

BRB, pg. 174:
"Models move and fight in units, which can have one or more models."

Models are organized into units.

Same page:
"Each unit has a datasheet that lists the characteristics, wargear, and abilities of the models in that unit"

Units and the models in them are defined by datasheets.

The Genestealers datasheet does not list any characteristics, wargear, or abilities of Infestation Nodes. They cannot be models in the Genestealers unit, since the datasheet does not list their stats. They cannot be a separate unit or units, because they do not have datasheets of their own and have no rule stating that they are units independent of the datasheet from which they originate.

Additionally:
BRB, pg. 214:
"To use a points limit, you will need to reference the points values, which are found in a number of Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In these, you will find the points costs for every model and weapon described in that book."

Infestation Nodes do not have points costs in the Codex or Index, therefore they are not models which are described in either book.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/09 19:47:01


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





An Aegis defence line has no stats, but does have a datasheet.

It also has this rule:

Static Defence Network: After it is set up, an Aegis Defence Line (excluding its gun emplacement, if any)
is treated as a terrain feature. It cannot move for any
reason, is not treated as a friendly or enemy model, and cannot be targeted or affected by any attacks or abilities.

What that means I don't know - the Nodes are listed in the datasheet in the same way the Aegis line is in Chapter Approved, but without the caveat that it's not a unit. It's also clearly a thing that you place and can be destroyed governing by the description in the Genestealer datasheet, and they can be friendly or unfriendly - unlike the defence line.

I could see the argument that infestation nodes, positional relays and teleport homers are models for the point of deepstriking (particularly nodes) - these are not safe areas to land in, if something is lurking and they are literally models (and most deep strike forbids appearing near enemy models not units). But if you asked me to put money on the FAQ going one way or the other? It'd be 80%vs 20% on them not counting.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/10 00:59:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Can an infestation node hold an objective, that is something models can do.

The answer is no, because it is not a model.

p.2 of the rulebook tells us:

"The rules and characteristics for all models, and some terrain features, are presented on datasheets which you will need in order to use the models for battle."

There is no datasheer for infestation node, the above rule is also interesting because it differentiates terrain features from models...

regardless there is the possiblity of saying it is listed on a datasheet therefore it is a model.

Wargear is listed on datasheets and are not models, but lets say for arguments sake we stay on that line of reasoning that it is model.

It is a model on the genestealer datasheet, which would make it part of that unit. It has no specific permission to be treated as a seperate unit when deployed, therefore the genestealers would have to remain on coherency with it as there is no permission to ignore coherency for that model in the unit.

Which would be problematic.

There is also the issue that on the datsheet it tells you which models can be in the unit(txt under the characterstic profiles for models that can be in the unit), and how many you can have. Infestation node is not listed there- making it not a model.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/10 02:08:55


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't think that logic follows.

Is the infestation node literally a model - yes. It is a bit of plastic. How that model interacts with the game is in question - but there is no definition for model.

Are the rules for infestation nodes presented in a datasheet - yes - the genestealer one. Genestealer cult familiars are also models (with separate points and stats), but their rules are found in another unit's datasheet.

There's no rule saying that everything on a datasheet is one unit. Many datasheets have rules specifically saying the opposite (the old vehicles squadrons) which the node doesn't have, but then the aegis has a special rule saying that it doesn't count as a friendly or enemy model.

The genestealer datasheet says what the unit contains, and it does not contain the infestation nodes. Just by taking 1+ you get to place four - surely you're not arguing that you can get units of 60+ genestealers/terminators just by taking more than one datasheet.

It is a model, because there is a model of it. It's comes as part of a datasheet, but is not part of a unit. Probably doesn't meet the criteria for unit - but I don't think there is a clear cut answer as to whether it should be counted or not for rules that target models.

RAI, I'd say no - but that's because I've not properly looked at what weird implications it would have outside of deepstrike and excluding odd borderline things from these instances is probably the intended one.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




A key difference is that the Aegis rule would indicate that they are set up like models, but afterwards not treated like models. The Nodes are placed, not set up. And datasheets which include multiple units all specify that they do so.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume they are models. Then what unit or units, if any, would they count as being part of? Do you have to assign each one to a Genestealer unit? Do they form one unit all together but separate from the Genestealers? Are they each a separate unit? Or are they something more bizarre and unique in 8th, like models that are not part of units, or models that are part of all your Genestealer units?

How does coherency work in any of those situations?

Are they part of any Detachment? What if you have Genestealer units in multiple detachments? Can you actually bring them in Matched Play, or do they make you no longer Battle Forged? And does that even matter, since you must pay the points cost for all models in your army, and the Nodes are literally priceless?

And most importantly, what rules justification is there for any of those answers?

Basically, counting them as models raises a lot of questions for which there are no answers, while not counting them as models works within the rules quite nicely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/10 02:24:30


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Tastyfish wrote:
I don't think that logic follows.

Is the infestation node literally a model - yes. It is a bit of plastic. How that model interacts with the game is in question - but there is no definition for model.
It's important to distinguish "model" as defined in standard english dictionary and as defined within the game terms.

The infestation node may be defined as a model within the standard english dictionary, but the term 'model' has different connotation and usage as far as 40k rules go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/10 19:14:25


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 skchsan wrote:
Tastyfish wrote:
I don't think that logic follows.

Is the infestation node literally a model - yes. It is a bit of plastic. How that model interacts with the game is in question - but there is no definition for model.
It's important to distinguish "model" as defined in standard english dictionary and as defined within the game terms.

The infestation node may be defined as a model within the standard english dictionary, but the term 'model' has different connotation and usage as far as 40k rules go.


The term "model" has no 40K definition, not unreasonable to assume then that rules that use that term as part of the fundamental definition of other terms (like units etc) uses the standard English definition.

Other than that I largely agree with Carrots, hence me saying 80% chance of them getting FAQ'd to not count as models. Them, teleport homers and positional relays are clearly their own category of thing - but in the same way that spore mines aren't part of a biovore unit despite coming from that datasheet when they miss, it's not like there is untrodden ground for datasheets to end up covering multiple separate entities and all you'd need to answer his questions is to assign them a point value of 0. Then they're part of an elite choice, but not part of the unit (as the datasheet describes how to use them) and everything else falls into place.

Either assign them a points cost of 0, or add a rule that states these things (inc teleport homers and relays) are markers and not friendly models. Both solutions solve all the issues, but I'd personally go for the latter if you made me choose - four free units is just too useful for board control in my opinion.

But with familiars and ammo runts changing from being tokens in previous editions to effectively extra wounds in this one, I could see the easier "Model is a model" approach that GW might take (for one errata generation at least).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/11 00:51:53


 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Ok, now my Sector Imperialis ruin is a model in game terms too right? Because it's literally a model I assembled.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tastyfish wrote:

The term "model" has no 40K definition, not unreasonable to assume then that rules that use that term as part of the fundamental definition of other terms (like units etc) uses the standard English definition.



That assumption falls apart when you have the statements that Medicinal Carrots pointed out.

BRB, pg. 174:
"Models move and fight in units, which can have one or more models."

Infestation nodes don't move and fight in units.

BRB, pg. 214:
"To use a points limit, you will need to reference the points values, which are found in a number of Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In these, you will find the points costs for every model and weapon described in that book."

Infestation Nodes do not have points costs in the Codex or Index.

Also, the quote provided by Blacktoof

"The rules and characteristics for all models, and some terrain features, are presented on datasheets which you will need in order to use the models for battle."

It differentiated models from terrain features. GW, however, sells many things that would be models by your English definition that they treat as terrain features, not models. All these terrain bits in the Kill team boxes which can also be used in normal 40K games, etc. Deathworld forests and the Eldar runes had 40k definitions for terrain features, and those are separate from models. Stux's Sector Imperialis ruins are terrain features, which are separate from models. Objective markers can be "models", but from game terms they would not be models but terrain features.

From a game term, we see from the quotes above that from a game standpoint "models" are the ones that are a subset of units; a group of models as they say moves and fights in units. An infestation node is not a unit, it is a marker. Therefore, an infestation node does not count as a model under the rules GW has established for a model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/11 14:55:41


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 doctortom wrote:
Tastyfish wrote:

The term "model" has no 40K definition, not unreasonable to assume then that rules that use that term as part of the fundamental definition of other terms (like units etc) uses the standard English definition.



That assumption falls apart when you have the statements that Medicinal Carrots pointed out.

BRB, pg. 174:
"Models move and fight in units, which can have one or more models."

Infestation nodes don't move and fight in units.

Nor do bunkers or trench sections, but they are also referred to as models, this isn't a definition for models, though I'll agree that GW is generally consistent with separating out things that are terrain and things that are models. There's just a couple of oddities around things that are fortifications where the line blurs a little - but we are talking oddities here.


BRB, pg. 214:
"To use a points limit, you will need to reference the points values, which are found in a number of Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In these, you will find the points costs for every model and weapon described in that book."

Infestation Nodes do not have points costs in the Codex or Index.

Also, the quote provided by Blacktoof

"The rules and characteristics for all models, and some terrain features, are presented on datasheets which you will need in order to use the models for battle."

It differentiated models from terrain features. GW, however, sells many things that would be models by your English definition that they treat as terrain features, not models. All these terrain bits in the Kill team boxes which can also be used in normal 40K games, etc. Deathworld forests and the Eldar runes had 40k definitions for terrain features, and those are separate from models. Stux's Sector Imperialis ruins are terrain features, which are separate from models. Objective markers can be "models", but from game terms they would not be models but terrain features.

From a game term, we see from the quotes above that from a game standpoint "models" are the ones that are a subset of units; a group of models as they say moves and fights in units. An infestation node is not a unit, it is a marker. Therefore, an infestation node does not count as a model under the rules GW has established for a model.


The rules for the infestation nodes are presented in a datasheet - just missing a points cost. The language is also different from objective markers and markerlight counters, closer to that of terrain (which is usually just referred to by the name) - which can sometimes be models.
I largely agree with you guys, just pointing out that it isn't clear cut, these things sit in this strange middle ground (T'au homing beacons are placed within 1" of it's unit but are not listed as being part of it - do they stop stealth suits moving?).

Worth an FAQ just to define this types of things.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

There's a bunch of legacy models in FAQs with just Power Levels, and it's been explicitly stated that they won't ever have points costs.

Points not make things models, not all models have them, while still being valid.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blndmage wrote:
There's a bunch of legacy models in FAQs with just Power Levels, and it's been explicitly stated that they won't ever have points costs.

Points not make things models, not all models have them, while still being valid.


Not in matched play if you're using points, which seems to be how most people play.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

 doctortom wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
There's a bunch of legacy models in FAQs with just Power Levels, and it's been explicitly stated that they won't ever have points costs.

Points not make things models, not all models have them, while still being valid.


Not in matched play if you're using points, which seems to be how most people play.


Well maybe that's one of the problems.

Only playing matched play ignores a decent amount of the book, different missions, methods of play, etc.

I've only just started playing with Power Levels (never used them before) as well as the Nairritive missions, and they're really fun! They can require more than two separate econds of pregame chat, if you wanna do Attacker/Defender missions, following the guidelines makes a huge difference, as opposed to two even PL lists, butting heads.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

The nodes simply lack the rules to be considered models.

Are you prepared to argue that smite would have to target an infestation node if it is the closest model?

Since they have no toughness, does that means Jaws of the World Wolf can be used to remove them?

A datasheet (and, therefore, a statline) is required to be a model in the way the game operates.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Marmatag wrote:
The nodes simply lack the rules to be considered models.

Are you prepared to argue that smite would have to target an infestation node if it is the closest model?

Since they have no toughness, does that means Jaws of the World Wolf can be used to remove them?

A datasheet (and, therefore, a statline) is required to be a model in the way the game operates.


Also the issue of whether models in combat would have to pile in or consolidate toward the infestation node if it's the closest enemy "model".
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Despite my leg-pulling upthread, it’s patently clear they’re not to be treated as models rules-wise, guys.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






For those in the future who find this thread via search, the 28-Sep-2018 BRB FAQ clarified this:
Q: Are Teleport Homers or Infestation Nodes friendly models? Can they control objective markers?
A: No to both questions.
   
 
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